Times 24189

31 comments on “Times 24189”

1. 12:03 for this – Decent progress for 5-6 minutes, then becalmed for a while with 14 answers left, and then finished them off in another 4-5 minute burst. Order for these: 2, 1A, 4, 5, 10, 20, 24, 17D, 17A, 18, 6, 12, 15, 8.

   No significant general knowledge needed, and only a couple of difficult answer words – 6 CURTILAGE and 14 LODESTONE probably the hardest. So most difficulty from canny clueing, and hat tipped to setter.

   Edited at 2009-04-02 07:15 am (UTC)

2. OK I’ll bite. No accurate idea of time as I did this in two parts, but probably the best part of an hour.

   This was one of those puzzles which I satisfied at simply having finished unaided. Tricky wordplay and good surfaces all through. I would rate this as quite hard, with plenty of clever stuff.

   I like the nice long charades at 1ac, 10ac 26ac and 2dn, and the anagrams.

   Held myself up by putting POLISH at 20 from “Perfect language” without realising that the answer should be a homophone not a heteronym (and yes, I had to look that up!)

   I though some of the definitions may be a bit suspect but don’t have a dictionary handy to check – they are probably OK.

3. 37 min, and I had to cheat. Looking back, I wonder why. Or maybe not. Some of the surfaces were just too convoluted.
4. I also did it in two sessions taking nearly an hour in total. The first session was 22 minutes by which time I had completed the lower grid from NEBULOUS and DAMSON downwards and had the two long answers MONKEY BUSINESS and IMPRESSIONABLE as footholds in the top half.

   Then I adjourned to start my commute and every subsequent clue was a battle, but at least I finished it before arriving at work so there was no opportunity to use aids.

   But for all the problems I had in the top half I never felt completely stuck and out of ideas to pursue so I found this an enjoyable if quite testing puzzle.

   The only word that seemed unfamiliar was CURTILAGE which I solved from the wordplay, but having since looked up its precise meaning I realise I have met it before in title deeds which I was once paid to read in the course of my work.

   I didn’t know the meaning of LODESTONE as applied here, and I looked twice at COMEDIAN/Scream before applying the substitution test and finding it worked.

   1. Once again very similar experiences Jack. I did know CURTILAGE and had to work backwards for the wordplay, but LODESTONE was one of the definitions which I thought a bit odd.

      Thank goodness we don’t (for the most part) have title deeds any more in Australia!

5. 9:07.  No real hold-ups here, though I could only get CURTILAGE (6dn) from the wordplay.

   The clue for MINIM (9ac) was inventive – I’ve only just seen how it works.  According to TEA, there were 35 other possibilities for 12321; obviously one to get from the definition and justify from the wordplay.

   Clues of the Day: 1ac (LUMINESCENCE), 25ac (AMBLE), 3dn (NIMES), 14dn (LODESTONE), 17dn (BUFFET), 22dn (LEASH).

   1. Generally agree that this was a very good puzzle, particularly pleasing because, as well as having many inventive, witty clues as others have mentioned, it was very close to my difficulty limit and I was pleased to finish it unaided. Around 35 minutes.

      I do have one quibble, though, and it’s a major bugbear: “intern” is not within barking distance of being a homophone for “in turn” to my ear. I’d prefer homophones were banned altogether if they are going to result in clues as annoying as this. bc

      1. As far as I can tell, the vowel/consonant sounds in “intern” and “in turn” are the same – it’s the stress or presence/absence of a gap between words that’s different between the two.

         Eye thin Kyle KNOT bee do wing eh pole on weather pee pull wood pro scribe homophones or any combination of types thereof – it seems the kind of area where the folk in the supposed middle ground between a complete ban and “anything goes” would turn out not to agree on the range of permissible sub-types.

      2. I have to say that the intern/in turn homophone works for me. For what it’s worth the OED gives both identical phonetic transcriptions. To my ear the only difference is in the stress pattern – in “in turn” both words are stressed, in “intern” the first syllable is unstressed (in the context it’s a verb). Which just leaves the question of whether homophones require the same stress…..
         1. SNAP! Peter. Posted before yours appeared!
6. About 17 minutes for me. I guess it shows how far I’ve come that I thought it had taken a long time; it’s only a few months since I was grateful to finish the damn thing at all.

