Times Quick Cryptic 2770 by Hurley – may cause drowsiness …

Author   KittyPosted on Categories Quick Cryptic

… not the crossword, but (indirectly) the wordplay in 3d which could lead to TIREDNESS.  Anyway, hello, and welcome to another Monday!  I don’t have much to say here – it took a normal kind of time and I’ve no particular favourites – but have made comments by a few of the clues.  I also ponder the question: when is a double definition not a double definition?  (See 22a.)  All good fun, thanks Hurley!

Definitions are underlined in the clues below.  In the explanations, most quoted indicators are in italics, specified [deletions] are in square brackets, and I’ve capitalised and emboldened letters which appear in the ANSWER.  For clarity, I omit most link words and some juxtaposition indicators.

Across
1a Bullfighter miffed initially at bother, resistance (7)
MATADOR — The first letter of (… initially) Miffed + AT + ADO (bother) + R (resistance]
5a Card one used at Augusta? (4)
CLUB — Double definition.  The first is a playing card; the second refers to a famous golf course in Augusta, Georgia (fully the Augusta National Golf Club), which hosts the Masters Tournament
7a Grasp every so often there’s an opening (3)
GAP — Regular letters of (… every so often) GrAsP
8a Flag of usual kind (8)
STANDARD — Two definitions
10a Prevailing fashion in climbing place, we hear (5)
STYLE — Sounds like (… we hear) STILE (climbing place – step(s) built into a fence etc.)
11a Some concoct agonising contests here? (7)
OCTAGON — Part of (some) concOCT AGONising.  Perfectly solvable form the clue but I had to investigate: The Octagon is the arena in mixed martial arts.  Accordingly the whole clue also serves as an extended definition
13a Say aloud something memorised about internet location reportedly (6)
RECITE — RE (about) + CITE, which sounds like (… reportedly) SITE (internet location)
15a Spot note about hospital, become very angry (6)
SEETHE — SEE (spot) + TE (note) around (about) H (hospital)
17a Take care of article on regular basis in part of plant (7)
TENDRIL — TEND (take care of) + regular letters of (… on regular basis) aRtIcLe
18a South American welcome for Japanese dish (5)
SUSHI — S (south) + US (American) + HI (welcome)
20a Roundhead’s opponent, offhand (8)
CAVALIER — Double definition
22a Party’s place for research (3)
LAB — Two definitions more-or-less, but since LAB (Lab.) is properly an abbreviation for Labour (party), I’ve allocated it wordplay status.  I’ve done similarly in 5d and 21d but would not call you wrong if you think any or all these clues are double definitions, because it’s a very picky point
23a Money from Government not good — make violent speech (4)
RANT — [g]RANT (money from Government) without (not) G (good).
Violent seems just a bit strong here to me, although it’s justified, obliquely in Chambers but directly in Collins.  Feel free to debate – but please no ranting!
24a Clothing linked to particular period? Nonsense (7)
GARBAGE — GARB (clothing) by (linked to) AGE (particular period)
Down
1d Judge’s target aims for change (10)
MAGISTRATE — TARGET AIMS is to be anagrammed (for change)
2d Suggestions Yankee is a little intoxicated (5)
TIPSY — TIPS (suggestions) + Y (yankee, NATO alphabet)
3d One departing from majority line upset residents (9)
DISSENTER — An anagram of (upset) RESIDENTS.
When double-checking the anagram fodder for the blog I found the other anagram of the answer, leading to the warning in the title
4d Cause new start to season (6)
REASON — We change the first letter (from S to R) giving a new start to sEASON
5d Method of payment for fish (3)
COD — C.O.D. = Cash on Delivery (method of payment)
6d Honest, appearing in court? Correct (7)
UPRIGHT — UP (appearing in court) + RIGHT (correct)
9d Lane bin due for replacement? True, definitely (10)
UNDENIABLE — LANE BIN DUE anagrammed (for replacement)
12d One with funds role errs, a true shambles (9)
TREASURER — ERRS, A TRUE anagram (shambles)
14d Musical work in prison — so long (7)
CANTATA — CAN (prison) + TA–TA (so long, goodbye)
16d Means of travel — female not telling truth (6)
FLYING — F (female) + LYING (not telling truth)
19d Dance rehearsal, saucy in part (5)
SALSA — Hidden in (… in part) rehearSAL, SAucy
21d Suitable apartment in short (3)
APT — APT. (apartment), abbreviation (in short)

