Times 24225

49 comments on “Times 24225”

1. I will take the plunge then… I did struggle with this one, but finally got there in 44 min, but with assistance on the key 5 dn. I knew of the bottlenose dolphin, But the BOTTLENOSE WHALE was too big to swallow. Fortunately this cracked open the ones I was struggling with in the east. COD: 5 ac BE A DEVIL or 9 ac SMOLLETT. In fact a number of quite good if somewhat contrived clues.
2. 13:20.  I foolishly allowed myself to play Baldur’s Gate last night, so I only had 4 hours’ sleep.  As a result, I’m in a poor position to judge the difficulty of this puzzle – it felt hard, but then I did spend a while trying to remember what day it was for 5dn (in which “today” gave NOW for BOTTLENOSE WHALE).  I initially had TOWNEE instead of TOWNIE at 12ac, but luckily it looked wrong enough for me to rethink it.

   The last to go in was POPPET (1ac); PET meaning “bad temper” is still unfamiliar.  Other unfamiliar things were SETT as a paving stone (9ac SMOLLETT, who rang just enough of a bell for me to get him), LIST meaning “border” (13ac LENINIST), and the fact that Bach was a LUTHERAN (8dn).

   I don’t understand why “Airman” gives PO in 3dn (POLITELY), or why 6dn is DROP OUT, or why 14dn is SPEARMINT.  These are no doubt my own fault.  I also don’t understand why OEUVRE (20dn) should be the setter’s own work, which I suspect is the setter’s fault.  And it’s a shame that the use of “two” as anagram fodder in 4dn (TAE KWON DO) forced the definition to use “Koreans“; the bare adjective (masquerading as a noun) would have given a more accurate definition.

   I liked 5ac (BE A DEVIL) and the straightforward 19dn (FORCEPS).

   1. A stinker. I agree about oeuvre and did not like “for” in clue and answer of 19d. Stiff vocab and GK. PO pilot officer, I think, st outside pearm(a)in for 14d. 6dn may be cricket, 22 out?
      1. Thanks for the explanations of PO and PEARM[A]IN – I’m relieved to see that I didn’t know either of them after all.
      2. I hope someone has a better explanation of DROP OUT. The best I could see was that 22ac contains IN U(niversity)and if one withrdaws from a uiniversity one “drops out”. I really hope that’s not it.
      3. Agree a struggle. Given the level of difficulty elsewhere, I thought the, for me at least, ludicrous assumption that “forswear” sounds anything like “force-where” tipped this from hard-but-probably-fair to an irritating display of smug prejudice. bc
3. I’m not going first on this one!
4. It has just occurred to me that “twenty-two” in 6D could be a sporting reference. Could a rugby player “drop out” (or perform a “drop out”) from the 22 yard line?
   1. Most certainly!
   2. Well done!  Is “at twenty-two” a standard elliptical phrase in rugby for “at twenty-two metres” or “at the twenty-two metre line”?
      1. When I played rugby the drop-out was synonomous with a “twenty-five”. I don’t know if the terminology survived metrification.
         1. I’m sure that 22 is a conversion to metres.
      2. Neither as far as I know, but “twenty-two” is used for the line and drop-outs happen there, so “activity at twenty-two”=drop-out, just as “activity at library”=reading.

         More 22m stuff from Auntie.

5. Has someone upset the editor?
   Found almost impossibly hard but persevered and used aids finally to complete (3 hours) with half a dozen guesses. Subsequent looks have revealed reasons for all but DROP OUT out and still don’t get OWN in townee. SETT not in my dictionary, thought bottlenose whale somewhat clumsy and not thrilled with H(AND)SOME.

   Beginner learning point for today OS for map.

   1. The OWN in 12 ac is a synonym for have. So it is OWN to take part in TIE.
   2. Not sure about your exact objection at 24 – your “H(AND)SOME” suggests a container but there isn’t one here. H=husband, then “AND SOME” is colloq. for “to say the least”.

