Times 24,081 – Mindb

Author   sotiraPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
25:50 for me. A week of challenging puzzles goes on as mischief and cunning abound in another really inventive crossword.

I found it very hard to get started on this, finally making inroads with MONOTONIC, SCAMPERING and DUTCH COURAGE (solving it, not drinking it, tempted though I was).

The devilish explanation of 25a was a long time coming. And there’s one I’m still not at all sure about – 13 across. Corrections and mathematical expertise welcomed.

Across
1 COD,E
9 AR(S)ENA,L – arena + L (Roman fifty) with S(econd) boring into it. Neat surface echoing the old cry from the terraces of “Boring, boring Arsenal”, though personally I can never hear ‘Arsenal’ without coughing and thinking of Eric Morecombe
11 NER(EI)DS – ‘ie’ reversed
13 PRIME – Crossing fingers here. ‘Prime somebody’ – put them in the picture. And I think the “At least two” points to the realm of mathematics, but expert help would be gratefully received. I may be totally wrong about the whole thing.
21 R(E)ICH – def. is ‘State no longer’. The final ‘e’ of expenditure is ‘curbed’ (ie. framed) by ‘rich’ (well off). Surface is precisely half-right in respect of Britain’s current situation.
22 DETRI(MEN)Tus
24 HO,ED,OWN – Yee-ha, take yer pardner by the hand…
25 BENDING – After finishing the puzzle, I spent ten minutes staring at my thumb trying to work out how it had a ‘bend in g’. Then the penny dropped. If it hasn’t yet for you, I’m not going to spoil your fun.
27 KEEN – double def.

Down
2 DISCLOSE – Def. is ‘Report’. This Dean lives in the Close from hell, loosely speaking (Dis)
4 CH(L)OE – ‘L’ in CHORE minus the ‘R’
6 EUROPEAN UNION – nice surface for the good old European onion, found abbreviated in F(EU)D
7 IRITIS – I + another ‘I’ inside (STIR)reversed
8 GA(SHE)D – guessing about the ‘GAD’ while solving, but they were indeed one of the twelve tribes of Israel, traditionally descended from the son of Zilpah, who was called, er, Gad.
15 MA(CE,DO)NIA (which any Greek will tell you isn’t a country – sore point over there)
16 MADE,LINE
19 BRAHM,S – easy if you remembered that Brahma is traditionally the creator. Not so easy for those of us who’d forgotten.
20 CINEMA – anagram of ‘American’ minus the ‘ra’

57 comments on “Times 24,081 – Mindb”

  1. I agree. A hard puzzle but fair and enjoyable. I also took some time to get started with MONOTONIC, DUTCH COURAGE, IRITIS and NEREIDS, but predictably took longer than Sotira after that. About 45 mins all up.

    I think at 12A the anagrind is “When distribution goes amiss”, (tell man to)*, ALLOTMENT = share (def).

    13A I agree. I believe part of the definition of a prime number is that it must be 2 or greater (so 1 is not prime).

    GAD (as a part of Israel, not a tribe) came up in a recent puzzle.

    1. Thanks for that on ‘prime’, kurihan. And apologies – I had mistyped 12 instead of 13 in the introduction, now corrected. It was 13 that I was unsure of, but you seem to have confirmed it.
      1. No problem. Someone might find the comment on 12ac useful anyway – it’s an unusually long anagrind.

        I’m still not 100% sure about the thumb, but if I’m right it’s more a “bend in G”. No?

            1. Ditto. The solution took a millisecond to register. The courage to write it in without understanding took much, much longer. The understanding itself, sadly, only came when I read Jimbo’s comment. Thanks Jimbo!

              Doh!

