Times 24,247 – Killer on the Loose?

Author   topicaltimPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Very similar to my last blogged puzzle – solving time a solid 15 minutes, with a handful of solutions where I wasn’t 100% certain of answers from prior knowledge of the word, but satisfied I was right from the wordplay. No quibbles as such, but a couple of things which I thought could have been tighter, though as usual, this may just be me – only time (and comments) will tell. Perhaps what I mean is that this had a rather Guardian-ish feel to it, which is not meant to be taken as a criticism. Q0-E6-D4

Across
1 TICKLER – double def.; to my mind, in everyday speech one might well refer to a ‘ticklish’ problem quite naturally, while describing that problem as a ‘tickler’ seems rather less natural to my ear; but the OED is certainly happy with it as a noun, and the setter is not obliged to use the obvious just because of my ears…
9 BRISTLING – BRISLING round T(ongue); one of those sardine-like fish whose name I have seen on a tin, without knowingly having eaten one.
10 DITTO – ([O]ver [T]he [T]op I.D.) reversed = “repeated”.
11 SCHADENFREUDE – (FUNHASRECEDED)*, a small point, but I take issue with the surface reading of the whole which gives the definition: surely the point is that when one experiences schadenfreude one is having fun (though presumably we are forced to look at this experience from the point of view of the schadenfreudee).
13 HUNTSMEN – pedantic issue time again, a woman who simply hunts men, of any description, may be a number of things, not all suitable for a family crossword; but a gold-digger’s special characteristic is surely that she hunts rich men, and only rich men, rather than men indiscriminately?
17 IAMBUS – I AM BUS(y); the iambus is the short-long metrical “foot” which forms the basis of iambic pentameters; “The ploughman homeward plods his weary way”, as Gray’s Energy in a Country Churchyard has it.
19 POOR LAWS – more double def.; as any study of English history reveals, the Poor are always with us.
22 WATER SOFTENER – = WATER’S OFTENER; “quality” as in the jewellery-based gradations, “of the first water” and so on.
25 MOIST – 0 in MIST.
26 GASHOLDER – GASH + OLDER; deduced this when I was left with G_S_OLDER; without knowing the secondary meaning of gash = “spare, surplus”. Nautical slang, apparently.
27 NASCENT – N + ASCENT = “beginning to develop”. I liked this, as it was difficult to know where to start without checking letters; at first I was sure I was looking for D + an anagram of UPWARD, and wondering if there was a geological phenomenon called a DRAWDUP, by which mountains, perhaps, were, er, drawed up…
28 DEEPEST – DEE + PEST as in person who “is a trial” – I may or may not be the only person who spent far too long thinking that trial was “TEST” and slowing myself down by it.
 
Down
1 TABU – U-B(o)AT; I think my closest to an actual quibble: the leap of deduction that leads from “killer” to “U-boat” just seems too large, and suggests it was only used because “surfacing”, meaning “letters running upwards” means you get the “heartless killer surfacing” image of a U-boat. Put it this way, I thought it was clever once I got the answer, but I didn’t get the wordplay for some time after I’d written the correct solution in, which is not the way round it should be.
3 LATCH – rivaL AT CHeltenham: “closer” must be read as “one that closes”, not “nearer”. A subtle reminder that the competition is only a few months away…
4 REINDEER – REIN (one’s attached to a bit)+ “DEAR”; in case you still haven’t spotted it, the list comes from “The Night Before Christmas”…

More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and call’d them by name:
“Now! Dasher, now! Dancer, now! Prancer, and Vixen,
“On! Comet, on! Cupid, on! Donner and Blitzen;
6 UNDERWEAR – (DAREWERUN)* raised a smile.
8 GOOSEFLESH – GO(O[n]ESELF)*H, i.e. ONESELF without sensation(N) inside GOSH, with the whole clue as the definition again.
14 SOUBRETTE – SOU + (BETTER)*; once more wordplay provide what was lacking in specific knowledge – doubtless those who are better versed in light opera will have come across this stock character already.
18 MATTINS – MATTING with the G(ood) replaced by S(elected) I think we had this alternate spelling of MATINS not long ago.
23 NIOBE – (IN)rev + OBE; if it wasn’t for the crossword, I’m not sure what use I’d have made of my classical education these last twenty years. The legend of Niobe is here, but like most characters of Greek myth, the short version is that she just didn’t know when she was well off.
24 TROT – TORT = legal wrong, TROT = Trotskyite.

