Quick Cryptic 2804 by Asp

92 comments on “Quick Cryptic 2804 by Asp”

1. I also thought some of his might be hard for less experienced solvers but it didn’t delay me unduly and I completed the grid in 11 minutes.

   Rather than being a double definition clue, TENOR (singer) at 18dn relies on aural wordplay [delivery of] “tenner” (note). It’s actually something of a CHESTNUT itself.

   This was Asp’s fourth offering.

2. Apart from whacking in ‘great/grate’ where WHOLE ended up I did pretty well today. Breezed through TENOR/tenner exactly as Jackkt did. I knew it was a bit hard but the answers kept coming. Ended up with every checker for COUNTERPOINT but still needed pen and paper and more than one trip through the alphabet to get it – ‘set off’, nice. All green in 14.32 – I think it took me longer to crack COUNTERPOINT than the 2.09 Verlaine took for the whole puzzle.

3. Yes. TENNER as a homophone of TENOR should be a write-in for folks of a certain age (who probably rarely got their hands on one) but I think it would cause trouble for our friends across the pond.
   The second definition for TEMPLE was a bit of a stretch and for a QC I think it is out of place.
   Enjoyable though. COD to the amusing OWLET.
   Thanks C and setter.

4. This was going swimmingly for a while, until it wasn’t. The further down the grid I went the harder it got, and I finally crossed the line in 13.57 which is about par x 2 for me. For my LOI, BENEFACTOR, Asp cunningly laid a sucker trap into which I unhesitatingly walked, believing ‘of France’ meant it was bound to start with ‘de’. I got nowhere, and realised way too late it was an anagram. TEMPLE, PORTION and CLARINET (I started with a speculative chasi…, then tried clavicle which is not in fact an instrument) also took too long. Terrific crossword, thanks to Asp and curarist.

5. DNF; chestnut though it be, TENOR (‘delivery of note’) escaped me.
   I assume that TEMPLE is a reference to either the Inner Temple or the Middle Temple, 2 of the 4 Inns of Court. But they’re Inns, not temples.

   1. Collins: Temple either of two buildings in London and Paris that belonged to the Templars. The one in London now houses two of the chief law societies.

      We have our own Templar blogging for us on alternate Thursdays.

      1. So TEMPLE refers to the building that houses the Inner and Middle Temples, and the building is the ‘office for law society’; for two societies, actually. Fair enough; still, I agree with Curarist.

         1. I’m sure Templar as our resident legal eagle will clarify later if needs be. I mentioned in my early comment that I thought some of the puzzle was hard so I’m not disagreeing over the level of difficulty, and this was one of the clues I had in mind.

            1. I thought the clue either very devious or very dubious, take your pick. We have the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple, both Inns of Court as Kevin notes, but to call an Inn of Court either a law society or even a society of/for lawyers is in my view a bit of a stretch and their buildings are not offices but (if anything) members’ clubs. We have Temple Church, and we have Temple underground station, and that completes the Temples I am aware of – the Templars’ temple no longer exists. And to add to the confusion, we also have the Law Society, which genuinely is a society of/for lawyers – but it has nothing to do with the Temple as its premises are in Chancery Lane. So Temple as “office for law society” (with or without capitalisation) seems to me to be very iffy.

               1. Couldn’t agree more!

      2. Hi Jackkt
         Is the Collins reference re the buildings in London and Paris referring to the Knights Templar ?

         1. No idea, Gordon, I just copied it in.

   2. Also Solicitors are members of The Law Society whose Head Office is at The Laa Society Hall, Chancery Lane, London. Being a solicitor it took me ages to via away from Chancery and on to Temple. Not the best rearched clue but still a great offering by ASP

6. 34:01. Oh dear. ASP again! Too many that just took too long, especially on the right-hand side with the long ones TOWNSHIP, COUNTERPOINT and BENEFACTOR and many of the shorter ones too