      If your dictionary lacks “sett”, you probably need a bigger one. COED is big enough in this case. But unless “and some” is in the current Collins, you need Chambers to find it (in the form “and then some”).

      1. Yes. Sorry Peter, I am still trying to get used to cruciverbalist syntax and jargon (this blog being my introduction to such as wordplay, indicators et al). Have now found SETT in COED (8th Ed) albeit cross-referred to SET (13th def.). 11th Ed and Chambers in my “stocking filler” list.

         Today’s puzzle daunting but easy to forget that just 3 weeks ago it would take me all day to finish comparatively easy puzzles, if I could finish at all. This progress is entirely due to this blog which adds much to the pleasure of the daily challenge.

6. I found this one hard going. Eventually finished in 16 mins but then spent more time trying to work out the word play in several clues. Thought OEUVRE was rather weakly clued, unless I missed some nuance of the clue.
   1. I agree, I had everything else in c20 mins then just couldn’t get OEUVRE. If it has to be done with a cryptic def., I’d have preferred ‘all one’s/your own work’. Otherwise, the WHALE held me up quite a lot, while for some reason the rugby ref. in 6D came instantly. A very good crossword, clear COD for me is 24A.

      Tom B.

7. 17:44 for me so well done Mark & Richard. Much trouble thinking of the whale, and then the last few solved were 15/22/20 as a group, 23 as a loner, and 7/10/6 in that order as another group.

   But I did eventually remember the Scots tones of Bill McLaren linking “twenty-two” and “drop-out” in Rugby Union commentaries.

   8: Having attended one Lutheran service with lots of Bach in it, my impression was that for them, JSB is the fifth evangelist.

   I’m hoping Richard’s KWAN for KWON typo is a blogging error rather than a record of carelessness matching my “de/du choix” embarrassment.

   Not too bothered by 19A or 20, except that “All one’s own work” might have been fun with the Times-style ONE’S popping up in the clue rather than the answer. In particular, for the first vowel in “forswear”, Chambers gives a choice between the neutral vowel and the one in “for”. With the latter, the only difference from “force wear” is timing and emphasis, both of which I’m happy to handle.

   1. Tae Kwon D’Oh!
8. 65 mins for me, with about 15 of those staring at pretty much blank space until I got slowing going, picking up speed as checking letters confirmed earlier surmises. I might have given up had I not been constantly surprised and entertained. I think the only thing I didn’t know at the end was pearmain=apple and list=border and I lacked Richard’s brilliant insight at 6d. I very much liked LUTHERAN, BE A DEVIL, HANDSOME and TOWNIE amongst others, but ALICANTE was last in and my COD. Thanks to the setter for a solid workout.
9. Well I completed about as much as I normally do (yet to complete one – but getting closer). Didn’t get Dorrit, Smollett or Spearmint (which I should have guessed)

   Guessed a couple of answers: Poppet, Oeuvre.

   As soon as I read Bach something triggered my brain for Lutheran, but then couldn’t complete the word play.

   For 6d though I entered ‘Duck Out’ on the basis of 22 – two little ducks, even though I initially wanted to go with ‘Drop’.

10. must be TAE KWON DO (not KWAN) looking at the letters in the anagram.
    1. Yes, thanks. Your posting must have crossed with my editing this correction in up top.
11. I’m glad I had more spare time this morning as today’s puzzle was a three pipe problem. There was plenty of difficult general knowledge: I’ve never read Tobias Smollett but, fortunately, he does crop up in crosswords from time to time. It was no help to have the difficult SETT in the wordplay. This is a difficult grid with lots of double unchies. Two such answers, Admonish and Handsome were my last in.

    I assumed that “activity at twenty-two” referred to the word university in the clue, rather than the answer, to 22. In fact, having got drop-out first, I spent a long time trying to justify Brunel at 22. I’m sure Richard is right about the rugby explanation but it is possible that the setter deliberately gave us a choice of methods to arrive at the answer. The BBC’s potted rules of Rugby, quoted above, are a bit misleading on the subject. Rule 13:10 states “A drop-out may be taken anywhere on or behind the 22 metre line”, so “activity at twenty-two” is not quite accurate.

