Times 24539 – In search of the lost cloud

Author   vinyl1Posted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Solving time: 30 minutes

Music: Sibelius, Violin Concerto Belkin/Ashkenazy/LSO

This is the first puzzle I’ve had to blog that I consider somewhat unsatisfactory. For me, the cryptics lacked the precision one expects in a Ximinean puzzle, and I filled in many of the answers from the definitions alone.

After 30 minutes, I was left with 13 across. There are three English words that would fit the crossing letters, and there is something to be said in support of each one as a possible correct answer. This is not what I would expect in a well-constructed cryptic, but it is also possible I have a mental block and cannot see the obvious.

Newcomers are reminded that obvious answers are not blogged, so don’t be afraid to ask.

Across
1 FIELD EVENTS, FI (EL(D)EVEN)TS. I never did see this cryptic, but it is an acceptable one. The problem here is lack of thematic misdirection.
7 GAS G[ilbert] A[nd] S[ullivan]. The literal is from sixties slang, and is rather dated.
9 BASILICAN, anagram of BAIL IS + CAN.
10 INNER, double definition, where ‘inner’ is the circle outside of the bull’s-eye on the target.
11 MAYFAIR, MAY + FAIR.
12 NETWORK, NET + WORK.
13 Either CROWD or CHORD – I have eliminated CLOUD….I think. All three contain something that might be ‘line’ – ‘row’, ‘cord’, or ‘l’. A ‘crowd’ would be a ‘circle’, and you can ‘strike a chord’, so the literal is hovering around as well. But I cannot resolve the clue into a clear Ximenean construction instruction, so I throw this open to the group for comment and analysis. It’s definitely CHORD – kurihan2 has nailed it.
15 OXFORD DON, where ‘fellow’ means ‘Fellow’ and ‘Exeter’ means Exeter College, Oxon.
17 APPRAISAL, APP(RAIS[e])AL.
22 SNIPPET, SNIP + PET. I tried to get too specific with ‘poodle’ in the sense of political lapdog, causing delay.
24 TOUCH, double definition, both a bit weak.
25 ABOUT TURN, double definition.
28 SPLIT SECOND, where ‘go’ = ‘split’ in the slang sense, and ‘after one’ = ‘second’, although I would say two comes after one.
 
Down
1 FIB, IF backwards + B for book.
2 ESSAY E[uropean] + S[econd] + SAY, where both ‘essay’ and ‘attempt’ are verbs.
3 DULLARD, DULL + ‘ARD, where number means more numb and dull is a verb.
4 VICARIOUS, VICAR + IOUS, the only clue in this puzzle I really enjoyed. Very nice surface.
5 NINON, [pressma]N + IN ON. Careless solvers will put ‘nylon’, like I nearly did, and leave a mess to clean up later.
6 SWIFTER, SWIFT + ER, where ‘relatively fast’ is a bit of a cryptic defintiion itself, rather than a proper literal.
7 GUNPOWDER, double definition referring to gunpowder green tea….I think.
8 STRIKING OUT. A double definition, but I not completely sure of the second one. Perhaps an allusion to the ‘repeater’ in a mechanical watch? This wouldn’t work very well as a baseball clue.
11 MECHANISTIC, anagram of MISCHANCE containing IT. .
14 OPPORTUNE, OP + P + OR + TUNE, a nice musical theme to the literal.
16 FELL SHORT, F(anagram of SHELL)ORT.
18 APACHES, A + P + ACHES
18 THISTLE, TH(anagram of LIST)E. Fortunately, a well-known plant – I always dread these horticultural clues.
21 SNAIL, cryptic definition.
23 PLUTO, double definition, refrerring to a cartoon dog and the recent demotion of the 9th planet to lost asteroid.

51 comments on “Times 24539 – In search of the lost cloud”

  1. I agree with vinyl – I found some of this a bit unsatisfactory.

    I held myself up for a long time by assuming that 8dn ended with OFF rather than OUT, and by having ABOUT FACE at 25ac, both of which took a while to clean up.

    I think in 8dn “beginning something new” is the definition, both “STRIKING” and “OUT” meaning “not working” (so “repeatedly”).

    13ac I took as a double def – a chord is a line across a circle + “strike a chord” meaning to strike a sensitive point.

    Sports commentators have an unhappy knack of mangling language, but “to net” meaning “to score” must be one of the worst examples to have passed into the dictionary!

