Times 24224

Solving time: 15:30

Fairly slow with this one – 30A was my last answer and should probably not have been such a struggle. Others I found hard were 21D, 27, 20, 18. Only 6D went in without full understanding of wordplay. Plenty of good clues here, several based on just chopping up words in unexpected ways, and very little general knowlege needed – so I may be thrashed by the youngsters again.

Across
1 CAS(H)E,W – H=hard? As on (UK) pencils
4 TRI- = three,FLING=cast
10 A LA BASTER – alabaster is one of two substances, but both are white.
11 LOSER=flop. Reversal of “re sol” = “regarding, sun”
12 INDOMITABLE = (ambition led)* – easy but very neat little clue
15 MUST-SEE – (set)* in muse=inspiration. Strangely, COED doesn’t have must-see, just an entry for must-, with other post-hyphen verbs. So whether a “must-see” is a great picture, tourist sight or movie is up for grabs.
17 TRANCE – change of leader for “France”
19 SCRUFF – 2 defs
21 SIGNORA – reverse hidden word. As indicated in the comments, the “young” is strictly over-specific and the lecher implied by the surface reading should be happy to survey ladies of any age from behind.
23 (cof)FEE See jimbo’s comment for a red-herring answer
24 TONS ILL = evidence of epidemic,IT IS = “I can confirm”. A clue that now looks a bit of a sick joke but was almost certainly written several months ago.
26 “IN CAN” describes what (celluloid) film ultimately is.
27 SUPERHERO – anag. of “up here so” + R = “computer’s back”. Scrupulously fair punctuation here – some setters/editors might hyphenate the “back up” in the clue, to make the surface reading more convicing.
29 HOW=a question,IT,ZER(o). Cryptic meaning requires wordplay to be read in the past tense – “it has come to nothing, briefly”.
30 LEG=on,END=purpose. Overseas/new solvers baffled by leg=on, see the cricket part of my UK references page.
 
Down
1 CHAR(IS)M,A – should be easy as “blocking appeal” doesn’t quite hold water in the surface reading.
2 S=(compass) point,HARD. I’m sure others looked for a G???? word.
5 RARE=fine,TASTE=bit (of food). “rarebit” = Welsh rarebit.
6 F(ALLE(NAN)GE)L. “Russian doll” clue, with FL. = Florida making a fairly rare appearance in the “state” role.
7 1P SOFA=”very cheap furniture item”,C(T=tons)O. Nicely silly. “because of that” translates this Latin tag.
8 G(YR.)ATE – simple construction but nicely done cricket surface and opener=GATE is simple but original.
9 STAT(U)E – easy enough when you eliminate “static” as a possible answer. “Still work” is the def.
13 MO(S,QUITO)NET – the city of Quito often appears in mozzie clues.
16 SACRED COW – CD punning on low=”to moo”.
18 PA’S SWORD is what’s in dad’s scabbard
20 FI(NESS)E – annoying to take ages over this as I’m normally quick on the card-game stuff. Finessing is essentially guessing in Bridge. In the classic example, you lead low as declarer from a hand opposite one holding Ace and Queen. The hope is that the first opponent has the King. If he doesn’t play it, you play the Queen and keep the Ace to beat his King later, gaining a trick.
21 SK(IMP)Y – “what’s up” is simply the sky.
22 OF FISH = “Piscean?”
25 THERE – 2 defs
28 RYE – whiskey rather than whisky, and a Cinque Port in East Sussex

36 comments on “Times 24224”

  1. Glad to see I am not last to comment today. Also glad to see that the great PB saw the SE corner as the hard bit. Yet again unable to take a real reading as enforced breaks for conversations and phone calls rendered it meaningless. I guess again about 40 mins in total, with 20 being spent on that wretched corner.

    Had RIO as the port for a while on some vague notion of a club or record called “whisky rio” but was never happy with it. Scabbard perpetually returned sheath in my head but took ages to make that simple step to sword – for some reason i kept thinking of archers??

    30 was the last in here as well, and I have to say I dont like the “One always remembered” part – I can see where it is coming from, but it since legends are by definition cultural and variable things, I can’t agree with the logic. I see them more as stories, albeit with some “historical” basis, and you wouldnt describe eg. Oliver Twist as “always remembered”. Likewise the modern iconic use for sports stars or musicians – the remembrance is quite specific to a certain group of devotees.

    Perhaps I am just grumpy as it was the last one in…..