   I guessed CURTILAGE from the wordplay but wasn’t confident enough to put it in until I had all the crossing letters – trying to solve without aids; I only went to look it up after I’d put it in.

   I don’t recall ever seeing a clue such as 9ac (MINIM); the only indicators I remember for palindromes are such as “it’s the same either way” or “in both directions.” Nice clue, and I’ll have to remember that trick for occasions where I don’t recognise the definition straight off.

   1. In competitive terms, times for difficult puzzles are usually more important than times for easy ones, and this looks like a very good time – so far, the only three people to beat it have all been in the Grand Final of the Championship at least once since it was revived in 2006. If you continue to improve at anything like your current rate, speed will not be an issue, and only two things can stop you having a good shot at making the final too – big day nerves, and getting 89 of the answers right instead of 90.
7. Held up mightily in the CURTILAGE by the ENVious LIVERYMEN. Was looking for a messenger of Greek or Roman extraction. Some fine clueing as has been pointed out. Always a treat to see ENSCONCED and NEBULOUS, particularly when well clued. Also liked AMBLE, NIMES, LEASH & COMEDIAN. The longer constructions were generally reverse engineered in my case. LODESTONE I took just to mean magnetic, but Collins has it exactly as clued, pertaining to a personality.

   I had no problem with INTERN. We shall have to get audio on this site somehow so we can all send in our versions of the homophones.

   1. I recognise that “intern” and “in turn” are homophones for some solvers: but they aren’t for many others (Peter, as a Scot, for me the vowel in the former is like “eh” and the latter like “uh”, exactly as the spelling implies, suggesting that the spelling is rooted in differences in pronunciation that have been lost for some speakers).

      There’s a big difference in recognising “X and Y sound the same” and recognising “some people would pronounce X and Y in the same way even though I don’t”. If the pain were shared equally that would be fine, but I can imagine the grumbling that would ensue if words that were pronounced the same in Scotland, Ireland or Northumbria but not in the Home Counties were offered as homophones. bc

      1. As another Scot, I also pronounce the vowels differently. But I have learned to live with South East England homophones.

         I have a feeling you may be wrong about the history. I suspect that many English words were first seen by Scots in written form, and that they tended to mispronounce them based on the spelling. I think that is what happened to waistcoat and forehead, though most of the English have now also adopted the clearer pronunciations of those two.

      2. For crossword purposes, if we’re to have homophones, the only practical way to assess them seems to be the pronunciation given in the dictionaries. I claim that if the accent used for that purpose happened to be something Scottish rather than RP/”BBC English”, I’d accept the words that sound the same in the relevant part of Scotland as perfectly fair homophones. But you don’t have to believe me.
8. About 25 mins, inexplicably held up by BUFFET and FINISH at the end. I thought this was a really classy crossword with some great, taut clues. Hard to choose a COD, 24A and 22D are strong candidates. I wonder whether this one’s signed at 2D?

   Tom B.

9. After an hour, I had only about 2/3. I took a break and came back, about another 30 minutes.

   I had all the crossing letters for ‘comedian’, but still couldn’t think of it for a long time. Same thing with ‘syllabus’.

   The long ones all had very good clues, but three out of four went in from the literal.

10. A thoroughly enjoyable 25 minutes. No problems. No quibbles. Thank you setter.
11. 45 minutes here, with much of that stuck on 9ac, and the combination of 6d / 12ac / 15ac / 18ac. The above wasn’t helped by my insistence that the city I was looking for was NEMIS. Don’t ask… Lots of very clever clues, a lot I didn’t understand until coming here. COD 22d.
12. 28 minutes. I’m with Ross rather than Kurihan in finding the surfaces awkward in places, including 2d which Richard thought smooth. That said, I enjoyed a lot of the clue constructions so the setter is forgiven.

    Q-0, E-7, D-7.5, COD LEASH. I across rock – purveyors of electronic chill-out vibes Nascent Luminescence, who sell very few CDs since the sort of numpties who enjoy electronic chill-out vibes usually spell either nascent or luminescence (or both) wrong when searching for them on Amazon.

