Times Quick Cryptic 1791 by Oink

Author   ChrisPosted on Categories Quick Cryptic

Well, I have to say I made a real pig’s ear of this one and put it down to a bad day at the office. I would be telling porkies if I said I found it easy – at my usual target time, the grid was still littered with unsolved answers. There was a lot of grunt work to grind out some answers (including the two hiddens) and there was a sting in the curly tail when I just couldn’t see loi 22ac until the ‘vacation’ clicked. I, naturally, now expect everyone to say how easy it was. For me it was hats off to Oink who left a calling card at 20dn. 18 (long) minutes it took in the end. COD 7dn.

So let’s chop to the chase and see the answers.

ACROSS

1. No one charged for this public brawl? (4-3-3)
FREE-FOR-ALL – if no one is charged then it’s free for all.
8. A foolish person going round Brazil? (7)
NUTCASE – a nutcase goes round a Brazil nut.
9. One who photographs Her Majesty for The Times perhaps (5)
PAPER – one who photographs (PAP – paparazzi), Her Majesty (ER).
10. Sailor posed outside front of library (4)
SALT – posed (SAT) outside (L)ibrary.
11. Pudding confusion at posh boy’s school (4,4)
ETON MESS – confusion (MESS) at posh boy’s school (ETON). The strawberries I’d have but not the cream or meringue.
13. Maybe mum or dad given monthly payment (6)
PARENT – dad (PA), monthly payment (RENT).
14. Finds time for healthy activity vicar doesn’t like? (4,2)
FITS IN – healthy (FIT), activity vicar doesn’t like (SIN). I couldn’t separated healthy and activity for some time and the definition didn’t seem at all obvious.
17. Revolution helping to protect religious books (8)
ROTATION – helping (RATION) to protect religious books (OT).
19. Raised money for the speaker (4)
BRED – homophonone (for the speaker) of money=bread. I’m at a loss as to why I couldn’t see this for ages. I suspect I was having one of those days.
21. Manage to return, reaching hotel in time (5)
EPOCH – manage – cope – to return (EPOC), hotel (H).
22. Moan about a lady on vacation- something not quite right? (7)
ANOMALY –  anagram (about) of MOAN, a (A), lady on vacation (L)ad(Y) – well, of course it is!
23. Farmers opt mistakenly for unsuitable agricultural terrain (10)
PERMAFROST – anagram (mistakenly) of FARMERS OPT.

DOWN

2. Unnerve Republican who’s got a nasty bite? (7)
RATTLER – unnerve (RATTLE), Republican (R).
3. Departed, heading north with others (2,2)
ET AL – departed – late – heading northe in this down clue (ET AL).
4. Newcomer talks, getting round code of silence (6)
OMERTA – the first two words’ get round’ the answer – nec(OMER TA)lks.
Dnk this but absolutely nothing made any sense at all so I found the hidden in the end – Collins has a conspiracy of silence.
5. Bit at end of book that might be taken out? (8)
APPENDIX – the organ may be removed if you’re unlucky.
6. LSE admitting a professor’s first mistake (5)
LAPSE – LSE (LSE) admitting a (A) (P)rofessor’s
7. Contemporary description of Dec 25th? (7-3).
PRESENT DAY – a rather wonderful double definition which I got from ‘contemporary’ (PRESENT DAY) and wondered if the puzzle was meant to have been published a few weeks ago. Writing up the blog, I relished the full pleasure of the second definition (day on which presents are given – PRESENT DAY). I do feel as if my brain can’t have been on during this solve.
8. Koreans pry awfully – and so do I! (4,6)
NOSY PARKER – anagram (awfully) of KOREANS PRY. Partial &lit where the subject of the definition pries awfully.
12. One grabbing chest ran off (8)
SNATCHER – anagram (off) of CHEST RAN.
15. Almost certain to go top (7)
SURPASS – almost certain (SUR)e, go (PASS).
16. Some tracks on a tape and a work by Mozart? (6)
SONATA – another hidden (some) in track(S ON A TA)pe.
18. Soldiers having miserable time in retreat (5)
TROOP – miserable (POOR) – and time (T) backwards – in retreat.
20. Acorn eater rather a dull chap, I hear (4)
BOAR – homophone (I hear) of dull chap – bore

80 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic 1791 by Oink”

