Times Quick Cryptic No 2856 by Orpheus

Solving time: 6:09

A fairly smooth ride through this puzzle where there are perhaps a few unknown (e.g. 4d) or rarely-used words (e.g. 5d), however the crossers are generous, allowing for some educated guesswork where the answer is not familiar.

There are also plenty of IKEA-style clues – add this to that, remove that from this etc. I was surprised that there are just two anagrams – both for two of the longer words – only one hidden, and two homophones. I still found the whole journey very enjoyable.

How did you all get on?

Definitions are underlined in bold italics, {deletions and substitutions are in curly brackets} and [directions in square ones].

Across
1 Reflected sound needed by college choirs (4)
ECHO – Hidden [needed by] in college choirs
3 Charm we recalled, feeding female dog (7)
BEWITCHEW (we – reversed [recalled]) inserted into [feeding] BITCH (female dog)
8 Overtake one on river, blooming thing (7-6)
PASSION-FLOWERPASS (Overtake) I (one) ON, then FLOWER (river i.e. something that flows being a FLOW-ER)

Why is a PASSION-FLOWER named so? Its blossom, especially the flower of the purple passion fruit (Passiflora edulis) symbolises events in the last hours of the life of Jesus Christ: The corona represents the crown of thorns; the styles represent the nails used in the Crucifixion; the stamens represent the five wounds; and the five sepals and five petals represent ten of the Apostles – all but Judas, who betrayed Jesus, and Peter, who denied knowing Jesus three times at the time of His trial.

9 Feller’s tool unknown by a European (3)
AXEX (unknown) by A, then E (European)
10 Leather strap Republican removed from crowd (5)
THONGTHRONG (Crowd) with R (Republican) removed
12 Forceful, backing a lot in police department (7)
DYNAMIC – MANY (a lot) in CID (police department) all reversed [backing] gives D(YNAM)IC
14 Engineers negotiate withdrawal (7)
RETREATRE (Engineers i.e. abbreviation for Royal Engineers) TREAT (negotiate)

The last definition for TREAT in Collins online dictionary has “to discuss settlement; negotiate“. An example given elsewhere suggests the following usage: “propagandists claimed that he was treating with the enemy“.

16 Part of joint a music group knocked back (5)
TENON – NONET (music group) reversed [knocked back]

For thousands of years, the world’s woodworkers have used a mortise and tenon joint to connect two pieces of wood or other material, particularly those that connect at right angles.

17 A board game in the past (3)
AGOA GO (board game)

Invented in China more than 2,500 years ago and believed to be the oldest board game continuously played to the present day, GO is an abstract board game for two players in which the aim is to fence off more territory than the opponent.

20 Disobedient brat involved with union side (13)
INSUBORDINATE – Anagram [involved] of BRAT with UNION SIDE
21 She entertains great numbers outside quarters (7)
HOSTESSHOSTS (great numbers) outside E{ast} S{outh} (quarters)
22 Follow English magistrate in Venice once (4)
DOGEDOG (Follow) E (English)
Down
1 International trader’s former carrier (8)
EXPORTEREX (former) PORTER (carrier)
2 Meat and veg dish’s hot remains (4)
HASHH (hot) ASH (remains)
3 Forbidden woman entering base (6)
BANNEDANN (woman) inserted into [entering] BED (base)
4 Jazzman in central London with a big tree (12)
WELLINGTONIAELLINGTON (Jazzman e.g. Edward Kennedy “Duke” Ellington 1899-1974) inserted into [in] WI (i.e. W1 – central London postcode) with A

(I use e.g. with Duke Ellington being the most likely example. Less likely is Ray Ellington (1916-1985), singer, drummer and bandleader best known for his appearances on The Goon Show between 1951 and 1960, where The Ray Ellington Quartet provided the musical interludes between scenes.)

WELLINGTONIA is one of the names by which the giant sequoia or giant redwood (Sequoiadendron giganteum) is known. Native to the western slopes of the Sierra Nevada, giant sequoia specimens are the most massive trees on Earth.