  2. After receiving much encouragement from bloggers yesterday was determined to finish today and did manage it but with much use of dictionary and expletives (2.5 hours including quotidian morning activities. Did I detect similar style to yesterday eg ingenious defs and w = with?
    Guessed entries without fully understanding:-
    Must-see
    Fallen angel (very bitty)
    Skimpy
    Legend (the leg bit despite being a cricket fan)
    Ipso facto ( the ip bit for 1 penny)

    Inexplicably took me ages to get Rye

    1. You certainly detected important elements in the Times style. But one of the current xwd ed’s rules for shuffling his pack of puzzles is supposed to be that no setter comes up twice in succession in the daily puzzles sequence.
  3. An excellent puzzle with lots of inventive and original clues. 35 minutes to solve.

    Another example of small words having the capacity to cause mayhem arises at 23A where Cha(rge) also fits the clue. Note to new solvers – don’t write them in without checking letters.

    It’s difficult to pick out the best clues but I liked the misleading use of “computers back up”, the scabbard and the 1P sofa jokes and the excellent construction of CASHEW.

    Pedant’s note for Peter. Good bridge players would reckon to do better at finessing than just guessing. It’s all in the bidding and watching what opponents do and as important don’t play.

    1. quite so. ‘Tis ages since I played bridge. If we ever meet I must teach you Skat – absurdly complicated at first but a great three-hander. The scoring system means that capturing the 10s (equivalent to Kings) in the three side-suits is often a major factor in deciding the result.
      1. Sounds good. I have very vague memories of two German lads taking me apart whilst sitting in a fog bound German airport.

        As far as bridge is concerned you can get really very good bridge playing software these days. I use Bridge Baron and it never throws the cards at me!

  4. A very good puzzle which I found quite hard – about 50 mins all up. There were many clues where I thought of the correct answer but deferred writing it in because I couldn’t see the wordplay for a while (8, 24,26 and 30 for example). I found the right-hand half went in first, with the NW corner last to go.

    In 27ac, in addition to Peter’s comment about punctuatation, “screen saver” is also quite properly not hyphenated.

    A minor quibble – a SIGNORA is not really a “young” lady, which would be a “signorina”.

  5. In Italian, SIGNORA means married lady of any age, not “young” lady. There seems to be an error here, or am I missing something?

    Thank you Peter for explaining the IP in IPSO FACTO. There were many clever clues today as everyone seems agreed.

  6. 40 minutes for all but 4ac 8dn and 30ac and about another 20 to crack them. Until faced with these last three I never felt stuck and made steady progress so in all it was an enjoyable experience. I thought the standard and inventiveness of the clues was excellent with no obscure words or arcane bits of knowledge needed to solve them, just perseverence.
  7. 41 min with on-line help. Just too clever for me. The left hand side went in without too much difficulty, but then (as too often happens these days) the darkness descended. Absolutely no quibbles, a great challenge.
  8. I think Kurihan’s comment must have been entered when I was typing mine above. We agree that the clue is incorrect for SIGNORA, but I must correct him too.
    SIGNORINA is the Italian word for an unmarried woman of any age. The Italian word for “young lady” is RAGAZZA.
    1. I was at work so could only consult the OED which gives for SIGNORINA:

      “The Italian term of respect applicable to a young unmarried lady.”

      I do not know Italian, but I suspect it is rather like in French, where Madame is a married woman and Mademoiselle an unmarried woman, but when a lady reaches “a certain age” but is still unmarried she is called “Madame” out of respect.

      1. Dear Kurihan,

        My wife is Italian, and I checked with her before posting my second comment. She has an unmarried lady friend in Torino who must be nearer 80 than 70, and is addressed as Signorina. Regarding your comment about French practice, I can also produce a counter-example. Before our wedding many years ago in Torino, I remember my wife’s mother who was French (married to an Italian) addressing my Father’s unmarried sister, aged about 65, as Mademoiselle. Practice varies from place to place, and from class to class, as it does in English.

  9. 29:03, with the last 18 minutes (!) spent on the pair 30ac/28dn (LEGEND/RYE); after 27 minutes I looked up ‘rye’ in a dictionary (to make sure it was whiskey) and ‘Rye’ in an atlas (to make sure it was a port).  So, a combination of general knowledge failure (Rye is tiny, but I guess it’s a tourist destination; and I was discouraged by Don McLean’s “whisky and rye”) and an inexcusable failure to think of LEG for “on”, despite realizing that “purpose” could be END.

    The comma in 1ac (CASHEW) isn’t necessary for the wordplay and rather spoils the surface reading.  ‘Three’ for TRI- (4ac) is a bit dubious, as is ‘Ruthless’ for INDOMITABLE (12ac).  MUST-SEE (15ac) is defined by example.  SIGNORA (21ac) is wrongly defined (or perhaps defined by example).  The first half of 26ac (INCAN) requires the solver to supply “here” or “this”.  SHARD (2dn) is defined by example.  In 9dn (STATUE), U is indicated by “widely accepted”, but the relevant sense is limited to the upper classes.  And many of the surface readings are poor.