  1. I had a similar experience, taking several minutes on my last three (BRED, FITS IN, and SURPASS). Nothing really tricky about them and since it is a public holiday here in the US, I can’t even claim a bad day at the office. Not that I’ve been to the office for nearly a year.
  2. DNK LOI ETON MESS. Slowed down trying to juggle the letters in ‘farmers opt’; I think I needed all the checkers. 7:02.
  3. Didn’t feel like I was held up anywhere in particular but it still took me 7 minutes. I just don’t know how these speed demons do it!
  4. This turned out to be a real shocker for me and I needed a full 15 minutes to complete the grid. I wasn’t helped by having SURFACE for a while at 15dn which at first glance seemed reasonable if not exactly a perfect fit by way of wordplay, but come to that I’m having some difficulty in seeing ‘go = PASS’ unless it’s intended as a reference to the terminology used in cribbage, which I doubt. Others that gave me problems were PERMAFROST and BRED.
    1. I barely thought about it at the time. Could it be ‘die’ (we’ve all got to go someday; she passed peacefully in her sleep)?
      1. Maybe, but if that’s it I’d prefer the cribbage explanation. When a player has run out of valid cards to play he say ‘Go’ meaning ‘Pass’ and the next player continues.
        1. “A bit slow on the first go but on the next pass he managed to finish the job.” .. also see mendesest’s comment below, for an example!
          1. Yes, that’s fine. I thought there’d be something in more general parlance, this being a QC. The cribbage example is fine too, but less well-known these days perhaps.

            Edited at 2021-01-19 08:04 am (UTC)

      2. Just looked this up to reply to a post further down:

        From Collins:
        11. VERB
        If you pass through a stage of development or a period of time, you experience it.
        The country was passing through a grave crisis.

        Collins thesaurus:
        2 (verb) in the sense of go
        Definition
        to move onwards or over
        I passed through the doorway to ward B.
        Synonyms
        go
        move
        travel
        roll
        progress
        flow
        proceed
        move onwards

  5. I had to drag the last few out but still finished (all green) in a pretty fast for me 13m. The top half went in more easily than the bottom half with all but one of the six that went in on the first pass being in that half. My main struggle was with SURPASS which I entered without confidence but at least that extra checker let me get BRED where I’d hit a wall with _ _ _ D. An impressive amount going on in such a short clue that had me looking for a reversed currency meaning ‘speaker’ – not my finest moment now I come to type it. Also slow to see SNATCHER was an anagram, that H allowed me to finally see what was going on with EPOCH, my LOI. Had a four letter word panic with BOAR but at least the alphabet trawl was brief.
  6. 6m59s, found that tricky. 1ac and 8dn went in quickly but still got stuck in the bottom half.. long anagrams are tricky online!
  7. Sadly, a DNF and I admitted defeat. Could not see OMERTA which I have never heard of, missed FITS IN, eventually managed SUR and biffed PASS without parsing it, and BRED was another puzzler, not helped by the QC App not showing the name of the setter. COD, PRESENT DAY. At least I was happy to put recently acquired knowledge of vacation to good use. Looks like a long time before I will be enjoying one in the real sense.
    Thanks Chris and Oink
    1. I don’t understand how ‘lady on vacation’ leads to ‘LY”, could you please explain how this part of the clue works? I see that we are required to take the first and last letters of ‘lady’ but I’m not sure why!
      1. by vacating, as it were, the letters between the L and Y. Do keep this in mind, because setters like to do it. ‘Extremely mellow’ could be MW, by the same token.
      2. “Vacation” implies emptying the word, I think, and so taking all the middle letters out, leaving just the first and last.
        Cedric
      3. Vacation in this context is an instruction to vacate, ie “empty” the word of its content.
        So, remove the “ad” and you are left with the exterior, LY.
        Thanks to previous posters for explaining it to me here some time ago.
    2. I wondered at the time if this might be less than obvious to non-US solvers, as it is a (US-related) mafia term.
      2. Omerta is very well known here too; if you search it just on The Times online, for example, it brings up over 2,000 results.
      3. No it comes from the Italian long before it got to USA
        It roughly translates as manhood (similar to macho) I.e. deal with things your self not call in authorities

        Incidentally the mafia owes its origins to the British navy, its understanding that lack of vitamin C caused scurvy made previously useless sour scicilian oranges suddenly valuable as they are a rich source. The gangs that the orange grove owners set up to stop them being stolen became the mafia.