49 comments on “Times 24,247 – Killer on the Loose?”

  1. Solving time: walk to shop, pie and iced coffee.
    Looking at the first three across clues, I thought we were in for the dreaded egregious adjective/adverb phenomenon — “difficult”, “quite”, “very”. But it didn’t crop up again until 4dn (“a bit”). So relieved on that account. Then had to check that a water-softener can be an appliance as well as a substance added to the wash. I’ve never encountered this (former) kind. Wonder what they look like. As with Tim, I didn’t like “trial” = “pest” one bit and also toyed with “test” for a while. In retrospect though, it could be a fair case of the red brisling! Lastly, don’t think there’s anything at all cryptic in 19. Or have I missed something?
    1. You mean that the Poor Laws were so poor that they obviously should have been repealed? I thought 15 was the weaker clue of the two…
    2. What is the “dreaded egregious adjective/adverb phenomenon”? Using them at all, using too many, or questions about what counts as (e.g.) “quite”, similar to the “exactly how many is a few?” discussion a while ago?

      Edited at 2009-06-09 07:19 am (UTC)

      1. Just this: if a tickler is a problem, it doesn’t need to be “difficult”; if something is amusing, it’s funny (“quite” is superfluous); if one is “bristling”, one is cross and the “very” is equally egregious. The fact that there were three in the first three clues merely put me on my guard. (Ex-gregus: outside the flock.)

        Turns out I was wrong about “a bit” (4dn) which is doing definite duty in the clue (as a different part of speech). Apologies to Tim for not reading his blog thoroughly.

        1. I understand your complaint, but I don’t understand why you call these words egregious (outstanding[ly bad]) rather than excrescent, superfluous, gratuitous, redundant, or even GASH.
          1. Doesn’t have to be outstandingly *bad*. In fact, it originally meant “prominent” and “distinguished” (see Chambers). Chambers gives its ordinary/current meanings as “outrageous” and “notorious”. (Oscar Wilde would have been both!) I had the same argument with a publisher once. Most likely one of those words that flopped over into its opposite. Cf “wicked” and so forth. I just like its etymology as a way of saying that something is outwith the ordinary/expected — whether good or bad. Overall though I thought this puzzle was great. Could the setter be egregious him/herself: outstanding in the field?
        2. I understand the complaint, but I think the setter was trying to help in at least some cases. If amusing is never qualified, there’s no difference between “amusing” and “side-splitting” or “hilarious”. All the dictionaries recognise a difference between hilarious and amusing, though COED muddies things a bit by defining hilarious as “very amusing”, which doesn’t work right with “very mildy funny”.
  3. Finished all but two in about 12 mins but then spent about 50% longer on the remaining two clues, for a final time of about 31 mins. Didn’t know about the brisling or European sprat (Sprattus sprattus apparently), though BRISTLING seemed the only possibility, and then couldn’t see TABU from T?B? for ages – long enough to start wondering about alternatives to TICKLER. So rather relieved that we won’t be seeing this puzzle at Cheltenham.
    1. I had pretty much exactly the same experience, though I’m sure I have seen the brisling before somewhere. What’s strange is that at one point I had what felt like a flash of inspiration/memory and wrote down ‘tuba’, yet still couldn’t see TABU – I have a feeling I must have struggled on a clue to this word once before.
  4. 40 minutes with far too long wasted trying to convince myself of DEETEST at 28ac.

    I’d estimate that between a quarter and a third of the answers went in from the definition alone, and I came here still not understanding the first part of the wordplay in 22ac. If Tim’s explanation is correct (and I have no reasomn to doubt this) I think it’s a hell of a leap of deduction that the setter is expecting of us. I agree 1dn was bad, but at least there the reasoning was clear having solved the clue with aid of the checking letters.