7. Decidedly chewy in places but saved in the end by getting enough checkers for the tricky longer answers to ‘brute force’ my way way through.
   Like LindsayO I spent a lot of time on LOI BENEFACTOR convinced that it was going to start ‘de’.
   Top quality puzzle but maybe a bit of a stretch for a QC in places.
   Finished in 11.38.
   Thanks to Curarist

8. Was it the one’s with the W that troubled you? Would have been done in less than 15 but owlet and whole held me up. Still a smidge over 15 I’ll take on a puzzle where KDNF!
   Thanks Curarist…Not a Cardiologist? Hart Man as in Phil who voiced Troy your avatar…perhaps a hand orthopod?)
   Thanks Asp

   1. Haha! I hadn’t spotted the connection to the late Phil Hartman. You may be overthinking it! The clue’s in the name, as they say

      1. I’m going with the latter then!👍🙏🙌🤞🩺

         1. Nope. Try again…!

9. I wish I’d managed to do a Kevin and not finish, but I soldiered on and came home bleeding and bedraggled in 20 minutes plus change.

   1. Ya gotta know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em.

10. Over 20 and still got one wrong. For TEMPLE, I put PEOPLE on the basis that it fitted, P comes before T in an alphabet search, and people are society. It was my LOI and I was cooked.

    Tough puzzle, especially the Right Hand Side. SPOT eventually opened it up.

    I was tempted with CHASTE for the anagram, when one is chastened it feels like criticism.

    COD BELITTLE

    Saw the Northern Lights in Southern England last night for the first time in my life. So there’s that.

    1. Spent a whole week in Iceland a few years back trying to see them and saw nothing. I’ve now seen them three times in as many months in the north of England – and I’ve never seen them before in my life.

    2. I’ve yet to see them. Currently in Mallorca. Last night the GB village WhatsApp group was pinging with photos so I asked my son to step out of our house and take a snap. Rubbish….he blamed it on his ancient iphone.

       1. The iPhone seems to see them better than the naked eye. My pictures were much more impressive than what I could actually see, something to do with Ultraviolet light.

          1. Or else (alas) anno domini. I’ve seen the Northern Lights 3 or 4 times, the first time 25 years ago and the last time just 2 years ago, and younger eyes are much better at seeing them in colour – the older you get, the more they tend to shade towards a pearly grey. Still spectacular, especially if swirling, but to see the glorious colours you need either young eyes or a camera.

11. This was a lovely crossword at the top of the QC range for me. Not easy for sure and it took me to the far end of my usual 10-15 minutes but a great indicator of what lies ahead for those who aspire to moving on to the big Times Crossword.

12. Struggled with Asp before and struggled again today. No particular reason but COUNTERPOINT just seemed a stretch to crack which took me over 30 minutes to complete with a bit of teeth gnashing.
    Thanks Asp and Curarist.

13. 12:38 (birth of Dafydd ap Gruffydd, Prince of Wales)

    I too fell for the great/great trap at 9a, which slowed down the right hand side of the grid. TOWNSHIP was my LOI.

    Thanks Curarist and Asp

14. DNF (which at least makes this a 1.0K day). My downfall was CLARINET (should have got), BENEFACTOR (could have got if I hadn’t like several others decided it started with DE- for “of France”) and TEMPLE (tough with only one of the three checkers and, see discussion above, a very “interesting” definition). I also tried GREAT/GRATE at first (not sure about perfect = whole, not quite the same thing) and I’m also not sure I agree that “barrier that surrounds” leads to fence – there are fences which separate rather than surround and there are barriers that surround which are not fences – or that “consideration” and “factor” are that close either. You can certainly take factors into consideration, but are they synonyms?

    What is “delivery of” doing in 18D? It adds nothing as “Singer’s note” would be a perfect 2-word DD. Or “special” in 21A, another word that I would argue is unnecessary and which had me wondering what I was missing.

