Times Quick Cryptic No 1788 by Mara

73 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic No 1788 by Mara”

1. ….I really struggled. Dogmatism, bomber jacket, and delivered didn’t come easy, and I really struggled with sweeten. Even the simple anagram of marina took forever. Time: 12:50, putting me dead last on the leaderboard.
2. 30 minutes, ten over my target. I found most of the clues tricky, but there were just enough easy ones to keep me going.
   I was held up by initially putting in ‘saw’ for WAS, and spent too much time trying to juggle ‘marina’ into a bird. My last two were 19A and 12D, I finally got BOUND with an alphabet trawl (I couldn’t see the connection with ‘certain’) which gave me CLOBBER as I DNK ‘threads’ for clothing.
   After solving I went back to appreciate just how good the surfaces were, thank you Mara.

   Brian

   Edited at 2021-01-14 04:29 am (UTC)

   1. Is clobber just clothing? If clothing is threads then clobber is a bit more than that!!

      Edited at 2021-01-14 09:24 am (UTC)

      1. CLOBBER and THREADS are each ‘acceptable’ slang words / synonyms for clothing in the English idiom, so the dd works perfectly ok in my view.

         Edited at 2021-01-14 10:45 am (UTC)

3. I can’t remember anything causing a problem, but still I was slower than I’d hoped. 7:19.
4. I was racing through this one but as so often I met an obstruction just before the finishing line, the intersecting answers at 12ac and 19ac. I must have lost 3 minutes here before BOUND came to mind as ‘certain leap’, and CLOBBER followed almost immediately. 10 minutes, so within my target time but only just.

   Edited at 2021-01-14 05:59 am (UTC)

5. This ended up being my quickest of the week at 14m but I drew a complete blank on the first pass of acrosses to dip under my previous worst of just one from yesterday – can you lose form for solving? Really liked RATIONALE and AT LAST, two of my favourite clues of 2021 to date.
6. Toughie. (Past bedtime.)
7. How does dogmatism mean presumption?
8. SOED has dogmatic: Of philosophy or medicine: based on a priori assumptions rather than empirical evidence.

   Does that help?

   1. But it’s presumption not assumption!.
      1. I think the point is that “a priori assumptions” are presumptions, i.e. jumping to conclusions without any facts to back them up.
      2. That’s splitting hairs. Various meanings of ‘presume’ in multiple dictionaries include the word ‘assume’.

         Edited at 2021-01-14 09:18 am (UTC)

9. I found this fairly chewy in places, as I usually do with Mara’s puzzles. Too many hold ups to list them all but I spent a lot of time thinking of places where one might find employment adverts before the penny dropped with my COD OLD TESTAMENT. I also thought RATIONALE was very good and finished in a sluggish 14.30 with CLOBBER.
   Thanks to Roly
10. DNF posted after 20+ minutes, could not get RATIONALE where the five crossers didn’t help me figure the structure of the clue.

    Was probably my toughest start for ages, I dead-ended with the first 12 clues or so, before FOI RETURN.

    BAR-TENDER seems like a recent US import along with Police Officer, Fire Fighter, Letter Carrier and other non-gendered professions.

    COD OLD TESTAMENT. Nice misdirection for ‘Job’, with initial letter cunningly hidden.

    After my efforts at writing one simple clue yesterday, I have even more respect for puzzles like this with great surfaces but fair clues.

    1. Rationale is a chestnut, usually clued as reason to limit beer supply or something along those lines. This variant will not long delay those who have solved this clue many times before – which now includes you!
11. A solid 600 points according to the Times website. I do occasionally wish for at least 601!

    Finished eventually in 43 minutes but got very stuck on the last few. The crossover of 12D Clobber and 19A Bound held me for ages, not knowing clobber to mean clothing. And not helped by Old Testament failing to appear for a long long time! Nice clue though. The top right corner was also difficult I thought, with 7D Sweeten required to unlock the others. As is so often, that clue would have been easier if I had thought about it both ways but for a long time I tried to put honey inside nets!

    FOI 3D Vie
    LOI 6D Whack
    COD 16A Old Testament. Lovely misdirection!

    Many thanks for the blog and for the QC.

12. … I find that most of the comments I was going to make have already been aired at least once! So I shall agree with the general sentiment that this was quite a tough puzzle from Mara, echo Mendesest that it was particularly difficult to get started for some reason, join Bripriuk and Silverwaver1 in not knowing threads = clothing, and share the Anonymous doubt that dogmatism is a synonym for presumption.