  2. 12 minutes, got CHORD from one of the two definitions. FIELD EVENTS from definition, OXFORD DON from wordplay alone. I had a few initial fluffs, put OFFICE DON in at 15 and had CLOUT with a question mark at 13 until I saw DULLARD. Nearly fell into the trap at 25 by having ABOUT FACE?TURN? written in. I liked 11 down
  3. I rather liked this for its slight Araucarian tendencies (e.g., 13ac, 24ac, 21dn). I notice 26dn isn’t mentioned. Is it possible that the clue should read “Sign of agreement…”? Or am I, as so often, missing something obvious? Oh … and 18m since the blog theme has to do with times.
    1. To sign can mean to communicate silently, ie the same as to signal (which would have been a better choice of verb).
  4. Didn’t get a time because of interruptions, but about 30 min with indecision over CROWD = circle (of friends), or (striking a CHORD). The mathematical definition eluded me (Doh …). At a loss over TOUCH = compete (with or without with). Can anyone put me out of my misery? Not too worried about score = net in the wider context of both meaning acquire. Overall, I found this oddly an unsatisfying start to the week.
    1. 24ac TOUCH seems to be in the sense of “injure” or “harm”. I have some vague memory of reading of a businessman saying (probably in a Yorkshire accent) something to the effect of “He’s welcome to his business as long as it doesn’t touch mine”, although that sounds a bit old-fashioned.
  5. Got it whilst shopping. “… can’t touch …” = “… can’t compete with …”. Always in the negative.
  6. About 18 minutes here. I wasn’t as dissatisfied as vinyl or kurihan. I got CHORD from ‘circle line’ without a lot of thinking. But I did go for ABOUT FACE at first, until I saw that PLUTO was needed for 23, which changed that to ABOUT TURN, leading to my last entry, NOD. I certainly do agree with vinyl that VICARIOUS is the pick of this litter. Regards to everyone.
  7. I’m also in the slightly dissatisfied category, with many question marks about the palce. TOUCH, GUNPOWDER, DULL (OK, so I plead temporary insanity on the number front) have been dealt with, but I can’t see what “in a way” is doing in 27ac, either for the surface or the cryptic. It can’t be a third definition can it? Or does cueing not strictly speaking equate to hitting? COD to VICARIOUS in spite of its IOUs. How could anyone fail to see that old chestnut…
  8. 16 minutes. I’m with kurihan2 on STRIKING OUT, and avoided -off because I already had SNIPPET. I still don’t get GUNPOWDER: if it is just a double definition with tea, then “contents of scoop” must be one of the loosest definitions I’ve ever seen!
    I think this is a set of clues which somehow attracts picky comments: what’s Rome doing in 9, for example, or “in a way” in 27? Most of the clues work perfectly well, if sometimes a bit loosely – “some Americans” for APACHES for example, and I took too much time working out some of the wordplays having got the entry from definition alone. FIELD EVENTS was one such: actually quite clever wordplay but much easier to go from definition alone.
    CoD goes to TORSO, which made me smile a bit.
    1. 7D: “Contents of scoop from China” I think – yes it is still capable of many interpretations, but you do also get “explosive stuff” which is about as plain a def as you could want. I’d say that Rome in 9 was representing its empire, just as Paris might represent France in a clue for a word in French. 27’s “in a way” is in the “not strictly necessary but not inaccurate” zone for me.
      1. I think I’m with you on GUNPOWDER, it’s just that it’s hard to see it as a cryptic clue “What explosive substance might you get in a scoop from China?” would work pretty well as a round 1 question in Weakest Link, especially if you provided the initial letter. Shan’t argue too much about Rome, but I think that too comes in the category of “not strictly necessary but not inaccurate”, which seems to be a useful category: can we find a decent acronym?
        1. We could change the first three words to “unnecessary” and call these UBNIs, I guess.
          1. Love it! UBNIs has a suitably cacophonic cast to it. I look forward to first use.
        2. On the “hard to see it as a cryptic clue” side, it’s at least possible to see the clue as being about a news report from China.
          1. Yes, I saw that while thinking about it in between times. I think the misdirection actually works better the other way, perhaps giving something like NEWSPRINT (as you can tell, not fully thought through, but not a bad idea for 9 letters!), as most first reactions would be to think of a little shovel with some stuff in it.
  9. Agree with Torso as COD. 35 minutes. my last ones in were Ninon Network and Striking out!. agree that this was a vaguely unstaisfying Monday puzzle…
    well blogged though!
  10. 19 minutes except guessed nanon without thinking it through. The clues that appear weakish I thought OK on consideration e.g. touch=compete with in that localised context. Spent too long justifying 1 ac. though knew it was right – always a danger.
  11. 43 minutes here, with the last few minutes spent trying to decide between CROWD and CHORD, and plumping, with my inerrantly errant sense, for the former. Agree with the comments on 27ac (the cue clue). My take on the gunpowder clue is that ‘perhaps’ indicates that there is, as Wikipedia notes, some controversy about just who invented the stuff:

    “… it has also been argued that, like the wheel, gunpowder was “coinvented” or “co-discovered” prior to, simultaneously or slightly after the Chinese, by cultures separated from the Chinese by vast distances, with minimal direct contact between one another.”