100 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic 2770 by Hurley – may cause drowsiness …”

  1. A nice gentle start to the week with a lightning 15.06 for us.

    A few wrong turns along the way and needed Kitty’s help to pass rant. Also prefer the parsing here of upright. We persuaded ourselves that the post holding up the net in tennis or badminton was also called the upright, making it a triple def (appearing in court)

    Liked Salsa.

    Thanks Hurley and Kitty

  2. Much ado about nothing to parse MATADOR but steadily filled in the grid without anything obscure to finish a touch over of my usual 20 minute exercise. The word is out that a daily croissant is harmful so in advance of the impending budget of penury I am switching to wholemeal toast in the SCC.
    Thanks Kitty and Hurley

  3. 7.48, no particular problems except the self-inflicted kind, like convincing myself that 9dn UNDENIABLE was going to be some variant of INDUBITABLE – which it wasn’t. FOI MATADOR, LOI CLUB where I overlooked the ‘playing card’ def for just about the entire solve. Thank you Hurley and Kitty.

  4. A nice gentle start to the week and would have ducked under 5 minutes if I’d be brave enough to forego a spell check.
    Started with MATADOR and finished with CLUB in 5.02.
    Thanks to Kitty

  5. 6½ minutes for a rapid Monday solve, all understood except the reference to an Octagon which was new to me – thank you for that info Kitty, and for the rest of the blog.
    Cedric

  6. 7 minutes, and after the last two long solves (which included a DNF) it’s nice to be back in sub-10 minute territory. I nearly forgot I didn’t know the OCTAGON reference but it didn’t delay me.

    I won’t claim to have always been consistent in my own blogs but if pressed to make a distinction between wordplay and a second definition I’d say it depends whether the second definition was something that might stand alone in a non-cryptic puzzle. On that basis:
    Method of payment (3) COD. As an established expression (pronounced C-O-D) I’d say this is definitely okay, and 5d is a DD.

    Apartment in short (3). Not a DD because that’s cryptic. In a non-cryptic puzzle I might expect to see
    Apartment (abbr) (3)

    Party (3) LAB. I’d count this as wordplay as a non-cryptic puzzle would be more likely to have
    Party (abbr) (3)

    I just realised that after producing 1000+ blogs I have never really thought about this before. Perhaps I shall be persuaded that it’s not correct or there are better tests, but it’s something I intend to be considering more carefully when writing blogs in the future. Thanks, Kitty, for raising the subject.

    1. I interpreted Octagon as the arena in Sheffield where the World Snooker Championships are held (amongst many other events).
      (The suspense during the Snooker has often been agonising!)

      1. It may have an octagonal arena (not sure about this as the TV only ever shows part of it) but I think it is usually called the Crucible – another very apt name as the pressure can be red hot.

      3. The Octagon is an hexagonal-shaped theatre in Bolton, not to be confused with the rectangular-shaped Crucible in Sheffield and the hexagonal-shaped Hexagon in Reading or the heptagonal-shaped theatre in the Royal Exchange, Manchester.

    2. Interesting perspectives, thanks Jackkt.

      I agree with you that to be considered a definition it should be something that might stand alone in a non-cryptic puzzle – but with a few qualifications. One (not relevant to this discussion) is that definitions in cryptics don’t have to be as narrowly defined (because the subsidiary indication adds the necessary precision) and another is of course that definitions can be cryptic.

      The other difference that springs to mind is that you often see in barred puzzles definitions with language or certain other indicators included. To look my most recently blogged EV for examples, RAFT is defined as “American crowd” (11a) and ORRA is “useless at Culloden” (28a). This doesn’t really happen in concise puzzles; admittedly it’s pretty rare in standard cryptics too, but not unknown.

      So I might accept “Apartment in short” as a definition – but only for “APT.”, not “APT”. That is, if the if the answer is an abbreviation, which would be indicated in the enumeration (or in the preamble, barred puzzle style: “one answer is an abbreviation”). But in that case “suitable” doesn’t properly define it and would have to be the subsidiary indication! So the answer is either an abbreviation or not and the definition has to match it accordingly.