    Which sounds like I got out of bed on the wrong side, was securely on the wrong wavelength, and any number of other euphemisms. Not entirely true: there was much here I liked, and much I understood, but alas not quite enough of either and I leave the field beaten and – for the third time in Asp’s brief 4 puzzle innings – wondering where the boundary for QCs lies.

    Many thanks Curarist for the blog.
    Cedric

    1. 18d Tenor I think that “delivery of” is the homophone flag?

       1. Yes that makes sense. Thank you.

    2. I’m in complete agreement with you Cedric and usually find that I’ve struggled with the same issues as you.
       I just cannot get my brain around Asp and DNF today. That’s three out of four for me too! Grrrr…

15. Finished correctly in 50 minutes. First success for a while. Hooray !

    Jackkt is correct – this puzzle was tough for less experienced solvers (i.e. me). All the more satisfaction in solving it.

    Nothing specific but I found this puzzle had some venom in it – rather like the asp which reputedly bit
    Cleopatra in the breast to kill her. Regarding the name Asp – it also reminds me of a Microsoft programming tool for web pages called ASP.NET which I found almost impossible to use successfully.

16. You see, this just confirms my status in my own head as the anti-neutrino. On the whole I don’t really go very fast, but generally I don’t get really stuck either. I’m just a bash-through-it-in-about-8-minutes-however-easy-or-hard-it-is kinda guy. So today I thought that this was just pretty standard and it took 07:51, pausing only really on MONUMENTALLY, FACTOR (where I tried to believe in FLAWOR for a while) and LOI/COD CLARINET – what an absolutely super clue, lovely deception.

    So then, TEMPLE. People not interested in legal quibbles can stop reading now.

    This is one of those clues where knowing too much makes you question the dictionaries. Collins says: “Either of two buildings in London and Paris that belonged to the Templars. The one in London now houses two of the chief law societies.” Two serious issues with this definition.

    First, it makes it sound as though there is “a building” in London which is “the Temple”. There isn’t. There’s Temple Church – ancient (though heavily restored after unwelcome attention from the Luftwaffe), magnificent, built by the Knights Templar, jointly owned by Inner and Middle Temple. But it’s not “the Temple” or indeed anything other than “Temple Church”. “The Temple” is not a building at all, it’s an entire area with dozens and dozens of buildings, divided into zones known as Inner, Outer and Middle. (These are just geographical boundaries, not buildings either.)

    Second, calling the Honourable Society of the Inner Temple (my Inn) and the Honourable Society of the Middle Temple “law societies” is … well, it may not be technically wrong but it’s not right! To English lawyers, “the Law Society” means only one thing, and that’s the governing body for solicitors. Inner and Middle Temple are always known as “Inns”, like all the four Inns of Court (in the old rhyme, “Inner for the rich, Middle for the poor, Lincoln’s for the scholar and Gray’s for the bore”). So yes they are Honourable Societies for lawyers, but no they are not “law societies”. And barristers don’t have “offices” anyway, they have “Chambers” (though the Inns do have offices for administrative purposes).

    Enough already. It’s not Asp’s fault, it’s a dictionary issue. Many thanks Asp and curarist.

    1. Very helpful and insightful.
       Thanks.

    2. Many thanks. Do we owe you a consultation fee or was this one pro bono?

       1. My clerks will be in touch with the bill 😉

    3. The only building I know around that area is The Temple Brewhouse on Essex Street. Not necessarily good for legal advice, but cheaper, and you can watch sport.

17. Well I found it hard to get stuck in. I felt some of the defs were a little loose. I don’t know how long I usually take but I would say this was 150% of my usual time.
    Very slow to get 22a Benefactor; yes I too was expecting de-something.

18. 36:26

    Well, at least, I solved it! Bogged down in the second half with FACTOR, COUNTERPOINT, BENEFACTOR, PORTION, TEMPLE (LOI).

    Looking back, the difference between today’s slog from Asp and the puzzles I enjoyed earlier this week is unhelpful defs, too much misdirection and a pinch of obscurity. The sad part about being worn down by a solve like this is any enjoyment I got during the early going from clues like CHESTNUT, TOWNSHIP and SEXTET evaporates.