  2. A cracking good puzzle, although slow at about 45 min. 13 ac was last, and took forever, which is an embarrassment. 18 ac the first clue in a long time to raise an irrepressible guffaw, and so is my COD COW and COM.
  3. 25ac evaded me until i came here. I like it. Regarding
    prime numbers; traditionally they are numbers that are have no factors i.e. divisible only by themselves and unity. 2 is the smallest number to fulfill this. However there are arguments to include 1 and even 0; not only that negative numbers satisfy the condition but are they smaller? Most mathematicians gloss over this because it upsets the Riemann hypothesis which is something of a Holy Grail in the subject. See Marcus de Sautoy; but if you want to be completely confused (or transported) check out the works of Peter Plichta.
    1. See? I was right – it was “something to do with maths”. Thanks, alanjc. I’m both more and less confused (and impressed).
    2. Even simpler: the fundamental theorem of algebra precludes 1 from being a prime.

      The funny thing about 2 being a prime is that the set of prime numbers is made up of all the odd primes and 2. It thus follows that 2 is the oddest prime of all…

  4. I seemed to make better progress on this than the Monday/Tuesday puzzles so I was surprised to find it took 50 minutes. PRIME was my last in, bunged in with little degree of certainty. I had thought of it a lot earlier but couldn’t see why. My reasoning, which I had thought was a bit dubious turned out to be correct.

    I’ve seen that very clue to DUTCH COURAGE here or in the ST within the past year so it should have gone in much sooner than it did.

  5. If I was setting this clue, and was really nasty (which of course I’m not) and wanted to send solvers galloping off in a totally wrong direction (which I would never consider doing) I might just delete “thumb has it” and substitute “as the proverb would have”.
  6. Agreed another cracking good puzzle. About 40 minutes to solve. Why do we get these runs of pleasant but easy followed by tough but enjoyable. I also got DUTCH COURAGE as my first entry – there might be a message there? I’m not sure if NO THROUGH NO ROAD will cause problems for offshore solvers. Congratulations to the setter.
  7. More setter congrats as the surface meanings are good throughout.

    Something must have suited me about this one as I finished in 8:55 – roughly what I’d like to say was my average. Took a little while to get going, with 12A first in, but then did OK with a muniyte or so at the end to justify BENDING, which I felt was necessary to avoid any nasty surprises about BONDING. At least two giggles – 18A again, and the ‘boring Arsenal’ implication.

    9/10 might make a “bad crossing” for those outside the UK, but I think the wordplay will be clear enough, with the S and L in 9 from other answers.

    1. Ironically Arsenal’s second team, as seen in this year’s Carling Cup, are probably the least boring side in the country.
  8. Another 40-minuter but throughly enjoyable throughout. I started with 18 and finished with 13.

    Ticks against bending, snapdragon, EU and cinema, but 1d made me laugh so I’ll make that my COD. Was anyone else thinking of kid or lamb or similar for “a little butter”? Crafty sod.

    Q-0, E-9.5, D-8.5, COD 1d

  9. A very warm and satisfying 33 minutes. Kudos to the setter. This was one of the most inventive puzzles I’ve seen; with every other clue being either novel, or at least uncommon, in approach.

    If it weren’t such a great puzzle I’d probably complain about the use of generic people’s-names as solutions twice in the same puzzle (CHLOE, MADELINE), and also about the use of ‘At back of’ in 24A which seems like a lot of misleading padding. But I won’t because the whole puzzle has a special feel.

    As one ‘from outside the UK’ I can say that none of the last 3 puzzles have been so UK-centric as to cause me personally difficulties on those grounds alone.

    Lots of astericks against the clues, but a wild-card choice for me today is 12A. That long anagrind adds a lot to what would have otherwise been a trite clue.

  10. I thought this was the easiest so far this week, though that isn’t saying much! About an hour, something like twice my usual time. Nothing in particular held me up (apart from a few question marks about 13ac / 27ac), just slow slow progress!
  11. I can only add my congrats to the setter. Some fiendishly inventive and deceptive surface readings, but all fair. I failed to complete at first sitting and returned to the puzzle at intervals in the course of the morning, so have no idea of final time, but it must have been comfortably over 1 hr 30 mins. All the correct answers eventually came, but the BENDING penny never fully dropped, sotira, so thanks to jimbo for the explanation. Brilliant clue. Given the toughness of this puzzle, Peter B’s time of 8.55 mins borders on the supernatural!

