Times 28060 – in which we may be doubting Thomas

Author   glhPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic

Time taken: 10:37, which is right around my average time, but as of right now I’m the only one with a completed puzzle, so I don’t really know a difficulty level. I found the anagrams tricky, and had to write out the letters and use process of elimination to get the two long anagrams, one of which was for a politician that I was not familiar with.

The wordplay is solid throughout, so I enjoyed this one. Some hectic early starts at work means that I haven’t solved the last two days of puzzles, finally got a free night tonight so I can enjoy them after I write this up.

Since I am in the East coast of the USA, I will not be able to respond when the bulk of comments come in, so check through to see if anything has been answered.  I’ll check in tomorrow morning with a postscript.

Postscript: it seems the most controversy was over stateside, a term I use quite a bit as an expat who lives in the US and has a lot of conversations with friends in Australia, Canada and the UK. Several agree it is a good puzzle to trust wordplay, and if you like trusting wordplay, come join me in Mephistoland every Sunday.

Across
1 Community’s thus with other people around group of islands (8)
SOCIETAL – SO(thus) and ET AL(other people) around CI(Channel Islands)
5 Overnight accommodation reportedly needed for these deliveries (6)
BIRTHS – sounds like BERTHS(overnight accommodation)
8 Sparkling old friend with energy and fragrance (10)
OPALESCENT – O(old), PAL(friend), with E(enery) and SCENT(fragrance)
9 Model to perform when given lines (4)
DOLL – DO(perform) and L,L(lines). Hopefully lines of script
10 Sometime get act sorted out? Bill will go through it (9,5)
COMMITTEE STAGE – Anagram of SOMETIME,GET,ACT – I saw the “committee” part but had to subtract letters to get stage
11 Easiest assignments — only some needed rests (7)
SIESTAS – hidden inside eaSIEST ASsignments
13 Bent on being still attached to clique (4,3)
DEAD SET – DEAD(still) and SET(clique)
15 Get rid of some French politician, twisted inside (7)
DESTROY – DES(some, in French), then TORY(politician) with the middle letters swapped
18 Celebrity entertained by wicked person with sinister sign (7)
BASTARD – STAR(celebrity) inside BAD(wicked)
21 Statesman’s howler — most calm in turmoil? (6,8)
THOMAS CROMWELL – anagram of HOWLER,MOST,CALM. Needed most of the checking letters to see Cromwell, but didn’t see the rest of Oliver. It was a different Coromwell.
22 Cosy little room where weapons thrown back (4)
SNUG – GUNS(weapons) reversed. Had to look up the definition for the blog – Collins lists SNUG as a small room in a pub
23 Being unrealistic about one bit of business, I celebrate (10)
IDEALISING – I(one), DEAL(bit of business), I, SING(celebrate)
24 College with fashionable folk by the sea in Brittany (6)
MERTON – TON(fashionable people) next to MER(sea in French)
25 Son faces tough challenge — more dangerous than any other (8)
SEVEREST – S(son) and the challenge is EVEREST
Down
1 Admitters of wicked things, namely at one time originally sinful (7)
SCONCES – SC(scilicet, namely), ONCE(at one time), and the first letter of Sinful. The candles have wicks in them
2 Charlie — hurting no one, appealing to no one? (9)
CHARMLESS – C(Charlie), HARMLESS(hurting no one)
3 English member is first to thank one expressing mournful thoughts (7)
ELEGIST – E(English), LEG(member), IS and the first letter of Thank
4 A second quote’s to be given for what medical practitioner will treat (7)
ASCITES – A, S(second), CITE’S(quote’s)
5 David’s wife in university city, the woman with arts degree (9)
BATHSHEBA – the University city is BATH, then SHE(the woman) and BA(Bachelor of Arts)
6 What club isn’t providing punishment for player? (3,4)
RED CARD – a club is a black card
7 Nellie is entertained by the fellow who comes from Greece? (7)
HELLENE – ELLEN(Nellie) inside HE(the fellow)
12 A dean’s original sermon maybe in worship (9)
ADORATION – A, then the first letter in Dean, and ORATION(sermon, maybe)
14 Says fish could be heading towards America (9)
STATESIDE – STATES(says), IDE(fish)
16 Understanding number in part of hospital will require particular drug (7)
ENTENTE – TEN(number) in ENT(part of hospital), then the drug is E
17 Sympathy for all that trouble with foreign money lost (7)
THOUGHT – THOUGH(for all that), then TROUBLE minus ROUBLE(foreign money)
18 Lawyers met with anger and torrent of abuse? (7)
BARRAGE – BAR(Lawyers) and RAGE(anger)
19 Man moving into place is one of the old people (7)
SAMNITE – anagram of MAN inside SITE(place). Got this from wordplay – they are ancient Italians
20 Joy of journalist lifted by something illuminating (7)
DELIGHT – ED(journalist) reversed then LIGHT(something illuminating)

47 comments on “Times 28060 – in which we may be doubting Thomas”

  1. …I had Bethsheba. Now thinking Beth Sheba must have been a cricketer. Or maybe not.