    1. The perhaps is there because the clue is referring to gunpowder tea.. perhaps.. not the “real thing”
      1. Which still leaves us with “contents of scoop” somehow indicating tea, or just gunpowder, or ice-cream (I’m sure Heston Blumenthal would have a go at) or any not very specific stuff that can be shovelled up. I’ve yet to be convinced that this is anything other than a straight (barely even cryptic)definition.
      2. As noted above, open to interpretation, but ‘gunpowder scoop’ is used to describe the relevant implement.
  12. I agree with the negative comments. I found this very unsatisfactory with too many answers going in not fully understood. 35 minutes with one cheat at 5dn where I didn’t know the word but should have got it from the wordplay which works well in this case. At 13 I plumped for CHORD though I could just as easily have gone for CROWD. Incidentally COOED would also have fitted the checking letters.
      1. Collins and Chambers have CROWD as a variant of crwth. No relevant dictionary has CROUD.

        CHORD has a clear def and then the striking bit – I at least managed to link this with piano chords though not the “strike a chord” phrase.

        CROWD has a def – circle=group of people with shared interest=crowd, but the rest doesn’t work out – ‘line’ might be the central ROW, but you can’t get the rest to indicate its inclusion in CD.

        (CROWD = crwth has strings you can strike, but no role for ‘circle line’)

        COOED is just a word that fits the slot – there’s no past tense implied by the clue.

        So careful thought with the help of O-level maths leads to one clear answer.

        1. This was just something I remember from somewhere.
          But there is this, which suggests another musical instrument perhaps.
          Now that I look around, I see it’s also a Spenserian variation on “crowd”. Otherwise, sorry for the red-herring.
    1. Your link (or more likely LJ’s automatic converstion of URLs to live links) omitted the final bracket – here’s the right one
  14. DNF. Left with N?N?N at NINON and opted for CROWD. Didn’t understand FIELD EVENTS, GUNPOWDER or TOUCH. Poor stuff from me so can’t blame the puzzle. COD of course to TORSO.
  15. Count me in the group that enjoyed this crossword.. having read the above comments I still don’t see any technical fault in any clue.
  16. Solved in 6:20, with 4 answers written without full understanding (1A, 13, 24, 5) – not a hige number given the time. But all completed correctly. 5 was one of the last in and I must confess both to being tempted by NYLON and a brief thought that with N?N?N there must be something wrong somewhere – but recalled NINON in the nick of time.

    Also remembered enough from school maths for the ‘Circle line’ to mean the right thing.

  17. I finished this in an unusually quick 15 minutes so wasn’t going to let any dissatisfaction with the clues spoil my morning! I seem to be finding them either very hard or very easy at the moment, with nothing in between. And mostly the former.
    CHORD was a bit of a guess for me but the “strike a chord” part of it made me fairly confident. I also thought TOUCH was a bit weak but I just hadn’t thought of “can’t touch” = “can’t compete with”. So the fault was mine not the clue’s. Never heard of NINON but the wordplay was clear.
    I came very close to putting in FIELD SPORTS in 1ac but fortunately hesitated.
  18. Was able to complete this puzzle without much difficulty and in reasonable time – which is 30 minutes for me.
    The clue I liked most was 19ac TORSO. Some other five-letter answers (e.g., 5dn NINON) were derived quickly but the justification was a little late in coming! In the case of 13ac, realisation that the answer did not begin with OL… was all that was needed before the answer came, immediately striking a CHORD in me. So no wonder I also liked 14dn OP-P-OR-TUNE.
  20. a cue is a way or means for a player to hit a ball, that’s why in a way works?
    1. “to hit ball, in a way” is a long-winded verb so it must lead to a verb. If the clue said “in a way to hit ball”, then your idea would work, with “in” as a wordplay/def link (though this would of course indicate “cue” as a verb as well as a noun).
  21. 8.55. Didn’t get the wordplay to 1a, 7 and CHORD which was my last in. I can never remember the meaning of certain words – VICARIOUS being one – so needed the wordplay for this one (eventually it might stick).
    Quite a few basic clues but TORSO was good and nice to see something (comparatively for the Times) topical getting an airing in 23.
  22. 13:32 here, with about 5 minutes trying to come up with a suitable explanation for 13A – CROWD, CLOUD or CHORD? Got the right one in the end, and felt silly not to have spotted it sooner.
  23. 10:48 .. I agree with Nick. I mean Jerry. And Peter. It’s the new solving.

    No queries during solving and a quickish time, so the puzzle must be a good ‘un.

    Didn’t know NINON but the form of TORSO pointed the way to understanding.

    Last in TOUCH.

  24. Gunpowdwer Plod. Definitely more 11 than a 7 acc. About 25 mins. I liked 8 and 23 but that’s about it.
  25. A case of this blog being more entertaining than the puzzle, which manages to be both easy and irritating. I got CHORD from the geometry so didn’t even consider all the other alternatives. Nothing really stood out as worthy of mention.
  26. I got the word play for repeatedly not working but unfortunately I put ‘Starting out’ instead and as such did irreperable damage. Couldn’t get inner and tbh it’s a pretty vague first definition, and couldn’t get network. Never heard of ninon either.
  27. Slow – irritated as others have been. But, forgive the quibble, would not the surface of 21 dn have been better expressed as “Not fast” rather than “No fast”?
    1. If the surface meaning is rejection of fast food by the French, “No fast food …” expresses it better for me than “Not fast food …”.

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