    1. The 18th Century Novel seminar at Yale grad school required the reading of all the novels of Smollett.

       I still retain a vague impression of the hero dangling from the windowsill in his nightshirt while the villain empties a chamberpot on him.

12. I ran out of time at about an hour with all but 15, 16, 22 and 24 completed though it turned out later that I mixed up the A and the unchecked O in 4dn. On arrival at the office I used on-line assistance to polish of the SW corner.

    I think I understand it all now, but looking for a cross-reference between 22ac which mentions university and 6dn, actually helped me to get DROP-OUT if not for the right reason.

    1. Me too. I got to 6dn before I’d tackled the bottom half, and looking at the clue for 22, thought that university could be the definition, and plumped for DROP OUT at 6 for entirely the wrong reasons.

       About 90 mins all told. I struggled most in the SW corner, but last one in was TOWNIE, despite having had all the checking letters for some time. COD was 24.

13. Interrupted throughout, so no time, but felt fairly challenging. I got two wrong – 20ac / 19d where I went for OPUSES and FEELERS, with no justification at all for the latter other than that it fitted, and vaguely matched Pincers. COD 24ac.
14. Real struggle today , about 30 minutes. I had CONFIT at first for 1 for no good reason. 5a and 5d, 13,7,8,25 – wait a minute , nearly every clue took some thinking out and the SE corner was a struggle with OEUVRE and ADMONISH eventually coming to allow the poem to be entered. Last to go in was 23.
    At first I thought the twenty-two was a poor reference to the university clue at 22 – so thanks for the explanation!
    1. I now remember that I wanted to put in COMFIT at 1A for a while. It’s a sweet, and “fit” can be close enough to bad temper. But fortunately I took the time to try to justify COM = music. And found I couldn’t.
       1. Sorry that was me. Work computer being temperamental today.
15. Often difficult puzzles are the best fun. This one is an exception. I found it a 40 minute slog and apart from the old Koreans, which I thought very good, a bit of a drag all round.

    You’re all being much too polite about “activity at twenty-two” which I certainly didn’t understand. If the answer is something to do with the measurements on a rugby pitch then it’s a nonsense as far as I’m concerned. And both OEUVRE and the homophone are weak.

    Not one to remember as far as I’m concerned.

    1. “activity at twenty-two” is not nonsense! It’s difficult, because the setter uses something original (and well-hidden) rather than a hackneyed old trick like “leg=on”, which needs just as much explanation but has been used in thousands of crosswords, so only confuses those who don’t know enough about cricket (yet).

       I can’t believe anyone watching a Six nations match on the box could miss the two important points here, which are all you need: 1. Something called a drop-out happens at the 22-metre line (my impression is that it happens at least half a dozen times in a typical game). 2. The line is informally called the “twenty-two”. The only possible complaint is that compared to cricket or golf, Rugby Union is an obscure sport. At least in the UK, I don’t think this is true. For what it’s worth, being of Mark T’s build (at school at least), my experience of Rugby is limited to the idiot box and a couple of games seen with friends who are far more Rugby-mad than I am.

       1. I’m with Peter on this one. I’ve never played rugby and don’t really know the rules, but ‘twenty-two’ rang a bell and I thought its use was fresh and ingenious.

          Tom B.

          1. I think it’s fine now that I understand it, or at least no worse than references to cricket, about which I know even less. Though “from” is not my favourite link word for a two-definitions clue.

             But who is this Mark T that Peter refers to as having an exemplary build? Mark Twain? Mark Thatcher?

             1. Mark Thakkar – who told us a while ago that he’d hated Rugby since being “a skinny boy at a private school” or similar.