    For me, then, not one to cherish.

  10. I dont know if it was becasue i was niursing a sore head this morning but this was a tricky tricky puzzle. some byzantine clues like Fallen Angel and Mosquito net to test the quickies…tooka lokng time and had to resosrt to some on line tools. should have seen Trifling much faster . thought this was a hard puzzle and pleased to have to done. Actually didnt think much of several clues like Tonsillitis and Trance but then took ages to see simple clues like Fit and also want to moan about Gyrate but probably wont!. not this hard please!
  11. 13:10, beating PB and therefore making me a youngster! I thought this was a superb offering, with much deviousness and a few laughs (1p sofa, A la baster, pa’s sword, tri-fling etc). I’m ashamed to say that I couldn’t for the life of me work out why 23a was FEE, and I can’t explain why FIT caused me so many problems. GYRATE was last in.

    Thanks for this one, setter

  12. Seeing Peter’s time of over 15 minutes, I’m not surprised that I took 45 minutes. I agree there were some good clues, but there were others that I did not like. In 10 “provided as” (or “as”) for ‘a la’ seems weak. I didn’t like “I can confirm” for ITIS, and “offered” in the past tense as a link jarred with me. Not all film is ultimately in a can(26). Initially I thought 17 ambiguous, but the placing of the comma rescues it from that criticism.
    On the plus side, I was more appreciative of 4, 23, the definition in 27, 1 down, 5 and 9.
  13. 50 mins at a slow but steady pace. Laughed at the same places as the other penguin and also at “tons ill” and “big screen saver”. Also liked CASHEW, HOWITZER & LEGEND, but COD is MUST-SEE, for its semi &lit added bonus, never before seen footage.
  14. A not particularly speedy 40 minutes, but it’s the first one I’ve completed correctly this week, so I’m not going to complain! At a push, I can always blame the blood test this morning which no doubt has upset my already fragile solving skills!

    Didn’t understand the wordplay for 30ac, 6d, 7d, 13d, 20d before I got here. 20d was the most difficult I thought – a very obscure definition, and FIE is an even more obscure word to throw into the wordplay, so that the eventual answer was a (lucky) guess.

    Lots of nice clues throughout. COD 22ac, with 4ac a close runner up.

  15. A small but significant port – one of the original Cinque Ports and viable fishing fleet, scallops a speciality. 20 mins including interruptions, giggled at 18d, 30a last in.
  16. 12.05 minutes which seems quick in context of above comments.Part reason for this is entering quite a few answers (20,24,27,29 etc)without working out why (or knowing if) they were right.I almost entered CHA at 23 (see Jimbo)but getting 16 showed me this was wrong – given a straight choice I would have plumped for it instead of FEE – the usual Tea/Coffee preference?
    I liked big screen saver as definition for SUPERHERO.
    Like Peter last to go in was LEGEND which was especially difficult due to the -E-E-D possibilities.Took a couple of minutes to work this out and it raised a smile.
  17. Well, dimwit here threw in ‘static’ for 9d without bothering to work through the clue, which left me clutching at straws for M_S_/S_C at 15a. Happily, I found the correct answer: MUSO SIC, which is Latin for “I think it’s wicked, innit”.

    Otherwise, about 21 challenging minutes.

    1. If it’s any consolation (it never really is) , Sotira, I had also (mentally) inked in STATIC in my slapdash way before getting 15a.
  18. No accurate time as I went away from and came back to the puzzle during the course of the morning. Suffice to say I found it a challenge.I take some consolation from the fact that, with the exception of SKIMPY at 21dn, which came fairly quickly, the clues that gave me most trouble were the same as those listed by Peter B in his blog. There many clues with both ingenious wordplay and cleverly offbeat definitions – e.g. SUPERHERO at 27ac. That and LEGEND at 30ac were the last two to go in. But I’m surprised that so far only markthakkar seems to have objected strongly to the D by E at 15ac, which strikes me as bordering on the unfair. A “wonderful picture” might well be an example of something that is a MUST-SEE, but a MUST-SEE is not a definition of a “wonderful picture”, being as Peter B notes an epithet that could be applied to any number of things.
    1. I guess the folk who dislike D by E don’t grumble every time because they know it’s unlikely to make much difference to Richard Browne’s policy. My guess is that the only thing that would have done was a bad reaction from “ordinary solvers”. My guess is that this didn’t and won’t happen.