  7. Hi, first of all, thanks to this blog I now occasionally manage to finish the Times crossword, which used to be an enigma for me. I am Dutch, living in England.
    Today I can’t work out 2 down, and it isn’t blogged. Can you help please?
    Isabel
    2. Welcome to the blog Isabel. This clue uses some English slang “crim” being short for criminal then “on” = working as in “the cooker’s on” and then CRIMSON is a shade=a colour. This will have been a tough puzzle for people who don’t have English as their first language. Don’t ever hesitate to ask for any further help.
      1. Ok, thanks! I was on the wrong track. I saw crimson, but didn’t see shade as colour. And hadn’t thought of crim. Usually I can work it all out with the help of the blog, but if I am stuck again, I will come for help. Thanks, again,
        Isabel
        1. I’ve only come across one other non-native speaker (a Finnish girl) who could get anywhere with a cryptic crossword.  I’m seriously impressed!  Are there any other lurkers in a similar position?
          1. Well, you can’t imagine how proud I was when I did finish my first Times crossword. I have been doing the Sunday Times one for quite a while now, that’s sort of easy. Last March I read the T2 feature on the x-word, found this blog, and am an addict now. Usually I don’t have the time to finish them by myself, on Saturday I do take my time, and as there is no blog, I struggle on. And usually get most of it.
            All thanks to you people.
            Isabel
  8. 15:44, with far too long wasted trying to convince myself of DEETEST at 28ac.  Lots of new things here: BRISLING (9ac), GASH (26ac), CRIM (2dn), CHAIR (12dn), SOUBRETTE (14dn), CONTUSE (16dn), and the story of NIOBE (23dn).

    I agree with the definition quibbles about SCHADENFREUDE (11ac), MOIST (25ac) and UBOAT (1dn), and would add one about GOOSEFLESH (8dn).  But I think Tim’s complaint about HUNTSMEN (13ac) is a bit off: if a gold-digger hunts rich men, she still hunts men.  (No doubt she breathes, too, and that certainly wouldn’t be specific enough; but “hunts men” isn’t in the same league.)  I also don’t mind “Quality” for WATER in 22ac – I know nothing about jewellery, but of the first water is a common enough phrase.

    Clues of the Day: 28ac (DEEPEST), 6dn (UNDERWEAR), and perhaps also 2dn (CRIMSON).

    1. I must be missing something here. Whilst I have no problem with “first water” = “quality” (with or without reference to jewellery) I don’t see how “quality” = “water” on its own. Is it meant to refer to its position in the clue i.e. (first) WATER followed by ‘S + OFTENER?
        1. Water needn’t be the first water.  (The same would go for “class”, “rate”, or “degree”.)  Dictionary definitions of WATER include:

          Concise: “the quality of transparency and brilliance shown by a diamond or other gem”.
          Collins: “excellence, quality, or degree (in the phrase of the first water)”.
          Chambers: “class, quality, excellence, esp in the phrase of the first or purest water“.
          Shorter: “Degree of transparency and brilliance in a diamond or a pearl (formerly graded first water, second water, third water). E17. ▸ b of the first water, of the purest water, of the rarest water, etc. (fig.), unsurpassed in one’s (or its) class. Freq. derog.”

          1. Thanks, Mark. I’m without my trusty reference books at the moment. I should have known better than to post without checking them first.
  9. About 45 mins again, although I struggled much more than yesterday. I think there’s an expansion to fill the time available thing going on there. I came here not understanding WATER’S or GASH, too, so thanks to Tim for his explanations and links on NIOBE. Not much to add to Tim’s comments. I liked SCHADENFREUDE & GOOSEFLESH, in spite of their problems (The Wow doesn’t work for me on the &lit surface) but COD to REINDEER for its “attached to a bit”.

    And Tim, there’s a minor typo in the reference to “Gray’s Energy”. I think that was the much brighter sequel to the Elegy.

      1. Ha! So the joke went right over my head! Well I remember my first encounter with Sellar & Yeatman, but not that particular reference. I think I learnt most of what I know about British history from that book, together with the mnemonic “Willie, Willie, Harry, Stee, Harry, Dick, John, Harry Three”, even though Maud or Matilda isn’t on the list. Are you sure “The pub bound ploughman downs his pint and says G’day” isn’t from the Energy?
  10. Not convinced that moist equates to sloppy which delayed SW corner, otherwise plugged them in steadily over 30 mins or so.
  11. I made heavy weather of this. The surplus words already referred to irritated me as did some of the definitions also previously mentioned and I don’t work so well when I’m niggled. 35 minutes to solve.

    I must be missing something with REPEAL and POOR,LAWS – both rather weak and what’s the connection? I must join in the criticism of killer=U-BOAT. Like most I got it from T?B? must be TABU and it was my last in. If anybody solved the cryptic to get the answer, well done indeed. I luckily had no problem with “test” look at D?E?E?T it had to be DEEPEST.

