Times Quick Cryptic No 1752 by Tracy

68 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic No 1752 by Tracy”

1. ….but the ‘if’ in 5 across gave me pause, thinking that it just might be health instead of wealth, a sort of reverse cryptic. It would have been a lot less ambiguous if the setter had said when wife replaces husband. Fortunately, this is the Quickie, and it’s not supposed to be tricky.

   I also hesitated a little over redeem – it’s deem as in a judge’s finding.

   The rest of it was quite easy for me, nothing I didn’t know or hadn’t seen.

2. I still don’t get the definition of WELLS FARGO. 6:15. (That’s 3 Verlaines.)
3. Didn’t Wells Fargo used to deliver things over long distances?
   1. To be fair, I thought they delivered packages, not people. Perhaps there’s something I’m missing, or perhaps the setter thought they used to transport people.
      1. From the Wells Fargo web site:

         “Along this route mail, passengers and Wells Fargo’s express rode the stages of the Pioneer Stage Line from California to Virginia City, Nevada. The Overland Mail Company, by now under Wells Fargo’s control, ran coaches from Virginia City to Salt Lake City, Utah. There, mail and passengers connected with Ben Holladay’s Overland Express running through Denver, Colorado, and eastward to the Mississippi.”

         So yes, they carried passengers as well as mail.

   2. Ah, yes, thanks; but then shouldn’t the underline be under just ‘us’?
      1. Hm, I guess the notation breaks down when there are indirect definitions. “just the job for” isn’t part of the wordplay, and it’s not quite a linking phrase either, so I don’t buy either:

         … just the job for us?

         or

         … [just the job for] us?

         Open to suggestions though!

         1. As an ad-hoc repair, I’ve put ‘us’ in boldface.
            1. I think your original interpretation of the definition was more appropriate. I describe such definitions as simply ‘back references’, making them a kind of halfway house between standard clues and a semi-&lits. I’ve seen Tracy employ this device before – take 22a in 1527 for example: Better run island, one in the Bay of Naples (5) [CAPRI].
               1. But in your example the substitution test holds for the whole phrase!
                  1. I don’t think the substitution test is necessarily relevant here. In both cases the definition only works by taking part of the wordplay into account, so to my mind that extends the definition into the wordplay. For this clue that’s ‘a long way to travel — just the job for us’, which would qualify as a Q&A type cryptic definition, no?

                     I understand the reluctance of bloggers to overlap definitions with wordplay, since it is generally considered bad practice to have words doing double duty in anything but &lit clues, but that is essentially what’s going on here, isn’t it?

                     1. I’m not sure if it’s a reluctance on my part. I just understand it differently. There are two issues here. Firstly, the two halves of a clue can reference each other via the surface reading. This happens often with clues like “One bird … for another”, where the definition is ‘another’, meaning ‘another bird’. So the meaning of the words is informed by the surface reading of the clue.

                        That’s part of what’s going on here: ‘just the job’ is meaningless on its own, but it refers to the job of transporting a writer (for example) a long distance.

                        The other aspect of what’s going on here is that a word can be clued not just by a synonym, but by a phrase which alludes to the answer. Even in US puzzles you often have something like “They make points for writers” for PENCIL SHARPENERS. Of course, PENCIL SHARPENERS is not substitutable for that whole phrase, only for ‘they’. But the whole phrase is the clue.

                        That’s what I see as going on here. The second clue is “just the job for us”, which is a phrase describing the answer, which is ‘us’. (As in the PENCIL SHARPENERS example.) This phrase derives its meaning from the surface reading of the clue. (As in the bird example.)

                        1. Hmm… whether the meaning of an otherwise ambiguous definition such as ‘… another’ is derived from the surface reading or wordplay is splitting hairs a bit I feel. The point is a vital piece of information is given earlier in clue, so I think my description of it as a ‘back reference’ still makes more sense.

                           And while I do see the logic of ‘us’ describing the answer here, I would say the omission of all the other information needed to arrive at it is somewhat confusing, especially for beginners.