        1. Well well. This sounds like something out of ‘Would I lie to you?’… It sounds so far fetched it must be true…!
          1. The ‘first customer of the mafia’ is true – according to the Nelson novels I’ve enjoyed over the years. No good the navy turning up for bit of vit C if all the oranges had been half inched.
  8. Just inside 15 minutes for me after a day off yesterday, and that after a quick start with the first 3 acrosses going straight in. Like others, struggled with FITS IN and slow to see SURPASS and BRED. Otherwise this was all fair and good fun. COD to PRESENT DAY which made me smile. Chris, you are missing the second A in your parsing of ANOMALY, but I loved your blog tribute to Oink. Thanks both.
    1. Thank you – fixed now, and thank you – I thought I might have improved my time if I’d have been a little rasher maybe have biffed a few more.
  9. 4dn OMERTA Few knew! Ungenerously clued. Otherwise I was going quite well.

    FOI ETON MESS – M&S used to do it – ‘scrumdiferous’ It is traditionally served at the Eton v Harrow cricket at Lords. The ‘Lancing Mess’ is served with bananas. (Merangue is not entirely traditional.)
    This cricket match is one of the world’s oldest sporting team events (since 1805). (The Epsom Derby was first run in 1780.) In 1914 nearly 40,000 spectators were present at Lords over the two days in late May.
    ‘Eton mess’ has been used to describe political infighting within the Tory Party over Brexit et al.

    (LOI) 19ac BRED

    COD 5dn APPENDIX I originallly put in ADDENDUM but had to have my appendix put in after the PAPER arrived at 9ac.

    WOD 8dn NOSY PARKER – Paul Pry

    Edited at 2021-01-19 09:24 am (UTC)

  10. A solve of two halves for me, with the top going straight in but the bottom proving much more difficult. Like Jack my first through for 15d was SURFACE but I simply couldn’t make it work so had to think again. SNATCHER, TROOP and EPOCH proved tough to crack before I finally had enough checkers to reveal PERMAFROST. FITS IN and NUTCASE both made me smile but PRESENT DAY pipped them to COD. Finished in 11.30.
    Thanks to Chris
  11. … who I usually consider one of the friendlier setters. Not today! Threw in the towel on the 15D Surpass / 19A Bred cross. For Surpass, I understand now, but I see from the comments above that I am not alone in not having immediately seen that Go = Pass; and with —D for 19A and a clue which I found at least 3 ways of trying to read it, none of which were fruitful, I abandoned ship after 10 minutes of staring blankly at it.

    And that was after some real struggles even for the clues I did get: Rattler for rattlesnake is not a shortening I have met, I was very slow to see the hidden in 4D Omerta (“getting round” is a new one to me for indicating a hidden), and the long anagram at 23A Permafrost needed writing out and even then only came slowly.

    So not my finest day! But at least I got Oink’s self-reference at 20D Boar fast enough.

    Chapeau to Oink today, and many thanks as always to Chris for the blog.
    Cedric

  12. Two DNFs in a row does get rather depressing! A lovely crossword which shouldn’t have felt so hard, but it seems I’m not alone in struggling a little. I stopped at an hour with the crossover of 14A, 15D and 19A Fits In/Surpass/Bred all empty. Nothing particularly difficult but I just couldn’t see any of them. I also had an issue with 8A Nutcase, trying for ages to work out if I could have BRA in the middle of something for Brazil. Turns out, no you can’t.

    Loved the surfaces of 7D Present Day and 8D Nosy Parker, such nice clues!

    Thanks Oink for the QC and and Chris for the blog. I shall hope for an easier one tomorrow!

  13. Super puzzle as always from Oink, including not only the piggy trademark but also another Eton reference as a bonus. We ought to keep a league table to see how many times it gets name-checked a year.

    I made that a lot harder for myself by confidently writing …ING-DAY at the end of 7dn on my way through the downs and then spending ages at the end wondering whether ARISING-DAY or ERASING-DAY could possibly work. Durr. Once you’ve written something in it takes real effort to decide that it’s wrong!

    Lots of really good clues – loved PAPER, ROTATION and ANOMALY among others.