      Similarly for LAB (not an abbreviation, despite deriving originally from one) / LAB. (abbreviation).

      I initially disagreed more strongly about COD (word) / COD (abbreviation) given that Chambers has the latter specifically as C.O.D. However I’ve checked in Collins and there it’s just COD so I’d enumerate both as (3). However the dictionaries still mark it as an abbreviation so …

      Now I remember why I don’t usually find the energy to go into these finer points in writing!

      1. Thanks, Kitty. Interesting. I hadn’t thought much further than the examples you quoted from today’s puzzles. I wouldn’t take punctuation such as C.O.D into account as it’s rarely used in clues and never (of course!) in grids.

        1. I expect you’re right about that. I was going to say we never see abbreviations at all as answers in regular puzzles but that’s not quite true as I’m sure we’ve had BBC or similar.

  7. Technically LAB is abbreviated for both Labour and laboratory. That makes it a DAD … double abbreviated definition !!

    Thought it was a really nicely pitched QC from Hurley – not a write-in but generous in the clueing which hopefully will help those newer to cryptics.

    OCTAGON seems a good example of including modern stuff while acknowledging it will be too modern for some by making it a hidden.

    As for me – 8min DNF having raced to put in CoNTATA; questioned it at the time but CAN and CON are close enough in my memory palace not to force me to think harder. Silly mistake but the musical word is only familiar to me through past QCs so its correct form isn’t yet lodged in.

    1. I think whether an abbreviation is used in everyday speech may be a factor. Lab for laboratory (or labrador) is said all the time, but not with reference to the Labour Party except perhaps in the days of the Lib / Lab pact. C.O.D. similarly as in my earlier comment.

      1. I agree about usage and as Cedric says below, other words graduate and I would have mentioned pram/peramubator.

        My comment was half said in jest, half with seriousness – as everybody loves a good Dad joke!

        1. On that assessment, Bus and Phone would also be classed as abbreviations. But I think all three have graduated to words in their own right now?

  8. Lovely friendly one – thank you, Hurley. LOI RANT which took a while to parse, very clever.
    NHO Augusta but it had to be.

  9. RANT – not a violent speech per se, but I’d assume Hurley was being generous by giving “speech” an adjective to get solvers away from thinking of a typical oration or presentation

  10. All the Down clues went in on the first pass, leaving just four clues unsolved. I would have been even quicker but for having to back out three examples of FFS (Fat Finger Syndrome).

    FOI MATADOR
    LOI GARBAGE
    COD RANT *
    TIME 3:44

    * Now, about my Heating Allowance….

  12. I paused briefly over OCTAGON, but just briefly; DNK, but I don’t think my ignorance is age-related; I just have no interest in martial arts. I was slow to see how TENDRIL worked. CAVALIER is a double definition, all right; and neither definition is cryptic. 4:48.

  13. I follow a lot of sports that involve people beating each other up.

    I came in under 10 minutes for this one!

    1. Well done Tina!

      I’m not at all interested in entertainments involving any more violence than a rap battle, but your comment has got me wondering about a new crossword-fight sport, cf. chess boxing. Maybe in a square (15×15 ft) arena with only one pen available, the aim being to each solve the puzzle but having to fight over the pen in order to write in the answers. Perhaps it could be held next to the park in which participating QCers are determining their Parkrun-solve times.

  14. A rare sub 10 coming in at 8:37. Sushi made me laugh.
    Got octagon from the name of the smaller stage/venue at Christ’s Hospital near Horsham, which I did a school project on in the 70’s.
    Thanks Kitty and Hurley

  15. Back to train solving, boo. And no coffee. Fortunately a friendly puzzle, which occupied me for 06:22 – 1.3K and a Respectable Day. I knew the OCTAGON but had to scratch my head in other places – TENDRIL, SEETHE and LOI STYLE.

    Many thanks Hurley and Kitty.

  16. A nice gentle start to the week. For me, a rare write-in of each clue in turn. Thanks Kitty for explaining OCTAGON- NHO but obvious hidden.