The W1 postcode, also known London’s West End, comprising of Mayfair, Marylebone and Soho, is often thought of as central London because it is the tourist and clubbing centre, however it is actually slightly west of centre. Officially, London centres on Charing Cross Station in WC1.

A useful discussion on London postcodes can be found here: London Postcodes List, explanation and meaning

5 Urban dweller in Kent finally has staff (8)
TOWNSMAN – Last letter [finally] of {Ken}T OWNS (has) MAN (staff)
6 Group of beasts tried to be listened to (4)
HERD – Homophone [to be listened to] of HEARD (tried i.e. subjected to trial)

Not a whoop of gorillas or flange of baboons then 🙁

7 Unpleasant ride a beagle’s suffering (12)
DISAGREEABLE – Anagram [suffering] of RIDE A BEAGLES
11 Revealed son carrying mail for distant territories (8)
OUTPOSTSOUT (Revealed) S (son) with POST (mail) inserted [carrying]
13 Building material originally common on Greek island (8)
CONCRETE – First letter [originally] of C{ommon} ON CRETE (Greek island)
15 Sign a chap’s dropped from word book (6)
TAURUSTHESAURUS (word book) with HE’S (a chap’s) dropped
18 Spoken greeting in school? (4)
HIGH – Homophone [spoken] of HI (greeting)
19 Old man, old wall decoration (4)
DADO – DAD (Old man) O (old)

 

76 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic No 2856 by Orpheus”

  1. These blogs are getting more interesting than the puzzles! Excellent work, Mike, following Merlin’s stellar contribution yesterday. 7.35 for me, I got held up by the NHO WELLINGTONIA and the wordplay took a bit of working out. Otherwise reasonably straightforward, thanks to both.

    1. Wellingtonia was pretty much a write-in for me, as nearby we have Wellingtonia Avenue in Crowthorne, Berkshire, which is lined with around 100 magnificent specimens (planted in the mid-19th-century by a local landowner with plenty of imagination).
      Well worth a look on Google maps using street view.

  2. I biffed three of the long ones, 8ac, 20ac, & 7d, never parsed them. I assumed that WI was a postcode; the only one I know is, of course, EC. 5:38.

  3. 11:23. Oink gave us NARCISSUS yesterday and today Orpheus follows up with ECHO, the young miss who wanted to be his lover. Thanks for London postal code information, Mike, very interesting.

  4. 9 minutes. We seem to be on an easier run at the moment, but I can’t judge the level for less experienced solvers. Whilst doing this I identified WELLINGTONIA, TOWNSMAN and DADO as potential problems for some. I doubt that DADO has been in common usage for a century or more as a word in its own right, but ‘dado rails’ survive as a feature of older (eg Victorian or Edwardian) properties, a moulding round the wall of a room to protect it from damage by furniture pushed against it.

    1. Dado rails had a comeback in the 1990s, when people put them on with paint underneath, wallpaper above, along with sponged paint effects and stencilling, pelmets, swags and tails on curtains, etc etc- a very busy time in interior decor. Little palaces in every suburban street! On reflection, our houses must have looked very over-decorated, but infinitely more interesting than the ubiquitous tedious grey of today 😂

      1. Ah you have that grey over there too! I call it “flipper grey”, a flipper being someone who buys a run-down house, does a superficial makeover, and resells it.

      2. When I bought my house in 1995 it the lounge / dining room had the dado rail with wallpaper above, paint below. Around 2002 the wallpaper came off. The dado rail is still there!

    2. I’m a less experienced solver, and that was hard as nails. You’ve correctly identified three of the stinkers and can add TENON, DOGE and PASSION-FLOWER to the set, along with some unusual (for the QC) wordplay like “quarters” which I don’t understand. Something to do with points of the compass? Do compasses have quarters?

      No, this was horrible for less experienced solvers and I’m tempted to post my usual grumble but will save it for another occasion. (Edit: that said, I’ve now read the rest of the comments and seem to be in a minority, so perhaps it’s just as well I reserved my grumble for later).