    FOI FREE FOR ALL, LOI PRESENT-DAY, COD FITS IN, time 1.6K for a Decent Day.

    Many thanks Oink and Chris (wonderful porcine blog, Chris).

    Templar

  14. I too struggled with this. Towards the end I was looking for the pig clue as a way in. I found some of the definitions stretching but, on reflection, feel there was nothing unfair.
    FOI was FREE FOR ALL and then the next few were write-ins.
    Was slow to see NUTCASE -COD for me; and had to write out the long anagrams. Bad farmland being PERMAFROST took me a while. And I had GREY ? at 20d which caused me no end of problems; had squirrels in mind. BOAR was LOI after 18:23.
    An excellent challenging puzzle from Oink.
    David

    Edited at 2021-01-19 10:13 am (UTC)

  15. I must have got lucky because I don’t normally match or do better than the experts but today was barely 10 minutes. I didn’t know omerta but I could see it in the text and the ‘getting round’ was unhelpful to me. Also I wasn’t keen on rattler – maybe its familiar across the pond for the snake. Overall though enjoyed it. Thanks setter and blogger
  16. 23A was hard… Even with most of the checkers in it took a while to break into it, not helped by SURFACE which had seemed ok until it didn’t fit. BRED took a while, FITS IN didn’t for some time. A challenge for me but I got there in the end albeit well over my target 30 mins. Thanks Oink, always enjoy these.
  17. I have to agree with Chris and thought this was tough going – in fact I’d say it was the hardest Oink puzzle for a while. All in all, I was pleased to finish in 20 mins.

    To start with progress was slow, and it wasn’t until I finally got 8ac “Nutcase” (no idea why it took so long) and 8dn “Nosy Parker” that I started to make some headway in the bottom of the grid. 11ac got my usual tut, whilst it took all the checkers to finally fathom 23ac “Permafrost”. 4dn “Omerta” could only be a hidden word, although I confess I didn’t know it.

    FOI – 3dn “Et al”
    LOI – 4dn “Omerta”
    COD – 15dn “Surpass”

    Thanks as usual.

    Edited at 2021-01-19 11:16 am (UTC)

  18. Date: Tue, 19 Jan 21

    FOI: 1a FREE FOR ALL
    LOI: 13a PARENT

    Time to Complete: DNF

    Oh, what a poor week for me so far. Just like yesterday I really struggled with this one. It was a shame as I got my first one within a minute, and I thought that was a good sign. Alas, no. I was really annoyed with 3d ET AL, as I could see it was a 2 worded answer, both with two letters, and I had the first letter in place (E). How hard could it be! Unfortunately I made it impossible for myself by assuming “Departed” was the definition.

    8d – NOSY PARKER: Koreans pry awfully – and so do I! – I really couldn’t see how “I” led to nosy parker, even with the blogger’s explanation. But after some deliberation it dawned on me what the blogger (and indeed the setter) were getting at.

    A DNF for me on this cold and wet, miserable morning.

    5d – APPENDIX. I didn’t answer this one, but on seeing it, I thought it was a great clue.

  20. Well I seem to be having a poor run at the moment. All done and dusted in 10 minutes with the exception of 4d OMERTA – NHO and I couldn’t see the hidden as I was fixated on the idea of round = O. I’m looking forward to having an easier QC sometime this week.
  21. The top half fell into place without a hitch, after which I hit a brick wall. Somewhere around 40 minutes of hard graft in the end. Good challenge setter. Enjoyed PRESENT DAY. Did that come from a Christmas cracker?
    PlayUpPompey
  22. All but 3 clues. Found this relatively gentle. Must have been on the wavelength. Still have not managed to com0lete a puzzle yet
  23. … 14ac as the 10 minutes came up so looked up the answer. I wasn’t sure the clue quite worked but it does – just a simple separation of healthy and the rest of the clue as our blogger remarked

    Permafrost needed a pen and paper to write out the letters and most of the checkers.

    No problems with the rest though I was lucky BOAR hove into view

    Thanks all

  24. What can I say – nothing that hasn’t been said above already. Like plett11, the top half slipped in very quickly but I slowed markedly for the bottom half, especially the SW corner. Well into the SCC today but glad to finish. I’m impressed by so many sub-10 min solvers above. I, too am looking forward to an easier QC ere long. Thanks to Oink for a tough but interesting puzzle and to Chris for an amusing but helpful blog. John M.
  25. So pleased I had finished but forgot to go back and check S-L- which I could have got if I had pondered about it.
    Zoomed smugly through top half but stuck on then finally solved SURPASS, BRED, then EPOCH which gave me TROOP, ROTATION, PERMAFROST

    FOsI. FREE FOR ALL, APPENDIX (made me smile), OMERTA, ETON MESS. PRESENT DAY good too.