    Entered RED CARD then looked at it for a ridiculously long time before parsing “what club isn’t”. Obviously a bit rusty.

    Thanks George and setter.

  2. Found this one tough! I couldn’t parse SOCIETAL as I didn’t know CI was an accepted abbreviation for the Channel Islands. THOUGHT and RED CARD ( doh!) were also unparsed, so thanks to GL for those, particularly the pdm for 6d. Got there unscathed in the end with SAMNITE LOI.
    32:57
  3. …but that didn’t stop me from finishing in 29 minutes. Never heard of ascites, that’s for sure, and I had to guess a little for the Samnites. I suspect Merton will be the downfall of many non-UK solvers.
  4. Four and a half minutes scratching my head before figuring out MERTON. And I went to the school! (Not really. I went to MERKIN College.)

    You can view my struggles here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1122649522. Actually I did decently on both this and the quickie, but I followed it up with abysmal performances on the NYT and the Concise. This, I can live with.

    After staring at IN for ‘fashionable’ for some time, I half-remembered TON as meaning ‘fashionable’; I hadn’t at all remembered it as meaning ‘fashionable people’. Then MER arose as a possibility for the sea, and MERTON seemed like it could be a thing. Glad I didn’t give up.

  5. 27 minutes. Almost a toss-up between ‘berths’ and BIRTHS at 5a, but I suppose the placement of the homophone indicator before ‘needed’ separated it from the def. Still, introduces some ambiguity and I prefer homophone or reversal indicators to be at the beginning or end of a clue to make it clear which is the def. Others may disagree.

    Bunged in both SAMNITE and BATHSHEBA from wordplay alone. I was reassured to hear that sometimes even the aces here have to resort to pen and paper to work out anagrams.

    Thanks to George and setter

  6. 32 minutes, slowed down considerably by biffing OLIVER CROMWELL at 21ac and taking ages to spot my error. Unforgiveable really as even the most cursory glance at the anagrist should have revealed that could not be correct. Also alarm bells might have rung at the definition ‘statesman’! The trouble was that I saw CROMWELL immediately from checkers and thought only of Oliver, and Richard who didn’t fit. Once that was corrected the final three intersecting answers fell into place.

    STATESDIDE implying movement towards the USA is something I have not come across before.

    I knew ASCITES, but SAMNITE didn’t seem familiar.

    1. Finally broke my pattern of DNFs with a 45:56 – the last two taking all of 12 minutes

      SCONCES – was unaware of SC(scilicet) = namely – and eventually started going through dictionary possibilities of S_ONCES
      IDEALISING – I’ve failed previously to parse “bit of business” = DEAL, took me numerous minutes to finally get it. Hopefully I’ll remember it when it comes round again (it surely will)

      I think STATESIDE = implying *towards* the USA is just a loose clue – all the examples I can think of (I’ll be stateside, I’m heading stateside etc.) mean *in* the USA…
      …and on a related note IDE = fish was an unknown cue I mentioned only a few days ago

      Progress!

      1. Actually, come to think of it, my example “I’m heading stateside” does work as “towards the USA”
        1. That means ‘I’m going to the United States’. Not starting out on your journey with the actual destination negotiable. If you ended up in Cuba or Canada, you would initially still be heading towards the USA. (Mr Grumpy)
      2. That’s exactly what I thought but SOED has:

        A adjective. Of, in, or pertaining to the United States of America. M20.

        ► B adverb. Towards or in the continental United States of America. M20.

        Congrats, by the way!

  7. Some nice stuff in here today — I particularly liked the clue for SCONCES which made for a good PDM. RED CARD was also good though I didn’t see the cryptic until post solve. I was slightly unsure about SAMNITE and more so ASCITES but thankfully the cryptic was unambiguous for both.
  8. Veil’d Melancholy has her sovran shrine

    25 mins pre-brekker while always thinking it would turn out a DNF. The Societal/Ascites made me think it would be harder than it was.
    Mostly I liked Red Card.
    Thanks setter and G.

  9. So my average time. No difficulties although didn’t know ASCITES. Liked the RED CARD and SCONCES.
  10. 10:23 Nice one. DNK ASCITES or SAMNITE, but the wordplay was clear. COD to RED CARD. Thanks George and setter.
  11. Currently walking Hadrian’s Wall. Came across the site of a battle yesterday, and the information board there mentioned SCONCES as a fortification of some sort. “Oh”, says Mrs Nowt, “I thought sconces were things that held candles”
  12. 14′ 32″, crossed fingers for ASCITES and SAMNITE.