    1. Mind you, Nae Cent, Edinburgh based busking supergroup did very well out of the confusion, as did Loomin’ Ascent, Nepalese ex-pat folk duo from Battersea.
       1. The people who make lavatory air fresheners shaped liked rare Chinese vases, Loo Ming Essence, have also done well.
13. Peter I’m not sure why you think I would doubt your word – I disagree with you about this but have no doubt that you are determined to be fair.

    While I can understand why dictionaries can be viewed as authoritative in defining meaning (where they attempt to be comprehensive) I see no reason why they should be so viewed with reference to pronunciation (where they very obviously don’t).

    Some words will be homophones for virually any native speaker – two and too, grieve and greave, site and sight, bawl and ball and so on. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to expect setters to restrict themselves to these avoid and “homophones” that that are nothing of the sort for many solvers. bc

    1. Sorry, I should have found a way to indicate that “You don’t have to believe me” was part jest, and part confession of my own biased problems in imagining a Britain where the main accent was from Scotland. (That’s “main” as used by Edinburgh-based Chambers when describing their punctuation guidance.)

       “Bullet-proof homophones only” sounds appealing, but I’m sceptical about the practicality of deciding what does and doesn’t sound the same “for virtually any native speaker”. As a related example, I thought there were two ways of pronouncing the A in “bath”, but this map shows (with recordings) three choices, plus about nine anomalous versions, without venturing outside England. So whatever set of rules was used for making bullet-proof homophones, my guess is that there would always be the possibility of someone saying “it’s not a homophone for me!”.

       1. Could not help but be drawn into this discussion. I was always of the belief (much ridiculed) that it was possible to speak english without an accent. The oft used concept is “the queens english” however if you analyse the royal parlance it is clear that it possesses its own set of quirks (see hyse for house). The only known source for the commonly accepted default language is therefore the guidance in the reputable dictionaries (which I assume do not disagree markedly apart from their addition of alternatives). This in itself is sensible, since they possess a spattering of alternate/archaic/colloquial spellings, so why not the same for pronunciation. Finally, before any retorts, this is not meant to be a superiority thing as there is great beauty in regional variation, however in an almost bureaucratic way, it is great to have an acknowleged base.
          1. It’s a good argument in theory, but in practice I would lay heavy odds that the “standard” pronunciation that gets into dictionaries is not remotely standard, but merely the way upper-class Oxbridge graduates tend to speak.

             This may be less true now than it was in past decades, but the practice of past decades has fossilised into dictionaries, I suspect.

             For me, as long as a word sounds VAGUELY like another word, I’m happy with it being clued as a homophone.

       2. Venturing outside England: As a lad, I was always puzzled by the term “bare belly Joe” in Australia’s second most famous national song Click Go the Shears. As the speaker from Horton in Ribblesdale confirms, it is indeed a “bare bellied ewe”. I think ewe = you is another oft used “homophone”. And as for the Queen’s English, I heard one of her servants put at least three distinct vowel sounds in the word “hat” on one documentary. (I always like to keep well informed in matters regal.)
14. A few sessions between hangover and recovery from lack of sleep. Didn’t see the wordplay for INTERN, that was a guess. I liked the wordplay for RETRENCHMENT.
15. Tough puzzle, I thought, 46 mins, with COMEDIAN my last answer – I got MINIM on first run thru. Though I was going to take even longer, then LUMINESCENCE came and the rest became easier. Favourite clue: INTERN
16. No problem with the homophone at 8d.

    Just the 5 “easies”:

    20a Perfect language in speech (6)
    FINISH. Sounds like FINNISH – another homophone I don’t have a problem with.

    21a Newts lad distributed in marshy parts (8)
    WETLANDS. Anagram of first two words.

    7d Scattering of real spies in mob that’s easily influenced (14)
    IMPRESSIONABLE. Anagram of words 3-6.

    17d Box from place selling snacks (6)
    BUFFET. Another example of a word for beating the s*** out of someone in the name of sport?

    23a Panic, lacking energy to make mark (4)
    SCAR(E). How much time did I spend trying to find a sort of grass lacking an E that would give the answer? Sometimes I overcomplicate things.

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