    Really enjoyed it but disappointed I missed it by a pig’s whisker.
    Thanks vm, Chris.

  26. 62 minutes of wading through treacle, only to be beaten at the death by 4d (OMERTA). I had never heard of the word and didn’t spot that it was hidden in the clue. In the end I guessed ODETTA, thinking that The Odessa File (a film I never saw) was something to do with a code of silence.

    After my first pass through all of the clues, a process which invariably takes me 8-10 minutes (How does anyone solve the whole puzzle quicker than that?), I had only solved four – and one of those was only written in faintly. The two most crucial clues for starting letters (1a and 8d) remained unsolved until sometime after the half-hour mark. Then, I somehow contrived to mis-spell PARKER, which made it impossible to solve 17a and 21a until I spotted my error about 20 minutes later. This meant that much of the SW corner remained blank until the very late stages of my (ultimately futile) effort.

    Oink is one of the few setters with whom I have had a better-than-evens solving record. Alas, however, it wasn’t to be today. Many thanks to him/her for the workout, and to chrisw91 for the explanations.

  27. I saw the hidden OMERTÀ but not the hidden SONATA, was looking for an opera like FIGARO. Omertà appears in a couple of Frederick Forsyth novels, which is where I first came across it.

    Eton again. The only school in crossword land.

    Also did not see FITS IN, went with LIES IN.

    COD PRESENT DAY

  28. That was definitely on the trickier side of things. I started off confidently enough with FREE FOR ALL, and got the danglers from it apart from 1d, which eventually was my LOI after NUTCASE. NOSY PARKER and PERMAFROST needed pen and paper to work out. SUR____ went in with FACE discounted but PASS not occuring to me for a while. BRED needed both crossers. BOAR took a while, despite my thinking of forest creatures that might forage. 13:23. Thanks Oink and Chris.
  29. A sad DNF today. Just not on Oink’s wavelength at all. Managed two thirds with help and then gave up. NHO OMERTA. Sad, since I managed nearly all of yesterday’s 15×15 which is miraculous for me.
  30. I loved this one! I always enjoy Oink’s puzzles – full of wit, neat cluing and lovely surfaces, and I thought today was no exception. So many wonderful clues it’s hard to find a COD – PAPER, PERMAFROST, OMERTA and NOSY PARKER were all in the running. So everything fell into place for me – also some time pressure as we were aiming to go for our walk before the storm arrived so I had to get a move on!

    FOI Et al
    LOI Permafrost
    COD Present Day
    Time 10 minutes

    Thanks Oink for the fun, and Chris for the highly entertaining blog

  31. OMERTÀ? Come on, how many of us knew that one … not appropriate. for the QC I think. Or perhaps it’s just my ignorance.

    Actually apart from that it was a good day, and I always enjoy looking for the porcine clues from Oink.

    Thank you, setter and blogger.

    Diana

  32. A tough one this. At the 30 minute mark I had all but 2dn and 19ac. Decided to use aids after that which soon produced RATTLER for 2dn but I never did see BRED. Also failed to parse ANOMALY having been caught out by the phrase “on vacation” yet again. Definitely not a good day.

    FOI – 1ac FREE FOR ALL
    LOI – 19ac remainder outstanding until I came here
    COD – 7dn PRESENT DAY

  33. A promising start in the NW, where I benefitted from remembering Omerta, meant that after about 20mins I was left with ‘just’ the SE corner. At which point I came to a complete halt, struggling even to see how some of the remaining clues worked. Eventually the hidden in plain site Sonata gave me Boar and Anomaly (which I thought began with a reversed Moan typo…), but after another 5 mins I pulled stumps with Fits In, Surpass and Bred unsolved. A tough one from Oink. Invariant
  34. Took a while to get going and we really needed the checkers to solve some of the clues but we prevailed and finished in 21 minutes. We didn’t have any real issues (we were aware of omertà) we just needed time to work out Oink’s clever clues. Thank you Oink – this was a treat!