                Edited at 2009-05-14 04:30 pm (UTC)

                1. Egg-chasing’s not really my sport but I thought “activity at twenty-two” was marvellous. About 11 mins with 3 of those on OEUVRE at the end; the clue confused me and I spent too long looking at the letters in place before trying wacky options between the ‘O’ and the ‘U’.
                2. Yes, that would be me – small quite generally, though, rather than skinny as such.  The sort of build that makes you want to avoid being charged at by people like this.  Thankfully a studied ignorance of rugby isn’t much of a handicap in this game, as crossword setters seem to prefer more refined sports like cricket.  </bait>
       2. I think one of the problems with this clue is that we have recently had to become alert to the interchangeability in clues of numbers written as numbers and numbers written in words. As I understand it they conventionally meant different things. I’m not sure if that is due to a change of convention, poor editing or problems with production. (I think there have sometimes been differences between the printed form and the on-line form.) That meant that we could not dismiss the possible cross-reference to 22ac which I have to say was the first thing that sprang to my mind.

16. 24:42 .. A mixed bag, but I was left feeling a bit irritated by the ten minutes of my life spent trying to find a rational for OEUVRE beyond the rather unsuccessful cryptic reading. I was thinking it must be O + something, as ‘zero + yours’ or whatever.

    Thanks to all for explaining DROP-OUT. I used to enjoy watching rugby but have lost interest in the professional era, so twenty-five would likely have rung the bell left unrung by twenty-two.

    I liked the surface for 9a SMOLLETT, so COD for that one.

17. No apology required. Don’t worry about the jargon too much. If you can read music, I’ll bet you do so without thinking of words like “minim” – the symbols say it all. You only need “minim” to avoid long descriptions when talking to other players. Same deal …
18. would say that was the hardest since I started looking at this blog (sundays not included) – stared blankly at 9 and a lot of the SW corner for most of the day (when I had a minute or two) so only probably finished in an hour plus as well as resorting to the dreaded aids when I got home to get SMOLLETT (never heard of) and OEUVRE (which I didnt get really). Also one mistake by guessing TO AUBURN whilst really struggling late on (the URN being the trophy for beginners – a bit like the plate and bowl and stuff in rugby tournaments!)
19. Regards all. Sorry for the late post, but work duties are limiting my time. And it’s no real fun to announce that I’m undone today, with 3 errors, no less. I misspelled TAE KWON DO by ignoring the anagram’s letters, at 1A I had no idea of the sweet, and faced with ?O? for ‘music’, I guessed with ‘bop’. I haven’t heard of a POPPET before. And I remain flummoxed by TOWNIE, which I considered but couldn’t (still can’t) make fit the wordplay. My guess there was ‘bounce’, for no really good reason. About 45 minutes to get that result.
    1. Fuller explanation of 12A (Have to take part in fixture, not one for one’s country (6))

       Wordplay

       Have = OWN

       to take part in = inserted inside

       fixture = TIE
       so T(OWN)IE
       Definition

       not one for one’s country – translates as something like “you prefer your town”
20. Although there are sweets called Poppets, the definition here is more likely to be “sweet” as an affectionate term of address like “sweetheart” or “pet”.
21. Thanks very much for getting an explanation of what DROP OUT has to do with twenty-two. I guessed the answer but never would have understood without your blog.
22. No problem with the DROP OUT at 6d. I spent a long time trying to link it to 22a but then the penny dropped about the 22m line (25yard) in Rugby Union. Top effort from the setter in my book.

    However the poem at 16d was too tortuous for me. T S Eliot = TOM containing gold (AU) and then trophy usually for beginners (TU) and bung – name (N) on the end. You ‘avin’ a laugh? Yes probably. I have, at least, learned what T stands for in T S Eliot and that John Keats wrote a poem called To AUTUMN.

    20a All my own work = OEUVRE – it is still beyond me how this clue works.

    There are 2 “easies” not in the blog:

    17a Plant reeds at first in wet ground (4)
    FE R N

    17d Measure of property for agent to shift (8)
    FRONTAGE. Anagram of (for agent).

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