4. So what does Wells Fargo have to do with “just the job for us”?
   1. I think if you imagine the speaker is a Wells Fargo person then thy would say transporting a writer a long way is “just the job for us”
      I got it from the crossers and was a bit dubious I must admit
5. All,

   Perhaps the “us” in “for us” should read “U.S.”

   At least that’s the way this American understood the clue after determining that “Wells Fargo” was the only possible correct solution.

   CCC

   1. I’m not sure I understand how that would make sense. Moving something long distances is just the job for Wells Fargo, at least back in the day. Kevin is right that ‘us’ = WELLS FARGO, but the ‘us’ is decorated with a descriptive phrase.

      Technically, there are two clues here: one involving wordplay; the other alluding to the definition with a phrase.

      1. This was remarkably easy for Tracy, but I have read all of this thread, and still don’t understand why Wells Fargo is “us”. If it was US I could accept it as a very poor clue, if it is a generic transporting people it is a terrible clue – why on earth should we think of an American company which I only know of as a 19th century stage coach or more recently a bank. Us means you and me, and the chances of me traveling long distances with Wells Fargo are probably lower than me throwing a box of Scrabble tiles in the air and them landing spelling it out. Either I am missing something or all you are doing is back construction.
         A noble attempt, but I am afraid doesn’t cut it for me.
         1. You may wish you see my explanation in an above thread. ‘Us’ doesn’t only mean ‘you and me’. If I’m talking to a friend, I might say, “we’re on our way to meet you”, meaning me and my wife and kids. So really we’re just talking about a plural subject, which might mean me and you but might be another group involving me.

            Wells Fargo seems like it should be known in the required sense because of its appearance in The Music Man, but perhaps not.

            1. Sorry, I don’t want to labour this, but your example still involves me in the group, and I am still vanishingly unlikely to travel WF! What is The Music Man, a play?
   2. ‘us’ is Wells Fargo; the job is to move the writer a long distance. The problem is what to do with ‘just the job for’; if that’s a problem.
      1. I revised the blog to try to do justice to the concerns involved.
6. Barely 6 minutes on this one, my fastest regular solving time achieved on 38 occasions. I’ve beaten it with 5-minute solves only 4 times out of 1753 – always bearing in mind that my times include all parsing unless otherwise stated.

   I’m surprised to see some of the American contingent querying WELLS FARGO which was an absolute write-in for me, but then I know about its origins and early history from ‘Tales of Wells Fargo’, a Western that was a staple of my TV diet 1957-1962 through some 200 episodes starring Dale Robertson as their Special Agent Jim Hardie.

   The important fact so far as the clue is concerned was that they ran stage-coaches that carried passengers, and knowing that, the clue makes perfect sense with ‘us’ as a definition that refers to what’s gone before.

   CCC’s suggestion wouldn’t work because if ‘us’ referred to the United States it would need to be capitalised. You can’t leave them out, only put them in.

   Edited at 2020-11-25 08:32 am (UTC)

   1. I remember watching it too.
   2. Jim Hardie was a “Special Investigator”
      1. You may well be right but plenty of diverse sources on the web refer to him as ‘Special Agent’ so I had no reason to query it.
      2. Actually, I just checked my DVD of the first episode of the first series (The Thin Rope) and in his voice-over scene introducing himself ‘Jim Hardie’s’ first words are that he is ‘a Special Agent, a sort of travelling detective working for Wells Fargo’. The description may have changed over the years or could have just been fluid, but ‘Special Agent’ was the original.
7. Not massive fun today. Not sure that I haven’t heard of EMILE ZOLA now the answer’s in but ‘Emile Loxa’ came pretty close to being my final answer and although I banged in WELLS FARGO that was on the basis that it fitted and that FARGO seemed to parse. I had no idea what they did but did consider the definition came first and that they are underwriters. Also could’t parse GALA but now I’ve seen the hints I realise that was just me being dim. 1a went straight in so I thought this might to be end of an indifferent run of form but I finished the first pass with only three other acrosses entered and so it continues. Better on the downs to finish all green in 18 thanks to getting lucky with biffs. Enjoyed RIGID and seeing both APLOMB and MUSKETEER emerge from unpromising anagrist.
   1. I thought it was fun today with some very clever clueing.
      Alan B
   2. I urge you to watch the excellent film An Officer and a Spy by Roman Polanski. Zola plays a pivotal role.
8. This one took me 1 second longer than yesterday, which shows my struggles and to add insult to injury it was a DNF due to putting TTA at 13d (despite proof reading it). My main issue was with the WELLS part of 16a where I had no idea what was going on (and still don’t). I must have heard of the name at some point in the past as I eventually bunged it in with no confidence as it had a very, very vague ring to it. LOI REDEEM also took a while. A day to forget.
   Thanks to Jeremy