      On the positive side I got very lucky with Doge, having watched a Youtube video in which they were mentioned while having lunch this afternoon.

      1. Try looking up ‘box the compass’ on Wiki, and you will see not only Quarters, but eighths, sixteenths and even thirty-seconds are possible. I don’t think I’ve seen anything beyond eighths (NE, SE etc) in a crossword and it’s difficult to imagine how SW by S, say, could be worked into a clue other than as part of an anagram.

  5. 15 mins in parallel with watching a conference presentation. Never heard of WELLINGTONIA but the wordplay was generous. I have no idea what a DADO is but from crosswords I know it is something decorative, but it seems a bit obscure for the quickie.

  6. Not sure how educated it was, but I certainly employed guesswork here. WELLINGTONIA was biffed from the big tree and never parsed, and ditto HOSTESS – so that’s what the quarters were doing in the clue. Rest all parsed in just over 10 minutes, with DADO my LOI; I’ve heard of dado rails but I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of or seen an actual dado.

    Many thanks Mike for the blog
    Cedric

  7. 8’24”.

    No one clue held me up for long but I paused and thought about most, in contrast to yesterday’s which had lots of write-ins.

    When solving 4d I mentally parsed “central London” not as W1 but as W1A… this subdivision of W1 is famous (?) for its connection to BBC Broadcasting House, hence the sitcom _W1A_ about the broadcaster. (I think I was wrong to parse it so as in that case the “with a” in the clue would be superfluous.)

  8. Dado was a write in for us along the way to a pretty quick 18.12 with LOI Wellingtonia taking 2 of them.

    Lots to like, and thanks for the blog Mike.

  9. No major hold ups but was surprised to find ‘wellington’ two letters short so they needed a bit of thought.
    Started with ECHO and finished with HIGH in 6.51.
    Thanks to Mike

  10. Struggled with this finishing all green in 14:15 but then struggling with life this morning after waiting 90 minutes in W1 for an Uber home in the wee hours following a second instalment of the interminable Christmas Party season. Notwithstanding the postcode reference had NHO WELLINGTONIA.

    I quite liked TAURUS.

    Cheers

    Horners

  11. Lovely puzzle, full of smooth surfaces. COD to PASSION-FLOWER (which also gets BOD, Blog entry Of the Day).

    All done in 07:24 for 1.4K and a Goodish Day. Many thanks Orpheus and Mike.

  12. Re: TREAT meaning negotiate, is this the same derivation of Treaty, i.e. the result of a bipartite (or tripartite or more) negotiation? (I just put it straight in, assuming it had to mean negotiate somehow).

    1. Spot on! From my online dictionary of etymology:

      treaty (n.) – late 14c trēte, “discussion, negotiation, agreement, contract, an accord,” from Anglo-French treté, Old French traitié “assembly, agreement, dealings,” from Latin tractatus “discussion, handling, management,” from tractare “to handle, manage”. The sense of “contract or league between two or more nations or sovereigns solemnly ratified by the supreme power of each” is attested by early 15c.

      treat (v.) – c. 1300 trēten, “negotiate, debate or discuss for the purpose of settling a dispute” late 14c. as “bargain, deal with” from Old French traitier “deal with, act toward; set forth” in speech or writing (12c.), from Latin tractare “manage, handle, deal with, conduct oneself (in a certain manner) toward,” literally “drag about, tug, haul, pull violently”, frequentative of trahere (past participle tractus) “to pull, draw”

  13. 4:28. Nice puzzle as ever from Orpheus. LOI TOWNSMAN. Nothing else added to my copy. Thank-you Orpheus and Mike for the interesting blog – I never knew that about PASSION-FLOWER.

  14. A couple of answers biffed correctly (BANNED, WELINGTONIA) enabling completion in 24 minutes – pretty average for me.

  15. That really was a quickie, pity I didn’t time myself. Luckily knew the tree, DOGE, and DADO. My military father disapproved of INSUBORDINATion.
    Also liked TAURUS, CONCRETE, THONG.
    Biffed OUTPOST and TOWNSMAN without much thought.
    Thanks for great blog, Mike.