    Michael H

    1. I just couldn’t decide whether to give the game away on that one, Michael, because I enjoyed my own ‘Doh!’ moment so much. I settled for an extra clue in the title of today’s blog.

      I agree completely about Peter’s time. It’s puzzles of this sort of difficulty which reliably separate the outstanding solvers from the rest – a good argument, I think, for having more difficult puzzles at the Championship.

      1. You’re being much too nice. Today’s puzzle suited me for whatever reason and once I got going I was never badly stuck. For anyone tempted to think that Mark Goodliffe’s win this year was down to easy puzzles, let’s look back to his other win, in 1999. Just before the last of four puzzles (timed separately back then) he was equal first, with four others within 2.5 minutes and therefore in serious contention. The last puzzle took all the other finalists at least 10:30 and most of them over 13 minutes, but Mark finished it in 9, so the result was much the same – second to fifth places were spread over a couple of minutes, starting at 3.5 behind Mark.

        The thing that really separates the best solvers from the rest is not being affected by the difficulty of the puzzles. As Mark’s won everything from the Times 2 monthly Race the Clock to the Listener’s Solver Silver Salver, he’s got that in spades.

        1. Definitely not questioning Mark G’s credentials. He’s terrifyingly good. And you’re right about adaptability. But there are some easier puzzles where it’s possible to wing it, or even fake it, with some serendipitous guesswork (I should know). Puzzles like this week’s eliminate that possibility. That’s all I’m saying.
  12. I am finding these very hard this week…some cracking clues though-the problem is that i cant easily see the answers – at first glance but that i guess is the skill of the setter…I like the B ending…the detritus…so many to list…
    can we have an easier one for tomorrow please?
  13. I was distracted many times in trying to get this out (easily distracted these days, I guess), but eventually got there in 33 minutes with PRIME the last in (with a question mark and a hope). Tricky clueing of accessible words, I liked 7D a lot.
  14. A better showing for me than yesterday. I missed EU completely in 3d and also struggled with 13a. Otherwise all nice clues.
    A question for you bloggers. How do you get the crossword so early that you can complete it in the middle of the night?Do you stay up and do it or go to bed and get up early?
    1. Normally, Susie, I set my alarm for about 4am and try to have the blog up published by 6am, just before my ten mile run and ice bath.

      Of course, there’s a malicious rumour that some of us live in other time zones and are therefore able, by advancing the computer clock, to access the crossword the previous evening. But who would believe a tall story story like that?

      1. I think I am jet lagged.I never did understand time zones and datelines.Congrats anyway at being able to do every crossword, whatever time it is.
    2. Being in Sydney, I print it out when it appears at 11am our time, and do it over coffee or lunch (occasionally both!)
  15. I found this very enjoyable and inventive, with, like others, PRIME being the last and no confirmation of BENDING’s wordplay till I came here. Solving time, 32 mins. COD 17 down.
  16. This is the easiest of three hard crosswords this week with Tuesday’s SE corner keeping me awake for a lot of last night.

    However, as a professor of mathematics (albeit retired and albeit a professor of applied, not pure, mathematics), I must say that 13A does not include a definition of a prime number; it’s not even close! This prevents me agreeing with the abundant praise above for this crossword. Acceptable would have been “The only even one of these put in the picture” or “Two is the lowest one of these put in the picture”. Re a comment above: By definition, prime numbers are positive integers and one is not a prime.