    Have a good weekend everybody who’s not back for Saturday 👍

19. DNF x 2. Feeling rather desperate by then, biffed People instead of TEMPLE. Also looked up CLARINET as I fell into the trap and thought I needed a bowed instrument.
    Very difficult. FOsI ARIA, WHOLE. LOI COUNTERPOINT (biffed). Actually many were biffed so the blog was much needed, Curarist.
    As for time, took ages.

20. I got a bit stuck today and my usual 12/13 minutes expanded to 20.
    LOI TOWNSHIP after biffing Tenement early.
    Nearly failed to get WHOLE as my alpha trawl had lost steam by then; I also struggled to see Whole =Perfect, but once I saw it I thought well ok…
    I too had DE to start Benefactor for a while.
    And I biffed CHAMPION where CHESTNUT eventually resided.
    So a stiff challenge overall, and I was dogged by poor quality biffing.
    COD to BENEFACTOR.
    David

21. I remembered the collective name ‘ a parliament of owls’ , as in a ‘murder of crows’, etc.
    I do not like this metaphor as it seems to link government with wisdom as I think we can all see at the moment is very far from the case.

    1. In the 18th century, the owl was a symbol of solemn stupidity, not wisdom. Maybe that’s what they had in mind?

       1. Great answer.
          Thanks.

22. I love the fact that there are so many learned people from all walks of life on here. Thanks Templar for that insight. I confess I have no knowledge of the law at all really (though I’ve been a juror twice) and so I just assumed there was a building called Temple, roundabouts where the underground station was, where there was some kind of headquarters for lawyers. Anyway, I found this mostly okay until I got down to my last four on the right hand side. After many minutes head-scratching, I finally got WHOLE which led to TOWNSHIP, and then CHESTNUT (which I should have got earlier as there really aren’t that many horses to choose from) and LOI COUNTERPOINT. Stopped the watch on 27:17, so about 50% over target these days. COD to CLARINET. Thanks Asp and Curarist.

23. Managed exactly half, then with all the aids compiled over the last two years a further three, leaving nine beyond my modest means. So thank you, Curarist, for all the instruction; forgive me, I don’t understand either “surrounding” or “crappy university”? And how do “bowed” and/or “shot” mean anagram?

    1. “crappy university” is an attempted dig at an educational establishment situated in the Fens that Curarist was presumably not accepted to.

       1. I assume it’s the place immortalised by C.P. Snow.

       2. Certainly wasn’t. I am of the Other Place

          1. One guessed that (speaking as an MA, Cantab). But it is not your fault so I won’t hold it against you …

          2. So what’s crappy about the College of West Anglia in Wisbech (the capital of the fens)? You can’t mean Ely University as it is actually in Dublin, not the middle of the fens. GDBO.

    2. I’m guessing, Bowed=Bent (out of shape).
       if something is “Shot”, it’s broken.🙂

    3. Yes, as below, I’m terribly happy with those anagram indicators either!

       I’ll take Raffles’ explanation, but god it’s tenuous from the setter….

24. Trickier than average, but very enjoyable.
    LOI: TOWNSHIP
    COD: OWLET, which made me smile

    Thanks, and come back soon, Asp

25. DNF – defeated by the TOWNSHIP/WHOLE crossing. Even before throwing in the towel I had taken an age, struggling over the seemingly simple (with hindsight) anagrams of COMPENSATE and BENEFACTOR, not realising that the latter was an anagram at all for a long time. I don’t keep records but I have a feeling that I have always struggled with Asp’s offerings and it is quite possible that I have never finished one.