    But once the clues finally started to come, the puzzle proved addressable enough and all completed in 14 minutes. Several excellent contenders for COD – I liked 10A Bomber Jacket (did we not have Donkey Jacket quite recently?) and 16A Old Testament, but in the end it has to be 23A Rationale.

    Many thanks to Roly for the blog
    Cedric

13. I started very well but hit the same obstructions as many posters above. BOMBER JACKET and OLD TESTAMENT (clever clue) took too long. I had to write out the anagrist for the latter (I had to use ‘notes’ on my ipad since I had no paper to hand). CLOBBER was not easy and my LOI, RATIONALE (nice clue) needed the crossers before it clicked. I liked SWEETEN and AT LAST. Just on the SCC cusp today at 20 mins. Thanks to Mara and Roly. John M.

    Edited at 2021-01-14 12:36 pm (UTC)

    1. Sorry, Old Blighter but this is not directed at you, but the following comment from yet another QAnon outsider
       You appear both ridiculously difficult and poisonous.

       The QC blog is presently suffering these invaders. IMHO comments should be restricted to signed-up members only.

       I also believe that the Poison Wyverns have far too much to say for their somewhat limited abilities. Today a list of the ten he did manage! And PW further notes that he once owned a green bomber jacket! Keds or Converse!?

       We need to raise the level somewhat.

       Edited at 2021-01-14 05:39 pm (UTC)

       1. I fail to understand, horryd.
          If your strange and rude comment is not directed at me, why does it follow my post directly?
          If it was a slip, it is always a simple matter to edit / copy / delete and then to paste the copied comment into a new entry before re-posting it in the correct position. To quote your own post: ‘We need to raise the level somewhat’. John

          Edited at 2021-01-14 09:24 pm (UTC)

       2. As moderator, I am going to have to ask you to be more moderate, horryd. Rude comments about other solvers are not required here.

          You have been fairly warned.

14. Glad I gave up on this one early. Just too
    Ridiculously difficult. And 20 across poisonous does not mean the same as venomous. Once you start down this route then anything can mean anything meaning that anyone like myself who is trying to solve these puzzles using logic had no chance.
    1. SOED
       Venomous: 1 Containing, consisting of, or accompanied by venom; poisonous, deadly or harmful because of this. ME.
       1. I really do not care about the SOED – poisonous is not the same as venomous. If you were to kill and eat a venomous snake (such as an asp) you would not be poisoned. Only if a venomous snake injected the venom into you – would you be poisoned and probably die.
          The asp is not poisonous but it is venomous. To have used venomous rather than poisonous
          in the clue would have given solvers a fair chance. This sums up why these cryptic puzzles are really not bothering with.

          1. Well please spare us all the trouble then and don’t bother with them.
          2. Iff yew doant cur abowt dickshunries, kroswerds av farr two menny baretrapps.

             Or, put another way, as you so obviously know more about the English language than does the SOED, you’ve missed your vacation and should have been a lexicographer. And I thought I was pedantic !

    2. I don’t normally comment on posts like this (especially when they are anonymous) but they are becoming more common (see assumption/presumption above). I think cryptic crosswords assume more than cold logic – a bit of lateral thinking is not just helpful but essential. Biffing can help, too.
       In this case, I got a couple of crossers, thought about ‘poisonous thing’ (without checking a dictionary on ‘poisonous’), snakes came to mind, and ASPHALT emerged. This fitted well with a roofing material, allowed me to see answers to other intersecting clues, and there are no alternative answers as far as I am concerned. So I wrote it in…… Simples. John.

       Edited at 2021-01-14 09:33 am (UTC)

    3. Of course you are right if that is how you choose to interpret the structure of cryptic crosswords. The quick crossword is an introduction to the more puzzling and tenuously clued main Times crossword. There is indeed logic and the direction is often obscure, but generally fathomable and when it is or isn’t, the blog here sheds light on the more challenging permutations of clue and answer. If QCC is not enjoyable and does not provide you with satisfaction in unravelling clues that play with your ability to look differently at what appears to be obvious or to be challenged by misdirection by the setter, then try something else, perhaps sudoku would be more to your taste.
15. Date: Thu, 14 Jan 21

    FOI: 14d MONTANA
    LOI: 10a BOMBER JACKET

    Aids Used: TftT

    Total Answered: 10/26 (16x TftT)

    Oof, I found this one to be rather tricky. I started off well, but quickly got stuck. Many of these clues I felt were close to the front of my mind, but I just could not grab a hold of them.