   On edit, having reread the blog and Jack’s comment re. 16a a couple of times it’s starting to make a bit more sense – I had been working on the assumption that there was an author who went by the name of WELLS FARGO.

   Edited at 2020-11-25 08:35 am (UTC)

9. Another dance around the grid today. No problem with EMILE ZOLA (J’Accuse particularly topical with antisemitism and authoritarian state action at the moment) but took an age to parse the obvious GALA and HOST didn’t come easily. Didn’t think too much about WELLS FARGO, strangely romantic early stagecoach series and took the us to be US as it didn’t make much sense otherwise.
   COD. ALL THE SAME
   Thanks Jeremy and Tracy
10. … as I completed this nice puzzle in just under 9 minutes – and then I turn to the blog to find much more experienced solvers conducting a right post mortem! Sometimes it pays to have a simpler mind – I knew Wells the writer and Wells Fargo the travel company, and didn’t think too much further about the deeper subtleties of the clue.

    Several clues made me smile, and I note that unusually, no less than three end in O. COD to 9A Gala for its clever construction and smooth surface.

    Many thanks to Jeremy for the blog
    Cedric

11. A good QC, I thought with a good mix of write-ins and head scratchers. I just exceeded my 15 min target by 20 seconds so I’m getting closer to normality after some dreadful slogs this week. I jumped around the grid after completing the NW corner quickly and the anagrams helped to provide crossers (although APLOMB took a minute of mental gymnastics). EMILE ZOLA and WELLS FARGO dropped out as the grid filled and, like Cedric, I didn’t dwell on the subtleties of the latter. I liked GALA and GOLF but RIGID and REDEEM didn’t drop out easily for me. Thanks to Tracy and Jeremy. John M.
12. A good one today, but managing to put TOT for 13d didn’t help.

    COD 16a WELLS FARGO, now I’ve an earworm of Doris Day singing The Redwood Stage …

    And I enjoyed the detailed pulling apart of that clue even if I didn’t understand all of it.

    Thanks all.

    Diana

    1. But I shall be singing it too.
13. Another good one for me, in fact perhaps my bet so far. Not so much with regards to time (66:30), but in how many answers I managed to solve before I had to come here. I answered all but two myself. Another encouragement for me was that I only had to turn to my Chambers Crossword Dictionary three times, which is remarkable for me.

    FOI: GALA
    LOI: HOST

    My favourite clue was MUSKETEER because when I read the clue, I spotted the anagram indicator, and the requirement to insert the letter U from Universal.

    The two answers I had to come here to get were:

    7a – I knew I wouldn’t get this one having never heard of this writer.
    6d – GOLF. I was ready to give myself a good slapping for not getting this one. I even understood how the clue worked in that it was a down clue indicating I needed to think of a work for “to sell” and turn it around backwards. The word FLOG even popped into my mind, but when I turned it around in my head, I saw GLOF. What an idiot I am!

    On a side note, occasionally, when I go to leave a comment, I start typing in the comments box, and it disappears whilst I type.

14. Got Emile Zola and Wells Fargo quite quickly , but, like others, puzzled by the latter.
    Liked Red Herring, Omen, Single File, Iago, Rigid, Red Herring
    Looked up Realm

    FOI ALL THE SAME.

    Was slow to see parsing of GALA, COD

    Better than yesterday!
    Thanks for the glossary too.