    1. The def isn’t mathematically accurate, no, but this is a crossword, not a maths paper. Is “at least two” as a definition of “prime” significantly worse than things like “state” as an indicator for PA, VA or one of 48 other choices? The main point of a cryptic crossword clue is normally to convincingly suggest something other than the true meaning of the words in the clue. The orginal clue (“At least two put in the picture”) does this. Your alternatives don’t (and the use of “these” indicates a plural rather than a singular). The final proof is in the pudding – as far as people have indicated here, they solved and (subject to mathematical knowledge) understood this clue, even if it was their last answer.

      Edited at 2008-11-26 05:54 pm (UTC)

  17. Can’t agree with the above, I’d say. If you’ve a set in which the lowest number is two, ‘two at least’ seems an adequate definition.
  18. new to this blog, obviously – but I can’t find a dictionary definition of anagrind anywhere. (And I have to confess, I still don’t get “bending”). Sorry!
    1. Anon – ‘anagrind’ is a playful piece of jargon for the word or words in a clue that indicate an anagram. You’ll also see ‘anagrist’ for the words or letters to be anagrammatized (grist to the grinding mill of the anagram). So, in the clue:

      One may have got lineages sorted out (11)

      the ‘anagrind’ is ‘sorted out’ and the anagrist ‘got lineages’.

      kurihan, above, refers to an unusually complex anagrind which is clearly meant to confuse the solver and disguise the definition (worked for me) in 12a.

      I don’t know if ‘anagrind’ has made it into any dictionaries. A lot of jargon doesn’t.

      ‘thumb’ has a ‘b’ at the end, or a ‘b ending’.

      And it’s GENEALOGIST, of course.

      1. As far as I know, “anagrind” is local to this blog. Crossword jargon doesn’t generally make it into dictionaries, like most jargon. “Anagram fodder” is a bit more common than “anagrist” for the same concept.
        12A was easy for me – probably because I saw “share” as a possible def, then either ‘allotment’ as possible answer or ‘tell man to’ as a set of 9 letters, and then made the rest fit.
          1. Interesting idea. It certainly works.
            Googling ‘anagrind’ throws up a lot of results now, including the Fifteen Squared site, Yahoo answers and a site devoted to The Hindu Crossword. The OED may yet come calling …
            1. But it’s a bit prosaic – the grind/grist image is much more poetic. It’s a bit like the development of language generally, with back formations and coinings of words by analogy until the real origins become obscured. Interesting to know if ANAGRIND and ANAGRIST came into being at the same time as a pair, or whether perhaps ANAGRIND originated in the way I suggest, and ANAGRIST followed by analogy – who knows? I’m new to the blog – perhaps the old hands might know, although if PB doesn’t recall we may never know.
              1. I’m sure that anagrind came first – “anagrist” I don’t actually remember seeing before this discussion.

                Courtesy of the deeper reaches of Google blog search, the oldest anagrind reference I can find on this blog is at http://community.livejournal.com/times_xwd_times/18894.html (note on 8D)

                I tried rec.puzzles.crosswords as an alternative. All but one of its ‘anagrind’ hits are later, but there is one going back to 1998 at
                http://groups.google.com/group/rec.puzzles.crosswords/browse_frm/thread/9c6517fd7920be0d/857e04975c2ff67c?lnk=gst&q=anagrind#857e04975c2ff67c (Notes on “A dirge fit to unsettle the contented” about 75% of the way down this long msg)

                My best guess is that these were two independent inventions, both via the portmanteau route – I’m sure I’ve seen something else like “homophind” or “containicator”, but can’t remember exactly what. (The 1998 writer, Gail Koontz, is from N America and our former blogger dhogg is in Scotland.)