    6a I was trying to understand why “from the east” would indicate a reversal of letters. I am assuming it means read the letters from the “east” (i.e., the right hand side).

    16a OLD TESTAMENT. I didn’t get this one, but I loved this clue once I saw the answer here. I was barking up the wrong tree on this one.

    13a AIRMAN. Kicking myself. I spent a long time trying to think of a bird, and then I switched to an aircraft of some kind. Never thought of considering the pilot.

    So, a tricky DNF, but enjoyable.

    Clues I managed to answer myself: 9a, 10a, 12a, 20a, 3d, 11d, 14d, 15d, 18d, 21d

    1. From the east (across clues) or from the south (down clues) are standard reversal indicators.
16. I usually find Mara near impossible but was reassuringly on the same wavelength today. Lots of anagrams, which I enjoy.

    Except for (there’s usually an ‘except’) CENTRE- I was fixated on dollars – and WHACK , which I couldn’t work out at all.

    Thank you Mara and Roly.

    1. Whack, as in, “you pay me my whack and I’ll be off”. Still gets used occasionally. cf wack as in wacko jacko. Curious word.
    2. Often used as in “a fair whack” when demanding one’s share of the profits.
17. For me another rare success, finishing in 50 minutes. NW went in first. Clue of day has to be 16 across, i was thinking labour exchange and had to start fitting letters into holes before it clicked. Personally, i don’t see the connection between threads and clobber despite earlier comments. Thanks to Mara and to rolytoly. DavidS
    1. From Googling ‘slang dictionary’: threads = slang word for clothes
       1. Thanks, i googled that and learnt as you say threads is slang for clothes which is a little closer to clobber. And so, am I to deduce one of the purposes of the QC is to develop my slang vocabulary? DavidS
18. I usually find Mara a bit tricky but today rather less so. I was slow to start but, once I got into it, I was definitely cooking with gas.My finishing time was just under 19 minutes, all parsed, a time I was pleased with.

    I loved the clever misdirection of OLD TESTAMENT and I thought that DELIVERED and RATIONALE were smart too. One of my favourite sort of clue is the double definition and there were lots of good ones today – I chuckled at CLOBBER, and also liked GRAVE and BOUND.

    Like others, I hesitated over DOGMATISM = presumption but my bigger gripe was my LOI, that teeny tiny little word, PRO for paid worker. Hmmm.

    Anyway, doesn’t matter. It was still a good un.

    Thanks Roly and Mara

    Edited at 2021-01-14 10:08 am (UTC)

    1. I assumed PRO was referring to “paid workers” like professional footballers as opposed to amateurs who just do the work for fun. In the past there was an important distinction between amateur athletes and pros. If someone was seen to profit at all from their sport, be it by winning a prize, coaching or endorsing a product, let alone receiving a wage, they would be banned for life from competing in amateur competitions.
       1. Ah, yes, I see. I get it now. Thanks.
    2. a dirty mind is a perpetual feast
19. Excellent puzzle I thought, finishing just inside 14 minutes, along with many of the others that I consider to be in my ‘cohort’, I.e. regularly posting times similar to one another. I include Mendesest, Cedricstatherby, Oldblighter and others in that cohort, and today we showed a remarkable synchronicity in our times, so well done team! I loved the misdirection in OLD TESTAMENT. Unlike some others, I had no difficulty getting started, with DELIVERED, WAS and PATIENT all going straight in. Thanks Mara and Roly.
20. this puzzle, especially OLD TESTAMENT, BOMBER JACKET, CLOBBER, DOGMATISM (LOI).

    Definitely on the harder side – took me 7:57.

    Edited at 2021-01-14 11:16 am (UTC)

21. As a child from the 70’s I did own a bomber jacket (not the aircraft variety) – a slightly tight fitting, padded blue thing with bright red and yellow stripes across the chest. Very “swap shop” like and would probably look quite retro now.

    In terms of the crossword, I enjoyed this and finished in 23 mins, however I still think it was on the trickier side. I also wasn’t sure about “Dogmatism” for presumption – but, as is often the case, I just went with the anagram. I didn’t have an issue with 12dn “Clobber”.

    There were a couple of potential hiccups along the way – I nearly put “Present” in for 8ac until 2dn twigged, and after yesterday’s shenanigans around “Saws”, I was somewhat uneasy about 6ac. Even 6dn “Whack” caused some doubts, however the rest went in fairly steadily.