    Edited at 2020-11-25 12:02 pm (UTC)

15. I was a minute over my target 10 and a little disappointed because the NW corner was completed in mere seconds…and then I ground to a halt in the NE. Moving on, I painfully constructed WELLS FARGO from checkers and wordplay FAR, GO and then WELLS but the definition is unknown to me….isn’t it a bank? I couldn’t parse REDEEM. I returned to the NE, cracked EMILE ZOLA, saw FLOG belatedly and finished off with LOI SIGNAL. Thanks Jeremy. I’m still not happy about the WELLS FARGO cluing.
    1. Well Fargo originated as a stagecoach company, carrying passengers, goods, and mail out West. They also provided financial services, which was logical since they transported a lot of gold and other valuables.
       1. The modern incarnation of the company could have been clued, which might have been fun. Real fraud, not fake fraud! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scandal
16. 22:00 Never really got going, with Emile Zola and Wells Fargo both causing trouble. I bank with Wells Fargo so only thought of them as a bank, and was looking for a writer for the full clue.

    Spent too long on LOI HOST.

    COD GALA

17. FOI, IRIS, LOI, REDEEM. No particular holdups. Knew WELLS FARGO from the cowboy movies. 7:08. Thanks Tracy and Jeremy.
18. Just made my 15 minute target again. No problems with WELLS FARGO – as with Jackkt, my childhood seemed to be full of WF stagecoaches in every sh#t-kicker I watched on TV or at the Saturday matinee, all with passengers in the back, parcels on the roof, and usually Slim Pickens riding as driver or shotgun up front. I read the clue as having a simple word-play up front (writer = WELLS, long way = FAR and to travel = GO), and a kind of self-referential cryptic semi-&lit to finish – ‘got a long way to travel? That’s just the job for us, we are Wells Fargo!’.

    IRIS FOI, GALA LOI as I was looking for something more complex. Thanks Jeremy and Tracy.

    1. I got WELLS FARGO by exactly the same route as you. (From context I deduce that a “sh#t-kicker” is a cowboy film, but I’ve never heard it called that before! Is that a common phrase?)

       1. You deduce correctly. Common enough where I grew up, can refer to film, comic or most of the novels of Louis L’Amour (other writers of the genre are available).
19. Curse of the LOI strikes again … the clock ticked on and on until it was past my target 10 as I stared and stared at _E_E_M … I always forget that “on” can simply = RE. I also think that “find” for DEEM is iffy – not in Collins or Chambers or Lexico, which all have “to judge, think or consider”.

    No problems with WELLS FARGO, though. Hey ho, there’s another one tomorrow but I’m having a bad week.

    FOI SEA SNAIL, LOI REDEEM, COD GALA, time 2K (which apparently is 6V!!) for a Bad Day.

    Thanks Jeremy and Tracy.

    Templar

20. You deduce correctly. Common enough where I grew up, can refer to film, comic or most of the novels of Louis L’Amour (other writers of the genre are available).
21. Flogging for selling was very familiar to me, maybe its a London south – east thing. Wells Fargo was easy enough but I think the last bit of the clue even if it is US is a bit odd. At risk of being pedantic when I was learning and then teaching Maths, the stock unknowns were ‘X’ and ‘Y’ partly because they tied in with graphical solutions (x and y lines). Beyond that ‘N’ tended to represent a variable number or quantity but ‘Z’ wouldn’t be used any more than any other letter in my opinion.
    Thanks though Tracy and Jeremy – I enjoyed this!
    1. There is a TV prog called Flog It where people flog/sell old stuff from their attics at auction. I thought it was normal slang usage.
22. After two successive days of crossword misery, my heart sank when I saw Tracy’s name. However somebody took pity on me because they fairly flew in today, enabling a finish in 13mins, which is probably my best Tracy time. It even included a short pause over the parsing of Wells Fargo and a slightly longer one over loi Redeem. Both seem(ed) a bit iffy, but they couldn’t really be anything else. CoD to 10ac, Single File, which produced a smile. My thanks to Jeremy for another helpful blog, and especially Tracy for a welcome dose of normality. Invariant
23. Completed in 30 mins but a technical “Dnf” as I didn’t know Emile Zola. I did, however, create the new author of Emile Loya which kind of worked if you substituted “y” for “z”. I got “Wells Fargo” but only because I couldn’t see what else it could be (I always thought it was an old bank and thought the “job” related to a robbery).