    Liked SCONCES.

    RED CARD took a while as was looking to include if=providing.

    THOMAS CROMWELL in pretty quickly, thank Hilary Mantel.

    Thanks george and setter

    1. Sorry Rob. I see we used the same subject and you got there first. Her beauty in the moonlight overthrew me.
  14. 31 minutes with LOI DEAD SET. I didn’t know that meaning of SCONCES, which I constructed, as I did SAMNITE and ASCITES The wicked joke was wasted on me. A sconce meant a challenge to drink a large quantity of beer without stopping in my Oxford days. Those times did help with MERTON though. HELLENE was a biff as I didn’t tie Nellie in with Ellen but I did with Dean for too long. COD to RED CARD. Good puzzle, despite the obscurities. Thank you George and setter.

    Edited at 2021-08-19 08:11 am (UTC)

  15. I think a lot more people are aware of ‘ton’ as ‘fashionable people’ thanks to Bridgerton, as it’s used a lot by the narrator – it certainly sprang to my mind a bit quicker than it would have done before I watched it.

    Didn’t know SCONCES, ASCITES or SAMNITES so constructed them from the wordplay, hadn’t heard of SNUG as a little room (though I didn’t really need to), and took a while to remember THOMAS CROMWELL even when I’d seen Thomas.

    I then went and mucked it up by putting ‘red hand’ instead of RED CARD – I couldn’t get away from ‘hand’ once I had the A and the D, and after I got the R from BIRTHS I put it in, assuming red hand was a punishment as in ‘caught red-handed’. If only I’d stopped to think for a few more seconds, I’d have realised that doesn’t really make sense.

  16. ….and thus ASCITES and SAMNITE went in with confidence. Another quite vanilla puzzle otherwise.

    FOI OPALESCENT
    LOI ASCITES
    COD MERTON
    TIME 7:47

  17. Fairly gentle today at 14.49, with the same two unknowns as everyone else. ASCITES is helpfully defined in Chambers as “dropsy of the abdomen”. Obviously. Neither answer could be anything else, given the wordplay.
    I liked the mischief of the wicked things and what a club isn’t, and come to that the sinister sign for BASTARD, which itself used to be red-carded here. So wit to go with the accessible obscurity: what’s not to like?
    From just below the middle row, is there a ghostly message from Henry VIII?
  18. The fourth puzzle this week that has been more-or-less on my wavelength.
    Another one who is thanking Hilary Mantel for THOMAS CROMWELL. It was a very good anagram I thought.
    FOI: OPALESCENT
    LOI: SCONCES
    COD was going to be between DESTROY and MERTON but my vote now goes to SCONCES. Thank you, George, for explaining that one. I do like ‘wicked’!
  19. I also had to construct the unknown ASCITES and SAMNITE. SCONCES was also built from the wordplay and I knew what they were, but it still took a while before the penny dropped on wicked things, doh! ELEGIST and CHARMLESS went in first. I saw CROMWELL soon enough, but had to write out the anagrist to derive THOMAS. I resisted the temptation to biff OLIVER. I didn’t manage to parse THOUGHT but it had to be. Liked RED CARD. 30:26. Thanks setter and George.
  21. Good fun that was reasonably straightforward, though I Wasted some time trying to think of a Breton town that ended in TON.

    I thought RED CARD was clever, but COD was SCONCES. Wicked (like supply) is one of those crossword tricks that I fall for every time and get a childish pleasure from doing so.

    Thanks to g and the setter.

  22. ASCITES was unknown to me, and I wasn’t sure of what SCONCES meant but the wordplay was kind. On reading ‘David’s wife’ I immediately biffed BETHSHEBA, before having second thoughts and checking the wordplay – fortunately.

    5m 24s, with some surprise that BASTARD made it in. But, after all, why shouldn’t it?

    The SNUG/GUNS reversal was one of the opening clues for an episode in the last series of Only Connect, where the winning team features some regulars on the crossword scene – nicely set up for them.

  23. NHO SCONCES, so wouldn’t have got it even if I’d seen the ‘wicked things’ meaning (which I didn’t). Pity, because solved the rest very quickly.
  24. Potshots at ASCITES and SAMNITE following pencilling in of SCONCES until I saw the joke, and then SOCIETAL.

    No probs with THOMAS CROMWELL having completed two of Hilary Mantel’s books.

    Luckily my granny’s name was Nellie and her own mother was Ellen so HELLENE was straightforward.

  25. 45 minutes, with a few wings and prayers.

    For a short while, I did wonder if Thomas McWoller was a former statesman.