  16. Enjoyable puzzle. 26 mins.
    Nothing too tricky, though I did try and fit WC1 into 5 down. The answer finally clicked (LOI).
    Blog was very helpful as I didn’t fully parse all the clues ( eg missed nonet).
    COD: passion flower. I have one or two common variety plants growing as self seeders in the garden. I enjoy eating the fruit in late summer when they turn bright orange.

    Thanks to Orpheus and Mike

  17. Newspaper didn’t arrive this morning, so tackled this on my tablet. Not a great experience: somewhat similar to Eric Morecambe, with the right letters but frequently in the wrong place. I was already familiar with Wellingtonia, and Treat didn’t seem too much of a stretch from treaty, so a fairly straightforward solve in 17:31, aka a comfortable sub-20. CoD to 8ac, Passion Flower, ably described by Mike. Invariant

  18. A tougher test than the last few days, at least for me, and I didn’t quite beat my target finishing in 10.53. I needed to write out the letters of the anagrams for two of the clues, and this slowed me up somewhat. I’ve never heard of the WELLINGTONIA, and it delayed me until I worked out the jazz musician, and this was my LOI.

  19. Two very enjoyable puzzles today. I had to pause over DADO, and DYNAMIC, but otherwise it was all fairly straightforward.
    Thanks to blogger and setter.

  20. Sort of finished it but only guessing LOI 19d DADO, NHO but what else can it be?
    OK, thank you, Mike – suppose I get a half pat on the back but still a bit perplexed. Must reach for the dictionary.

  21. 4d Wellingtonia biffed. I hadn’t a clue, DNK that name for the giant sequoia, and never thought of the “Duke” nor the postcode. Lucky really that nothing else looked even vaguely credible.
    Otherwise a fine puzzle and blog, thanks both.

  22. 12:54, train solve, done by Surbiton.

    WELLINGTONIA was a late one, as I thought the Jazz man might by Fats Waller, and the plant might be some kind of wallflower. I had the postcode as W1A as in the brilliant BBC parody sitcom. Tough clue, but guessable.

    LOI DADO, only knew from Dado rail, and was stuck on PA=old man with decoration a medal like CH, OM, MC etc.

    Pet peeve alert at 1 A with an initial E I thought it might be ETON (reflected NOTE)

    TAWSE was a possibility for Strap. Was not able to parse TOWNSMAN, didn’t see owns=has, so thanks Mike for that one. Good reading on postcodes, spent longer on that than on the puzzle!

    COD DYNAMIC

  23. Finished correctly in 55 minutes. Two in a row. Hooray !

    Took longer than it should. Some were easier than I thought so I spent too much time on them – a few were, I thought, very tricky. I had not heard of Wellingtonia and I am not a jazz fan. Very vaguely heard
    of Doge but I had thought it was an office of the church.
    Also, re “BANNED – ANN (woman) inserted into [entering] BED (base)” – am not sure that BED equates to BASE.
    And, “RETREAT – RE (Engineers i.e. abbreviation for Royal Engineers) TREAT (negotiate)”. I do not care what is in Collins I do not consider that treat means negotiate.

    1. Well you’re welcome consider whatever you like, Gordon, but all the usual dictionaries disagree with you as does the etymology. ‘Treat’ comes from the Latin “tractare” meaning to handle, manage, or deal with. It originally referred to the act of discussing or negotiating something and has since expanded to encompass various meanings, including entertaining someone, giving something as a gift, or administering medical care. Thinking of the word ‘treaty’ derived from the same source may help.

  24. A fairly straightforward solve in 14 minutes, fully parsed. The tree rang a faint bell once I’d seen Ellington.

    FOI – 1ac ECHO
    LOI – 4dn WELLINGTONIA
    COD – 8ac PASSION FLOWER.