    I get the feeling there’s a good setter in there somewhere who lacks discipline.

    1. The connection between 15ac and 19ac is that POOR LAWS (understood as bad legislation, rather than the historical piece of legislation alluded to in the definition) might need a REPEAL.

      I actually like 15ac, despite the flabbiness.

  12. 18:03 here, slowed down by DEEPEST (although in the end it had to be right), and TABU for the same reasons as everyone else. I thought it was quite clever in the end though, with the image of the surfacing submarine.
    I also didn’t understand GASH until coming here. Favourite clue had to be 6D though, definitely raised a smile.
  13. Just to let you know that I’ve now heard from Paul M and have entered his comment on the blog
  14. There goes my Tueday morning.
    Another confidence-sapper only finished with extensive use of “aids” (euphemism).
    Problems as already referred to, eg tabu, gash, brisling, waters, but I liked getting NIOBE which came up somewhere else recently (shows I am beginning to remember some of this stuff).
    Have I any right to quibble at this stage in my cruciverbal career? Schadenfreude is presumably what the setter will experience if he/she reads this comment.
  15. 21:52 .. ticked a number of clues in the top half. Witty stuff. The bottom felt more laboured. I got BRISTLING by working through the alphabet for the first letter and decided nothing else would really fit. Then writing _B__T horizontally beside the grid made 1d clear. I can’t think vertically.

    COD 3d LATCH

  16. really felt the North west frontier of this puzzle was contrived…i think the blogger is right in the to see u boat as killer is stretched…also agree that ticklish is more common adjective but can see that tickler fits the bill… hadnt come across the jewellery link re 22 across so this sat awkwardly in my solution for a long time. Didnt like deepest either and struggled fdor some reason with Huntsmen and Soubrette…
    Anyway done now around the hour mark…far too long!
  17. As so often happens, the one answer I was in doubt about wasn’t discussed in the blog.
    Could someone please explain the wordplay?
    What’s wrong with listing all the answers, instead of leaving out only two or three?
    Barbara
    1. I read it as ‘chair’= ‘carry in triumph’ + w(ife) + Oman. Odd syntax for the verb ‘chair’.
      1. I hope no one saw the preceding before I edited it (since the original version was exceptionally dim)!
    2. “chair” with the meaning here is surely a transitive verb.

      Barbara: See “About this blog” for the reasons we don’t list the lot.

      1. Isn’t it the wife who’s being carried? That’s what I meant about the odd syntax.
        1. I think the intention is that the surface reads as “In triumph, carry wife …” rather than “Chair wife to country’s president”.
  18. I found this tricky but got there, 23 minutes. IAMBUS and SOUBRETTE (though I think I’d heard of the word) from wordplay.
    1. Around 25m but gave up without completing “tabu”, which irritated me for similar reasons to others. Didn’t help that I was only about 80% sure of “bristling” and therefore uncertain about the b. But, in addition to the uboat = killer being too much of a jump and my not being able to see why “surfaced” is equivalent to upended, we had an unusual variant spelling and a definition that was very oblique: “ostracised” may mean something close to taboo, but it’s hard to imagine a context in which the words are interchangable, not least because people are ostracised while it is behaviour or things that are taboo. I can’t recall seeing so many artificial difficulties concentrated in a single clue. bc
      1. “Surfaced” is surely just “came up to the surface”. With the T of the U-boat on the top row of the grid, this seems a precise instruction. And the COED def includes people in the range of things that can be tabu. Unusual spelling but no great difficulty if you’ve come across Hindoo/Hindu. Very hard, esp. in conjunction with brisling, but not unfair. (And I’m not defending a setter known to me, just the clue as I see it.)
  19. Tough, about 45-50 minutes before I finally resorted to aids for my last entry, SOUBRETTE. My list of new words or meanings is the same as Mark’s above, save that I would add CRIM and was OK with CONTUSED. I have no real problem with 1D, only because I imagine everyone eventually came to T?B?, thence to TABU via ‘nothing else fits and it sorta means ostracized’. It was only after entering that I saw UB(O)AT, and actually thought it clever. I agree with Jimbo, though: anyone who solved this the right way round gets a tip of the cap. Also delayed by PEST/TEST and TORT/TROT. I do not like MOIST=sloppy; I’d say sloppy=overly sentimental, while MOIST can = ‘tearful’, which can = ‘mildly sentimental’, but that’s as close as I can get. Regards to all.

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