  19. I didn’t get prime (mainly because I spelt nereids wrong and so I guessed something wrong for the down clue there). But, as a mathematician, I never even thought of “prime” since “2 at least” seems just plain wrong. “2, say” would have been better and at least correct. The problem with the idea that “if you have a set that the lowest number is two” then it is OK, is that there are so many of sets for which the lowest number is two (even numbers, most obviously). And surely if it is the set it should be “primes”.
    1. My Goodness,this blog is getting technical mathematically speaking. Anyone know how to draw a Venn diagram in LJ? It won’t help but would pretty things up a bit.
  20. Never thought of this as anything else except an abbreviation of ANAGRam INDicator as Kurihan has mentioned above. Rather an ugly word tho that I have always avoided in my blogs here and on fifteensquared.
  21. I don’t usually comment if, like today, I’ve done an evening solve – usually everything I might have said has been said. This is true of today’s puzzle but I just want to add my thanks and congratulations to the setter for today’s belter. It’s a long, long time since we’ve had anything as good as this. COD nod to 18a.
  22. I presume 17d is ‘pentagon’ but can’t quite get my head round all of the wordplay – I presumed prison could be ‘Pent’onville, but am at a loss to explain the rest.

    Ian

      1. obvious and simple, when you see… was led into thinking it was more complicated than it was. Thanks!
  24. The only reason for this comment is that it will bring the count up to 50 for the first time in my experience!
  25. It’s 6.50pm Sydney time (7.50am UK time) and I can’t log on to the Times Crossword Club – I don’t get past the log-on page.

    Is anyone else having a problem?

    1. Quote from the bulletin board:

      November 26

      We are currently experiencing problems with the login process for Internet Explorer users, which means that some members may be unable to get in to the Crossword Club. Our technical team is working on this issue, which is affecting all the sections of Times Online that are behind registration. If you have a Firefox browser, you should be able to log in as usual. We will let members know as soon as the problems have been resolved.

      (Their Firefox suggestion works for me.)

      1. Thank you Peter. I got home at about 9.30 pm and had no problem logging in with Firefox on the Mac (office uses PC and Explorer).

        The trouble is that I am so knackered I can’t really be bothered any more….

    2. Yes I am having problems too. I blame the gremlins we upset with all that talk of time zones yesterday. Are you ahead or behind? Happy New Year, just in case.
  26. I knew i’d get into trouble for mathologising. I did say ‘traditionally’ 2 is the smallest prime number looked at quantitively that is. For the purposes of the crossword clue it works well enough i’d say. Negative prime numbers are a nonsense i’ll concede but i am still not sure about 1 though or which tenet of algebra it would violate. No serious mathematician has looked at Plichta’s system as far as i know; he should have coined another word for his kind of ‘prime ‘.
  27. Or not as it happens. I had to come to Sotira’s excellent blog to find out what on earth 13a was. I managed to get and understand all the others – including the B-ENDING of the THUMB at 25a – but this one beat me. Not because it isn’t a perfectly adequate clue – for me anyway – it’s just that it was too good for me!

    There are 10 “easies” in this puzzle. Not sure that many of them qualify for that title but they have been left out of the blog anyway:

    3a Rushing vehicle ploughs into grass (10)
    S CAMPER ING. Nice Volksy Bus clue.

    12a When distribution goes amiss tell man to share (9)
    ALLOTMENT. Great anagrind – anagrist is (tell man to).

    14a Turnstile man extraordinarily helpful (12)
    INSTRUMENTAL. Another good anagram – of (turnstile man).

    26a Boy snatching sleep by trail that’s in the garden?
    S NAP DRAG ON

    1d During tea is a little butter available for pieces of bread? (8)
    CHA PAT IS. Managed to see PAT for little butter before getting sidetracked by KID.

    5d Doctor with no medicine sounding consistently dreary? (9)
    M.O. NO TONIC

    10d Get on to hard ground, round crude notice at side of track (2,7,4)
    NO TH ROUGH ROAD. Crude = ROUGH inside anagram of (on to hard).

    17d Prison label being worn – rectangle snipped at one corner? (8)
    PEN TAG ON. Instead of “shape” we have a very novel literal. Nice one.

    23d Volunteers rail against something not allowed (5)
    TA BOO. Part-time soldiers are a rotten audience. Within 10 years this will be a very good period TV drama starring Tom Hardy.

Comments are closed.