      The “must-see picture” referred to may have been the movie type of “picture” – Google searches suggest that “must-see movie” is a more common phrase than “must-see picture”, let alone “must-see painting”.

      1. I’m sure you’re right that the type of “picture” referred to here is a “movie” – that was how I read it also. Generally, I’m fairly relaxed about D by E, but this particular specimen seemed to me to be stretching the envelope a bit – but that was probably only because it took me so long to crack the clue! As you say, Richard Browne’s policy is clearly to allow D by E within reason, so there’s probably not much point in whingeing overmuch. Quibbles about the definition apart, the wordplay in 15ac was rather good, I thought.
        1. I hestitate to jump in here, because the caravan has moved on, and usually when I do jump in I only manage to display my ignorance, but…

          My picture of D by E is a small circle (representing the E) inscribed in a larger one (the D) and an arrow leading from the small circle to the large one. I.e. E is a proper subset of D and E is clued to get D.

          In this case, we have two circles with a non-null intersection; one circle labelled “wonderful picture” and the other “must-see”. There are wonderful pictures which aren’t must-sees (cinema classics, Water Lilies etc) and there are must-sees which aren’t wonderful pictures (Taj Mahal, Doubtful Sound, etc). Is it not possible to view this example as a case where the arrow leads from the outside of the “wonderful picture” circle to the intersection (which wouldn’t be D by E), rather than the arrow leading from the intersection to the “must-see” circle (which would).

          If this example is D by E, then so must clueing dog to get setter, since a dog is but one example of a setter, just as a setter is but one example of a dog.

          1. Most of us seem happy with the existence of multiple things labelled “setter” and leaving it to the solver to determine which kind is required in a particular clue.

            Most readers will know that I’m relaxed about UDBE (unindicated definition by example), as sometimes used in Times puzzles. Unless I’m being thick, any objection must either come from a desire to do the same as previous crosswords or authorities like Ximenes or Azed (which for me is a weak reason), or from an idea that there’s a thing called “definition” which exists outside cryptic crosswords and doesn’t allow UDBE but does allow other things we do in xwd defs. I don’t think there is. It seems that UDBE is not used in good-quality non-cryptic crosswords, and that for me is about as strong a reason for rejecting UDBE as I can come up with. But then we allow other stuff in cryptics that isn’t used in plain def puzzles, so again this is a weak reason for me. The same applies to any objection based on dictionary definitions not using UDBE – they don’t do other things that are accepted in cryptic clue definitions. So I’m not conviced that “definition” in a cryptic xwd context means anything other than “whatever is commonly accepted as a ‘definition’ part of a cryptic clue”. The sort of logic that justifies a principle like “parts of speech must match”, or “nearly all indirect anagrams are unfair” simply isn’t there for me.

            Edited at 2009-05-14 04:21 pm (UTC)

          2. Wonderful stuff! Definitely a MUST-READ comment. But I’m afraid your logical reasoning is way over my head, and I remain unconvinced. In my book, dog describes a whole group of related animals, of which a setter is but one type or example, so dog cannot be an example of a setter on the principle that the generic cannot be an example of the particular. But I fear this is all getting too serious. When all is said and done, I’m not too fussed about D by E – provided I solve the clue in question fairly quickly!
  19. This was a difficult return to the daily crossword after two days when I’ve been too busy to look at it. I thought that there were too many iffy definitions although many answers raised a smile when I finally got them. Unlike most, my problems were in the SW. Despite Jimbo’s comment, I thought it was reasonable to put in Cha at 23, not just because it fits but because it is a common crossword answer. This gave me problems with the fish and the cow until I reappraised my decision.

    I had all the checkers for Legend early on but left it till last. I finally wrote in Legend, not understanding the leg bit.

  20. Sorry. In the last sentence of my previous comment, I meant of course to say that while a “wonderful picture” might well be an example of something that is a MUST-SEE, it is not a definition of a MUST-SEE, which as Peter B notes is an epithet that could be applied to any number of things.

  21. About 45 minutes for a very clever puzzle. Didn’t get the wordplay for 6D until reading PB’s blog, thanks. The definitions used by today’s setter are imaginative and entertaining, so my hat’s off to him/her. COD: SUPERHERO. Regards all, gotta run.
  22. I found this puzzle less of a struggle than usual, which usually means it’s been a stroll in the park for most on here, but not this time it would seem. Also interesting is that I really got going in the SE corner which is where others seem to have struggled!

  23. For me 18dn was ironic.
    Spent all last night e-mailing the Times and the RBS trying to get on.
    The 18dn just wouldn’t work.
    Took me about 35 minutes when I finally found it.

    McText of Minjup

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