    FOI – 8ac PANACEA
    LOI – 9ac WHOLE after I had used an aid to reveal TOWNSHIP
    COD – 20ac OWLET but there were many others to like – CHESTNUT, COUNTERPOINT and BELITTLE to name a few

    Thanks to Asp and Curarist

26. Pretty tough stuff to end the week, with very little solved on both the across and down clues on first sweep. I was dodging around all over the place to finish this with TEMPLE and finally BENEFACTOR my last two in. I failed to spot the ‘to be shot’ as the anagram indicator, and was for ages stuck on the idea that it started DE. Thanks to Templar for his in depth description of the definition of TEMPLE. I had a nagging doubt about the accuracy of the definition in the clue, and knew Templar would put us right! In the end I managed to get there with all correct and parsed in 13.30, good enough given the difficulty involved.
    Total time for the week was 53.06, giving me a daily average of 10.37 a little over target

27. 10:35

    Found it tricky to get many footholds in this puzzle though the downs certainly helped and the LHS was filled in first. On the RHS where the long down at 6d did not have its starting letter checked, it was a bit of a jump to see COUNTERPOINT, but that proved to be key in finishing the job. Finally left with 15d which in my view, relied on some distinct knowledge of London (which I have, luckily – though I had to think about it for a minute or so) and which, consequently, may have foxed a few.

    Thanks Curarist and Asp

28. Very slow today. It was all going well until my last three: TOWNSHIP (PDM has = OWNS), WHOLE (needed that W) and LOI COUNTERPOINT (eventually solved from wordplay but didn’t really understand the definition – do now, thanks C). Yes, tough I thought, but I do like a challenge 😃 Thanks C and Asp.

29. Bags of misdirection and tricksiness in this super puzzle. It is Friday after all, and this is a good introduction to a 15×15. Some easier ones to give some checkers, and some harder clues.

    It was COUNTERPOINT, WHOLE, TOWNSHIP and TEMPLE that held me up. Thanks to Templar for the exposition – I was going to message my KC chum, but she’s probably busy, and I’d equally probably receive a large bill with some suitably vague description like “perusal of documents” on it.

    8:36

    1. 😂😂

30. Approximately 90 minutes, but I cracked this puzzle laden with very clever clues. I’m thrilled about this. Definitely time well spent!

31. Well above what I understand as a quickie, DNF by a country mile

32. A stonking 47 mins…however, I did finish. Asp, along with Cheeko, are becoming the trickiest setters in my opinion (assuming they’re not the same person). However, I did enjoy this and am convinced I would have got a quicker time if I hadn’t put “Chaste” for 4dn, making the NW corner unfathomable for a time. 16ac “Clarinet” and 11ac “Chestnut” were very good, along with 7dn “Sextet” and my COD 6dn “Counterpoint” which suggested, to myself at least, a slight musical theme.

    FOI – 3dn “Etch”
    LOI – 15dn “Temple”
    COD – 6dn “Counterpoint”

    Thanks as usual!

33. I think bowed must be the most feebly contrived anagram indicator of recent memory. And that’s up against some pretty stiff competition!

34. 13:05. Like quite a few others I tried GREAT, PEOPLE and DE-something before working everything out properly.

    1. Well done CO 👍

       Edit: PS Just seen this on my Youtube feed and thought you might like … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KywiWyPjrOg

       1. Cool, hits a lot of the movie’s high points- now I’m all pumped up to go out and surf – or rob a bank!

35. Seeing the setter’s name, I was expecting a struggle and Asp certainly didn’t ‘disappoint’. A slow start in the NW (Chaste didn’t help), but an even slower finish. Township eventually unlocked Whole and Counterpoint, but even then loi Benefactor took ages, all the time with my hat sniggering in the corner, after being ignored. A finish of sorts, but one to forget. Invariant

36. An enjoyable DNF.
    COD owlet.

37. I chewed through this in a challenging and entertaining (and isn’t that what we are here for!) 15:49. Loved the way PANACEA formed itself out of the mist in my brain. Most of the rest I had to talk myself through. Pretended I was live-streaming haha.