  17. Someone called just after I started and I forgot to press pause, and I lost about 4 mins so submitted without leaderboard.

    UNDENIABLE was LOI – having first removed my attempt to shoehorn INDUBITABLE into too small a space.

    Around 5 mins, but no precise time.

      1. It was a colleague hailing from Australia who interrupted my personal Kubla Khan.

        We have a place there, Porlock that is. The locals don’t seem habituated to poetus interruptus, though my only connection to Coleridge is walking parts of the eponymous footpath which wends its way gently from the Quantocks to Lynmouth.

  18. A steady solve. PDM LOI CLUB. Feel setter should have used St Andrews, she said stuffily.
    Liked STYLE, GARBAGE, CANTATA, among others.
    Thanks vm, Kitty.

  19. 3:42. No hold-ups with a first pass of the clues leaving me just about half a dozen to mop up. Like John above I mistook OCTAGON as a reference to where the snooker is played remembering it was a theatre but not that it was the Crucible. Actually I was thinking of the Hexagon theatre in Reading which used to host snooker many years ago. Interesting point about whether abbreviations in a double definition clue correspond to a second definition or a cryptic hint form of wordplay. I think I agree with you, Kitty. Thanks Hurley and Kitty.

  20. 9:21

    That was almost too easy. Less than half my target time with no real holdups. Thought the anagram for UNDENIABLE had a T somewhere which required a rethink and didn’t parse LOI SEETHE until after I’d stopped the clock.

  21. Fairly straightforward for a Hurley puzzle, where I am usually extended to my target time or thereabouts. Well inside target today at 6.59, nearly forty seconds of which were spent on my LOI STANDARD. COD COD? Not really, it just amused me to say it!
    I’ll award that instead to STANDARD as it took me a while to solve.

  22. 5:15

    Back from hols and pleased to start with a record.
    MATADOR to CAVALIER without pause save for a return to COD UNDENIABLE post checkers.

    Thanks Kitty and Hurley.

    PS Times2 has a great nina today.

    2. Congratulations on the record (and on beating the blogger, who was over a minute slower than you)!

      1. Thanks Kitty. It was lovely to meet you at the George; I do hope there will be more of those get together.

        1. Sorry, meant to reply yesterday but … things. It was great to meet you too. There will certainly be more George gatherings and I usually try to make them when they happen. I have the Championships pencilled in for 19 October. As I am not clever enough to complete that means more time at the pub, so that’s one kind of win!

  23. A gentle start to the week. I managed to duck under 5 minutes. I had just two clues that required a revisit REASON (couldn’t handle the simplicity of the clue) and UNDENIABLE (needed some checkers). From MATADOR to GARBAGE in 4:55

  24. Gambled and lost – with 4.53 on the clock I whacked in UNrEliable knowing it didn’t parse but not wanting to miss out on a once in a lifetime chance to go under 5. So not all green in 4.58.

  27. From MATADOR to DISSENTER in 5:54. Didn’t know that a martial arts arena was an OCTAGON, but it was UNDENIABLy the answer. Thanks Hurley and Kitty.

  28. A very rapid 6:18 finishing with undeniable. I liked the clue for treasurer.
    No time for TIREDNESS to become apparent.

  31. A gentle Hurley today- LOI TREASURER after 8 minutes.
    Like others DNK OCTAGON with that meaning and thought of The Crucible in Sheffield.
    Augusta is a mecca for golfers and the site of The Masters (as noted by Kitty), the next golf major in April 2025. The golf season has “finished” but, as with soccer, will start again soon.
    David

  32. Gentle and undemanding in a perfectly pleasant way. As this was a “damn I can’t sleep” solve, I was hoping for something gnarly and tiring. Sods Law.

  33. Finished correctly in 60 minutes. Hooray. Positive start to the week.

    Some may say this puzzle was easy. I would say it was doable.

  34. A pleasant 16min solve, with no real hold-ups, albeit I needed the checkers to see Upright. Strangely, I was another who (wrongly) thought that the snooker venue in Sheffield was the Octagon, but it was a hidden so no parsing problems. CoD to 14d, Cantata, for the smile, though Upright ran it close once solved. Invariant

    2. New solver and this was my first time out of the SCC so perhaps heartening rather than too easy. Thank you Hurley and Kitty!