    The rest of it I enjoyed, with the majority all coming in rather steadily. But, was the word “festive” really needed for 9ac? A “gala” can be held at any time of the year, or is this just purely down to surface?

    FOI – 1ac “Iris”
    LOI – 16ac “Wells Fargo”
    COD – 10ac “Single File”

    Thanks as usual.

24. FOI ALL THE SAME. Made pretty good progress throughout.
    LOI REDEEM (as others I see) after RED HERRING.
    Another good puzzle I thought. COD to SINGLE FILE.
    Time was 10:32 but some of this was quite tricky. Helpful blog, thanks.
    David
25. I found this fairly straightforward. WELLS FARGO seemed clear enough to me, although I believe that today they are a financial services company/bank.
    PlayUpPompey
26. has gone soft. Time was I would struggle mightily. Today done and dusted in 5:53.

    LOI WELLS FARGO. I had the FARGO, but the writer took a while to come to mind. I also then shrugged a bit, as I had no idea what a bank had to do with a writer who had a long way to travel, but assumed that the financial institution was willing and able to finance said authorish perambulations. NHO of the stagecoaches, but filed away for future reference.

27. Another not completed but an interesting puzzle if a little on the hard side for a novice. Thanks for the blog. Do not begin to understand how to arrive at Wells Fargo from the clue and frankly it is a terrible clue for a QC.
28. Tricky in places, about the same standard as yesterday’s, I thought. Finished in 21 mins – slightly slower than my target with all parsed except WELLS FARGO. I could see the writer and the long way to travel but, like others, couldn’t (and still can’t) make anything of the last part of the clue. Other than that some nice clues and a satisfactory mixture of write-ins and head-scratchers.

    FOI – 1ac IRIS
    LOI – 15dn REDEEM
    COD – 10ac SINGLE FILE. Raised a chuckle once I had persuaded myself it couldn’t possibly be single malt!

29. Please someone put me out of my ignorance. How is HAD a “festive occasion”
    Thanks
30. Oops – the penny just dropped
31. Took us 23 minutes to solve the puzzle. Unlike most of you we took ages to spot Wells Fargo – but once we had it we really enjoyed it. Lots of other great clues – thanks Teazel.

    FOI: iris
    LOI: raider
    COD: digit

    Thanks for the blog Jeremy.

    1. What? There are 3 of you at it? 😉
32. A bit of relief after two tough days. Both Wells Fargo and Emil Zola caused no real problem, and all done in 18m which is good for us.
33. One could argue a semi &lit. However judging by today’s comments a two third &lit as clearly unknown. Knew Wells Fargo from dealing with US banks back in the 90s. Jogged home in 15 today so chuffed. Sometimes the putts just drop. Johnny
34. …. I’ve nothing to add to the WELLS FARGO discussion (see what I did there ?)

    FOI IRIS
    LOI FORGET
    COD SIGNAL
    TIME 3:09

35. Still don’t get the second definition of Wells Fargo (who did indeed travel over long distances). But « just the job for us »?
    1. I suggest you go back to the top of the comments – starting on the first page – and read the ones relating to that clue. It’s been dealt with over and over again
36. It’s taken me weeks to catch up and just when I thought I had it solved with the Saturday special completed on Sunday for a fresh week, there was a stinker on Monday. After so many years I seldom give up but plug away with aids as needed to complete each puzzle before resorting to the blog (shades of a discussion last week or the week before). But Monday had me abandoning the puzzle after just a handful o (correct) entries and seeking enlightenment here. Then Tuesday was hard work and I began to doubt myself altogether. Managed to finish that this evening and found today’s offering much easier, tho’ still tough in places.
    Re Wells Fargo – I don’t know how Tracy got themselves into having to write a clue for that one, but I think they did well with the first writer/long way to travel, and maybe then a flash on inspiration for the ‘job for us’ bit and stuck it in on the pious expectation we’d catch on. But few did. Perhaps the elaborate forensic work is slightly OTT? It’s a QC not a GCHQ problem. If the clue didn’t work so well, so be it. Tracy is very much one of the more excellent setters. Let it rest I say!
    Now I’ve got banned for errors on my login…this will have to post a day late!
37. COD 9A “legendary knight had forgotten festive occasion (4)”

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