    Updated to add that my combination of ignorance and knowledge made TEMPLE easy. In 19th c. fiction it seems young men are always entering the legal profession and having chambers there or something? [Oh, now I’ve seen Templar’s exemplary explanation, thank you!]

    Many thanks Asp and Curarist!

38. I thoroughly enjoyed this QC and thought it was only averagely difficult with some lovely clues. I knew scathing but didn’t know there was a verb ‘to scathe’. I was pleased to realise that CLARINET was an anagram as was BENEFACTOR, which like others, I had assumed would begin DE. Once I had the initial O I remembered about parliaments of owls. I was amused to find a use of modern vocab in SEXTET. COD to TOWNSHIP with its smooth surface. I’m relieved that Curarist wasn’t insulting Slough as it has suffered enough from Betjeman; it was nearly called Upton-cum-Chalvey. Like others I put PEOPLE for 15d so DNF but I thought it was very enjoyable. Thanks both.

39. As a newbie, could someone please explain why “bowed” and “shot” are anagram indicators?

    “Evolving”, “form of” and “remix” I can see, “rotten” I can just about accept, but I do not understand the other two!

    Otherwise 14/22 by my count, which I’ll take two weeks in to attempting these.

    1. ‘Bowed’ out of shape, they say above. ‘Shot’ to pieces. Almost anything can be an anagram indicator!

40. DNF – BENEFACTOR, PORTION, TEMPLE unsolved. TOWNSHIP , CHESTNUT and COUNTERPOINT also took ages. Very difficult for a QC.

41. It seems that we were on the wavelength with this one being, at 10:36, well ahead of our par. I thought there were some creative clues here leading to a rather enjoyable solve. LOI COUNTERPOINT. COD OWLET. On the TEMPLE issue, could it not be said that The Temple is an office of a law society in the somewhat loose sense of a group of interacting people, all engaged in a common practice of the law, who for their work are co-located in ‘a room or set of rooms … in which … profesional duties are carried out’ per meaning 1a in my Collins? Tbh we never gave it too much thought at the time as it seemed clear enough. Thanks Curarist and Asp.

42. I thought this was an enjoyable if not particularly quick cryptic. I solved steadily but was held up with the RAMP/MONUMENTALLY crossing and my LOI BENEFACTOR. Perhaps the inclusion of two FACTORs in the grid put me off. I had no problem with TEMPLE and my COD goes to OWLET. 10:18

43. Hard work but rather enjoyable and I got there in the end with just the tiniest bit of help and several PDMs.
    COD: OWLET
    Thanks Asp and Curarist – your avatar always brightens my day.

44. DNF due to Monumentally and Owlet. But otherwise ok. Just assumed office to mean position/ role rather than building, so Temple was ok with me.

45. 12.01

    Tough for a QC, but enjoyable. Would have been quicker if T were nearer the start of the alphabet.

    Thanks Asp and Curarist.

46. I started this in Skipton just prior to the deadline for leaving my holiday cottage and had to pause it unfinished and restart when I got home. I was delayed by looking for a stringed instrument for CLARINET, COUNTERPOINT and my posited DE at the front of 22a. Eventually finished in 13:17, so could’ve been worse. I suspect my mind was distracted as I watched the clock approach the eviction hour! Thanks Asp and Curarist.

47. 32.30 I ill-wished myself yesterday and spent longer on this than the rest of the week put together. TEMPLE, BENEFACTOR, COUNTERPOINT, CHESTNUT, WHOLE and TOWNSHIP were the laggards. Thanks Curarist and Asp.

48. 19:43 here, with aids needed for BENEFACTOR (“ohhhh, it’s an anagram!”) and TOWNSHIP, where I was fixated on including IN for “trendy”.

    Thanks to Asp and Curarist.

49. 37:27

    Oh that was tough! The LHS flew in but ground to a halt in the NE and SE corners. Took ages to unravel BENEFACTOR but it was TOWNSHIP and LOI WHOLE that dragged me well beyond the half hour mark.

50. Did not finish
    Lack of aspiration?

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