    FOI: free for all
    LOI: lapse
    COD: nosy parker

    Thanks for the fun blog Chris.

  35. Inspector Montalbano would be surprised people haven’t heard of OMERTA, but then it is a secret.
    And ETON MESS is easily made with yoghurt if you don’t like cream, but our esteemed blogger doesn’t even like meringues. NHO that 🙂

    Edited at 2021-01-19 03:08 pm (UTC)

  36. I began really quickly and thought this was going to be a light relief after some recent offerings but then I started to struggle. I failed to spot that 12d was an anagram so was not convinced it was snatcher – I wanted it to be a word for chest with r removed – and couldn’t think of any word for E-O-H. I ended up using an aid for 21a, 2d and 10a. I had forgotten sat for posed which we had just a few days ago. In the end I finished in half an hour which isn’t too bad for me.
    FOI 1a
    LOI 10a
    COD 14a
    Thank you to Oink & Chris especially for the piggy references- we have a granddaughter who has wanted to be a pig farmer when she grows up ever since she was about 3!
    Blue Stocking
  37. Got just over half in about 3 mins and then chugged though to 18 min finish held up by epoch and snatcher

    How does go = pass?

    1. From Collins:
      11. VERB
      If you pass through a stage of development or a period of time, you experience it.
      The country was passing through a grave crisis.

      Collins thesaurus:
      2 (verb) in the sense of go
      Definition
      to move onwards or over
      I passed through the doorway to ward B.
      Synonyms
      go
      move
      travel
      roll
      progress
      flow
      proceed
      move onwards

  39. Nice puzzle. Fortunately I spotted and recognised OMERTA, but probably known only from other puzzles. FOI FREE FOR ALL. LOI PERMAFROST. I enjoyed finding the porcine reference at 20D. 5:34.
  40. This was a longer solve than usual for me. A nap about three quarters of the way through did the trick so that I was able to complete! Thanks, Oink.
  41. FOI 1A: FREE-FOR-ALL
    LOI 4D: OMERTA

    Enjoyable and a little tricky. Thank you, chrisw91 and Oink.

  42. 25:42 for a surprisingly tough QC. Comforting to come here and find I am not alone. Lots to like including FITS IN, ANOMALY and even BRED for holding out for so long while being so short.
  43. ….and a puzzle that I had no problems with. I’m surprised how many people didn’t know OMERTA, though I could see that ETON MESS might present difficulties to non-British solvers.

    I’m surprised to be 10th fastest today at such a late hour, and being faster than Verlaine is always something I cherish.

    FOI FREE-FOR-ALL
    LOI EPOCH
    COD FITS IN
    TIME 3:18

  44. DNF for me too today. Similar to others, I struggled with “fits in”, “bred” and “epoch”. I also DNK rattler as a snake, US usage perhaps?
    Pretty sure I knew Omerta from the Godfather films!

    Was looking out for a piggy clue from Oink so was happy with boar.

  46. Another tough one for me, but unlike yesterday (DNF after 66 minutes – really not on Orpheus’s wavelength) I did at least finish. 58:07 though and had to hope OMERTA was right. Found the bottom half a completely different league to the top, most of which went straight in. Thought I might be on for a pb for a couple of minutes. The anagrams took an age, especially SNATCHER which I only realised was one after I’d got it. LTI were SURPASS and then FITS IN. Thanks Chris and Oink, but I hope we get something a tad easier tomorrow.
  47. I thought I was in for a fast time as the N flew in. Recognised 4d Omertà straight away. Had to push hard to get the S completed but a DNF on 14a Fits In – I thought of ‘sin’ but didn’t try it in the second half of the answer…doh! Some lovely clues in 17a 7d, and others too made it really disappointing not to finish it all. As the S began to fill up I was getting desperate to find the porcine clue, and then it took too long to find the four letter word. FOI 1a Free For All; LOI 19a Bred; COD 21a Epoch. However, a delightful puzzle from Oink and an entertaining and informative blog from Chris, and discussion.
  49. Having seen Oink before I was on the lookout for several porcine clues and having got Boar convinced myself that the anagram at 8d was something Porker having got the P of Parent only.
    As a result a pigs ear down the west coast and a DNF. Anyone else think similar? Johnny

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