  26. ASCITES was unknown, but generously clued, and my brain pretended to remember SAMNITEs from the bible, otherwise breezed through in 22 entertaining mins.
  27. The Georgette Heyer fan club will have had no trouble with the “ton” in MERTON. I’d heard of samite as a kind of fabric and samsonite as luggage but SAMNITE had to be a guess. Like others I started out with Oliver in 21a but then Mark Rylance hove into view. Oh rats, live Journal is back bombarding me with disgusting ear wax ads again. I actually prefer the Russian escort services in case anyone is listening….. 18.41 with a stupid typo.
  28. 27.55 . A tough workout for me today. Aided in finishing by good guesses at sconces and ascites, Seemed reasonable but nho of ascites and though sconces rang a far away bell, couldn’t have explained why.

    Thanks blogger for the explanation of the latter, induced a forlorn rolling of the eyes, aarggh!

    All in all another good workout. Thx setter and as per blogger.

  29. 17.07. An enjoyable and engaging solve with some nice vocab. FOI opalescent. LOI thought. COD sconces. Unlike the ubiquitous flower which I instantly associate with rivers and which only surprises when it is actually a plant, wicked is just infrequent enough for me to have forgotten its association with candles whenever it turns up.
  30. 12:32. I started really quickly on this and thought for a while I might be on for a sub-5, but then I slowed down. A hastily-biffed OLIVER CROMWELL cost me a few minutes, and then I got completely stuck at the end, thinking 24ac was a word for a college plus TON to give a town on the coast of Brittany. I almost gave up, which would have been incredibly embarrassing considering the answer is my alma mater.
    Nice puzzle, though. I needed the wordplay for several clues.

    Edited at 2021-08-19 01:43 pm (UTC)

  31. I started this over lunch and after FOI BATHSHEBA slowed down alarmingly. I was helped by a report in today’s paper that Bristol Uni is sending homeless students to Bath which already has plenty of students of its own looking for accommodation.
    Anyway I got into the puzzle, solved the top half , and then as a way of putting off mowing the lawn I kept going.
    LOI was THOUGHT; hard to parse. Constructed ASCITES and SAMNITES and somehow remembered that SCONCES could relate to candles having constructed the word.
    Enjoyable challenge. Just the right side of too difficult.
    David
  32. Didn’t know the word SCONCES. Didn’t know SC. Had Evanescent at 8A.

    Was destined never to get the answer

  33. Got the unknowns: sconce was was actually a known but missed the wicked things; samnites and ascites. But failed on merton… not a French speaker but do know mer; nevertheless first guess was hep from with-it and ton for fashianable. Hepton might not be a a word, and repton might not also, but Repton as a school almost rings a tiny bell so I went with it. Not my favourite clue.
  34. Enjoyed this. 45 minutes with two unsolved. Was determined that ‘challenge’ in 25ac was ‘test’ so was looking for a three letter word for ‘tough’. The key to solving crosswords is the flexibility to continue to find different ways of looking at clues when you get stuck. Failed today. Couldn’t see samnite either. Otherwise completed correctly without parsing sconces and thought. Didn’t know ascites. Thanks to the blogger for the explanations and to the setter for a good workout.
  35. I may have said I always do these puzzles on paper with a stopwatch, then key in on-line and wait for the appropriate time to be clocked up before submitting.
    This procedure is meant to eliminate my ability to mis-key almost anything. Not today it didn’t! Despite having plenty of time to check everything, I managed to show 17 d as “thooght”. Maybe it was in the stars, since I biffed it (thanks GLH for the explanation).
    Otherwise I found this difficult, with two definite NHO’s “ascites” and “samnites”, although the cryptic elements were generous in both cases, and 5 ac “births” proving elusive for some time.
    LOI 13 ac “dead set” where I attributed “set” to “still” (as in unmoving) and thus struggled to find a phrase for “clique”.
    Now doing a fairly accurate impression of Mr Grumpy, but at least we have a dinner of duck confit and a Morgon to look forward to.
    Thanks to GLH for the blog and to setter
  36. Having seen several acknowledgements to Hilary Mantel, I must nominate CJ Sansom and the Shardlake series for Thomas Cromwell references. As our American friends say, Sansom just nailed it, the politics, intrigue and sheer brutality of the Tudor era.
    Plus a word for Coronation Street and those childhood Mondays and Wednesdays watching the drama unfold in the snug of the Rovers Return.
  38. 35 minutes, with several unknowns (SCONCES, ASCITES, MERTON), but very fair and easy wordplay to solve them. I saw CROMWELL quite quickly and unlike others, did not just bung in OLIVER, so no problem there. All in all a fun puzzle, though not spectacularly so.
  39. As any Breton will tell you, sea is Mor, unless they’re one of those pesky grenouilles.
  40. Started this late last night but had to stop, with half a dozen left, when I kept on falling asleep. The missing six included the completely unknown Samnite, which therefore required the last of the crossers (idealising) this morning to confirm my best guess at the wordplay. Ditto for the other nho, Ascites. Pleased to have finished one at the limit of my ability. Invariant

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