    Thanks to Orpheus and Mike

  25. I was all over this until I got to my LOI WELLINGTONIA. Really wanted the answer to be WashINGTONIA. I have two large specimens in my garden in Mallorca. I thought I must have got PASSION FLOWER wrong and that there was a Jazzman called Ashington. Eventually the penny dropped. I also failed to parse AXE and convinced myself there was an error in the cluing. Thanks Mike for putting me right. My favourite collective is a coalition of cheetahs….a homophone for when the Tories and Lib Dems were in power. 6:50

  26. A very quick couple of solves – 5:09 yesterday and 6:09 today! I did them both online today on a touch screen as we have been away – hard to tell if they were easier or because writing slows things down – a bit of both perhaps.
    Anyway, Oink continues to be my favourite setter, so belated thanks to him, but I do prefer a glass of chilled white wine to pale ale 😅
    As for today, an enjoyable solve in a time I’d usually be very happy with, but after yesterday…..
    It’s not often I match a blogger so that’s a plus 😊 Penny’s rule will apply tomorrow, I’m sure!
    FOI Echo LOI Banned
    Thanks Orpheus and Mike – another cracking blog, following on from Merlin’s yesterday

  27. 17 mins…

    A few unknowns here: 4dn “Wellingtonia”, 16ac “Tenon” – but the wordplay was generous again. Other than debating whether 21ac was “Hostess” or “Hostels”, a fairly gentle solve from Orpheus I thought.

    FOI – 1ac “Echo”
    LOI – 5dn “Townsman”
    COD – 2dn “Hash” – purely for the memories of corned beef hash when I was a kid.

    Thanks as usual!

  28. 15:15 with no errors. I was surprised to find the Snitch at 86 (at the time of writing) as I thought it would be over 100, maybe that’s because LOI DOGE and WELLINGTONIA (NHO) took some time to work out, although once solved I thought both clues were generous with the wordplay. FOI – ECHO, COD – DADO. Thanks Orpheus and Mike.

  29. 14:30

    A technical DNF as, despite solving the puzzle I had an untyped blank square. I think that’s the apps fault, not mine so will claim success.

    All fairly straightforward especially once the long anagrams went in. Only hold ups OUTPOSTS and LOI DADO.

  30. 17:37, moving steadily until I stumbled over WELLINGTONIA (it’s a giant sequoia in my world) and DADO (had to take it on trust). Having the crossers –S-B-… when I encountered the clue for INSUBORDINATE was terribly distracting; of course I knew the answer couldn’t be disobedient, but I couldn’t drag my attention away for quite a while. I do enjoy a self-assembling clue like PASSIONFLOWER! Having grown these, it makes sense to me that someone long ago, staring at one in fascination, would think the deity must have meant something in particular by creating such a thing.

    Thanks to Orpheus and Mike (excellent blog)!

  31. 8:15. Very enjoyable puzzle – enough to get the brain ticking over nicely without having to stretch too much. Thank you both.

  32. 11:45 for us so a bit faster than average but not significantly so. Unlike for some, WELLINGTONIA was a write in with several checkers already in place, we also had DADO rails once in a former property. Unusually, I think this is the first time I’ve seen ‘river’ to clue ‘flower’. Thanks to Mike and Orpheus.

    1. Yes, the river=flower was a favourite moment for me today. So often used the other way around, if I was the setter that would have given me a big smile.

  33. 16:27 here. I’d NHO the tree, and didn’t help myself by thinking ‘central London’ would be ND. COD to TENON for the “oh, that sort of group” moment.

    Thanks to Orpheus and Mike.

  34. 24 mins but incorrect finish, as I had TownsmEn. Found it difficult but pleased with an almost correct finish. Thanks Mike and Orpheus

  35. 29 minutes.

    I thought I’d done well and then I come here and find that I’ve done badly. NHO TENON,DADO, WELLINGTONIA. Why do I struggle so much when most of you clearly find this a breeze? Quitch says this was easy!

    Sorry to those of you who have given me advice, but I just cannot derive any satisfaction from being so poor at this when I have devoted so many hours to trying to improve. Since beginning to attempt the big crossword, my performances here have steadily declined. How does that happen?