  36. 4:54

    A gentle start to the week, only held up at the end by having to write out the letters for LOI 9d. I assumed that OCTAGON must be some sort of kickboxing arena – think I’ve seen it on TV briefly before selecting another channel…

    Thanks Kitty and Hurley

  37. 13 mins…

    Fairly straightforward for a Monday morning. Main hesitation was my LOI 4dn “Reason”.

    FOI – 1ac “Matador”
    LOI – 4dn “Reason”
    COD – 11ac “Octagon” – purely because I wasn’t aware of it.

    Thanks as usual!

  38. Home and off my phone, hurray, for a fast time by my standards of 12:50. That’s in spite of haring off after rash biff attempts DISSIDENT and INDUBITABLE. These were nice offerings from the back office but the vetting process was sorely lacking.

    Such a smooth puzzle, it’s a wonder how much stumbling around I did, and I sort of regret not waiting to be more awake.

    Thanks Hurley and Kitty, especially for elucidating the Octagon.

  39. An inordinate delay on the final clue or two happens so often with me that I have come to expect and almost (but not quite) expect it. Today’s culprit was the simple RANT, which held me up for 5-6 minutes at the end, thereby consigning me to the SCC when I would otherwise have recorded one of my fastest laps ever times. Exasperating and deflating. Maybe I should adopt the same approach as that taken by some our faster solvers and just give up after struggling unsuccessfully with a clue for a minute or so. Trouble is that if I did that I would rarely finish and, quite often, would hardly get started.

    Total time = 21 minutes

    Nothing particularly stood out for me and I was unsure of the parsing of some clues.
    No idea why brother = ADO.

    Thanks to Kitty and Hurley.

    2. Likewise, I was on track for a narrow PB until RANT breezeblocked me at the end. After a minute or so I just banged in my best guess and came here for the explanation.

  40. Agree with the comments above. Not sure I knew Augusta had a golf course. Would probably have recognised a UK one.
    Never time myself but abt 20 mins. It was 24 mins since the time on my phone when I paid for lunch and sat down to start the crossword.

  41. 5.40 A very gentle Monday puzzle. UNDENIABLE (where I also tried to fit in INDUBITABLE) and CANTATA were the only two that required a second look. OCTAGON went in with a shrug. Thanks Kitty and Hurley.

  43. I was held up by the answer : TENDRIL. I think because I hate this word.

    In the 60’s Norman Mailer said that the most beautiful word in the English language was
    ” Cellardoor”. And in 1963, the novelist C. S. Lewis obliquely confirmed this finding when he wrote: “I was astonished when someone first showed that by writing cellar door as Selladore, one produces an enchanting proper name.”

    I think that the worst word is tendril.

      1. I’m probably more on the side of like than dislike when it comes to Gordon’s worst word, but now I’m thinking of which words I might nominate for a Worstie. (Not going to put any here because ugh!) If we expand to short phrases like the two word cellar door, there is one that has been picked up in crossword blogs recently that I would nominate. Not going to say what it is, obviously, and please don’t speculate because I don’t want it on my blog … I shouldn’t have said anything!

  44. Almost smoked a sub 7 minute finish, but one typo did me in SUSHI. Seemed pretty straightforward.

  45. 5a. Kitty. I think the double def is the club that one swings (used) rather than the one that you can be a member of. Hence the ? As you can swing a club anywhere.
    Would have been a PB were it not for eating at the same time. Johnny

    1. Oh yes! That’s what I meant of course, but I completely failed to spot that’s not what I had actually said. Now corrected in the blog with the addition of “refers to” – thanks.

  46. Wow. A holiday in bviously makes a difference. Fastest solve ever at 8:00. Only my third ever under 10. Back to normal tomorrow I presume

  48. Very pleasant start to the week, all finished within our 30m target. No particular hold ups.

  49. Technical DNF.
    Had to look up Augusta to find it had a golf course. Otherwise not too tricky. Hadn’t heard of octagon as a site of mixed martial arts but that didn’t matter A satisfying steady 25 min.
    Thanks to setter and Kitty

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