    FOI – 3dn “Vie”
    LOI – 6dn “Whack”
    COD – “Old Testament” – very clever

    Thanks as usual.

    1. I owned a bomber jacket too, as a kid. Mine was green.
22. Agree with Vinyl and Wyvern amongst others, tricky but fun. FOI was WAS and last was AT LAST (one of many excellent clues). I liked WHACK and CLOBBER- c’mon you English batsmen in Sri Lanka.
    COD to OLD TESTAMENT for sending me down the wrong road and requiring a full writing down of the anagram letters.
    Time 12:53.
    I managed to finish the 15×15 so it’s worth a look for the experienced QCer.
    David
23. Great feeling of achievement, so thanks all. Yes, tricky in parts but enjoyable.
    FOsI BOMBER JACKET, BARTENDER

    LOsI WHACK and WAS (shades of SAWS), SWEETEN

    Liked AT LAST, BOUND, GRAVE, DOPE, OLD TESTAMENT. Biffed CLOBBER.

    Some words do seem to recur in Crosswords like STYE, RAT, VIE, so that’s helpful. And snake is often ASP.

    Edited at 2021-01-14 11:57 am (UTC)

24. Very pleased to have finished this chewy puzzle. LOI OLD TESTAMENT despite having most of the letters for ages! I needed the patience of JOB to see the light!
25. I’ve struggled a bit this week and, after an initial blank with 1ac/d, thought this was going to be another disappointing effort. However I had more luck further down the grid, and the down clues themselves seemed a lot easier, although 6d and 7d were my last pair. In the end, if Bomber Jacket had come to mind straight away I might have sneaked a sub-20, but the absence of those two crossers in the NW left me toying with names like Alan and Adam for the missing boy, until the inevitable pdm. Crossed the line after 22mins, with CoD to Mara’s little joke at 16ac, Old Testament. Invariant
26. I thought I was all correct in 44 minutes after a 15+ minute alphabet trawl to solve 1d (DOPE) and 8a (PATIENT), which was made all the more difficult by incorrectly having LOW DOWN for 2d until I saw the light. I mentioned to Mrs Random (who finished in 21 minutes) that I felt like a dope for taking so long to get DOPE, but my frustration deepened when I saw that my CROWBAR for 12d was incorrect. My only excuse is that I have never come across ‘threads’ being used as a term for clothes, so CLOBBER was never on my radar.

    Since I started these QCs last Summer, I think I’ve learned quite a lot about the ins and outs of cryptic clues (different structures, abbreviations, tricks, etc.). All I need to do now then is to significantly improve my vocabulary, spelling and general knowledge. Shouldn’t be too difficult, surely.

    Many thanks to rolytoly and to Mara.

    1. The problem I find is remembering all the structures, abbreviations and tricks. The “Job” reference today was a classic – one which I have seen before.
27. I started with DOPE and finished with AT LAST. CLOBBER gave me pause for thought as I hadn’t come across threads/clothing, but it wasn’t much of a stretch. Really liked OLD TESTAMENT when the penny dropped. SWEETEN took a moment or two as well. 8:51. Thanks Mara and Roly.
28. Completed this before moving on to the 15×15. As I commented there, it seemed to me that some of the clues in each of today’s cryptic crosswords were on a par in terms of difficulty.

    Thank you, rolytoly and Mara.

29. Probably reasonably less than an hour in bits, but definitely more than 30 minutes since I spent an age and a half trying to get SWEETEN, my LOI. No problem with the slang and enjoyed the anagrams. Thanks Roly and Mara and all.
30. Paging Jack – is “put honey in” a Definition By Example for SWEETEN? I thought of what turned out to be the right answer straight away, but thought it too vague (because there are lots of other ways of sweetening something).

    Anyway. A clever and engaging puzzle, with lots to enjoy on the way through. Can’t believe it took me so long to get AIRMAN; it’s funny how when you think that the target for your anagram is a bird it throws you off other possibilities.

    FOI DOPE, LOI AT LAST, COD ooo lots to choose from but I’ll plump for RATIONALE because I am a simple creature, time 1.6K for a Decent Day.

    Many thanks roly and Mara.

    Templar

    1. Yes it is. Setters usually indicate them but there’s no hard and fast rule that they are obliged to as long as they don’t mind receiving criticism from those to whom it matters – including myself on occasion, but more often than not these days I be can’t bother myself about it. I guess for beginners it’s more important, and perhaps in QC’s setters should follow the conventions.

       Edited at 2021-01-14 01:38 pm (UTC)

       1. Thanks

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