    1. Hello Gary

      There are many here (myself included) that focus a little too much on speed, and perhaps miss some of the enjoyment of solving the puzzle, bunging in the occasional answer without fully understanding or appreciating the wordplay. Puzzles of every sort are primarily about beating the setter, answering every clue correctly and understanding why – it doesn’t really matter about speed. Personally, I am a numbers man and remain in awe of those that regularly complete these puzzles in far less time than I am capable of. You are undoubtedly in the right place – the vast majority of people in the UK would not be able to complete these puzzles, so whatever you think, you ARE in the upper echelons. As many have said before, over time, you will see the same tricks used again and again by setters – seeing these and learning to use them to reach the solution is half the battle. Your tenacity in not allowing the setter to beat you is the other half. Keep going – we are all with you.

      1. Thanks Mike, much appreciated.

        I managed to solve the 15 x 15 this evening, so I am feeling a little more optimistic now. 😊

    2. Gary, Gary,…. You felt you’d done well, and only decided otherwise by coming here and comparing yourself with a very select group who post here, from doubtless thousands of solvers who don’t. That’s including me until now.
      You can enjoy solving, as shown by the first part of your comment.
      You then ruin it by wanting to be in the top say 2% when you are probably in the top 5% anyway. If you enjoy solving, just enjoy it. I do, and I can’t match your times.
      If you want to be better than you can realistically expect to be, go and do something at which you can be in the top 1%. And think how your complaining feels to the many of us who can’t achieve anything like your times. In case you hadn’t noticed, it’s not actually a competition. The SCC guys enjoy even if they take an hour. Learn from them.

        1. Earlier this year I asked how many visitors the site had each day. The answer was 3500 on average. On a very good day we have, perhaps, almost a hundred comments. You can do your own maths, but Dan’s comment is spot on. Invariant

  36. I did this after golf in grim weather and was feeling very tired.
    It took me a long time to get LOI WELLINGTONIA not knowing that name but I did think of redwoods.
    Otherwise not too bad.
    No time as I fell asleep half way through.
    Another great blog.
    David

  37. DNF again. I had all but WELLINGTONIA in seven minutes and retired after another seven. I noticed that Wellington fitted the checkers but Wellingtonia seemed unlikely and I failed to spot Ellington. Thanks Mike and Orpheus.

  38. 24:56, with much pain and suffering, though reading the comments I seem to be in a small minority! Very surprised, but I’m slightly under the weather so perhaps more than usually dense.

    Thank you for the blog!

  39. Found this a bit tougher than average and finished in 24:03 with the NHO (or perhaps forgotten) Wellingtonia. Not sure anyone will read this now, but my interesting fact about giant sequoias is that the UK actually has a climate that particularly suits them, and following widespread planting of them in the 19th century, there are far more of them here than in California. None of them are as large as they get to in the US, but that’s just because they haven’t had enough time yet.
    Thanks Mike and Orpheus.

    1. Read, noted and appreciated! I know they do grow happily in this country, I’ll try to hang around for long enough to see a really big one…

    2. I read it! There is a 50 year old Wellingtonia in an NT place where I volunteer – it’s pretty big, but clearly still has a long way to go. I have two cones from it – they are about 8 inches long and really impressive.

  40. 11:20 for the solve! Came to this at 9:30pm as was away since yesterday for a funeral – always good for perspective on what’s important in life. Apologies that I didn’t get to reply for all the compliments on yesterday’s speedy solve.

    I flew through quite a lot of it but hesitated on certain clues e.g. tried to put INSUBORDINATION, wasn’t entirely sure about DADO, had to write out DISAGREEABLE anagram, had to fully parse TAURUS and TOWNSMAN and then spent missed the sub10 due to NHO WELLINGTONIA but knew it wanted (Duke) Ellington but my postcodes aren’t up to scratch. I would have expected W1 to be in the west of London not the central part 🙄 Couldn’t parse HOSTESS as rarely, if ever, done a puzzle with quarters=directions.

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