Times Quick Cryptic 1831 by Orpheus

73 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic 1831 by Orpheus”

1. Thankfully I pulled BARNABY out of somewhere. I helpfully remembered MILLRACE from earlier puzzles.
2. …I got estrangement early on, and opened up a whole side. I didn’t even notice that Mill was the father, not the son, as I raced through.

   In the Austen-Dickens seminar, we left out Oliver Twist, Barnaby Rudge, and Nicholas Nickleby, concentrating on the later works. But at least I know the titles, and we did read all six novels of Jane Austen.

3. Picking the little-known James Mill strikes me as totally gratuitous on the setter’s part, especially for a QC. I did read ‘Barnaby Rudge’ once, can’t remember anything of it. 5:25.
   1. Yes, I completely agree about the setter’s choice of Mill. It just seems bizarre not to have picked James’s far more illustrious English son John Stuart.

      —AntsInPants

4. 9 minutes with few problems but I only just stopped myself writing the non-existent CASTILLE at 23, and whilst wondering whether CA = Chartered Accountant counted as a degree I spotted BA as the more obvious qualification.

   There are two Inspectors BARNABY on TV, both Chief Inspectors to be strictly accurate. The original was Tom Barnaby played by John Nettles 1997-2011 who was replaced by Tom’s cousin, John Barnaby played (if that’s the right word for it) by Neil Dudgeon who sleepwalks through the current proceedings. The programme – it’s called ‘Midsomer Murders’ – has long since ‘jumped the shark’, which is a shame as the early series adapted from books by Caroline Graham were really rather good..

   LOI was ALFALFA which I had problems remembering.

   Edited at 2021-03-16 05:01 am (UTC)

   1. Have to agree with you on Midsomer Murders — never the same when John Nettles left.
      1. A new series begins on ITV on Sunday evening. The setting is a bee farm, so doubtless death by stinging will feature. Apparently it makes mega bucks in exports — whether foreign viewers are dissuaded from visiting idyllic Middle England on realising that there have been 360 murders there is not recorded.
         1. The set ups were never really believable, but John Nettles always played it in a kind of semi-serious way. But now it’s turned in on itself and become self parody.

            But you’re right – it sells massively overseas – a factor which is at the forefront of most series that are now commissioned.

         2. They could well be frightened off from visiting Oxford as well – that seems like a similarly dangerous place!
         3. I think someone has already done death by bee, Agatha Christie, or was it Ruth Rendell? Or both?
            1. I’m not even sure that Midsomer haven’t done it before !
5. I have ‘bran’ for MEAL for a long time which made 1a harder still — needlessly adding ‘Scottish’ ruined a potentially good clue for me since JS Mill, Bertrand Russell and the Greeks are the only philosophers that come readily to mind. BARNABY RUDGE’s surname came up in yesterday’s Telegraph without which I’d have been in deep trouble. Ended up all green in 22m. I found it on the harder side and not that much fun I’m afraid.
   1. Ditto re bran. That left me with ‘Baldrick’ for the Scottish philosopher. Never having watched the program, I wasn’t sure if Baldrick was Scottish or not. Definitely a philosopher, from what I gather…
6. Struggled as I had biffed BOTHERED for 7 down which rendered 10ac impossible.

   With all the checkers in, I had John Stuart Mill in mind courtesy of Monty Python for 1ac, but of course he’s not Scottish. I’m not sure about the definition since a MILLRACE is usually the channel in which the water runs rather than the current itself

   Pb

   1. SOED has:

      mill race

      The current of water that drives a mill wheel; a channel in which water runs to a watermill.

      1. Agree I thought it was the narrow channel rather than the current of water. Either way, there must be a better definition of MILL than the philosopher.
         1. And yet another complaint about this clue, surely it is (4,4) or (4-4).
            1. Collins has millrace (or millrun) as (8)
7. Happy to throw in the towel at 27m with 1a unsolved, leading to blanks also for CRUMBY, RELENTLESSLY and MEAL, where I had BRAN for some time.

   1a was hard, as an R in a seven letter Scottish philosopher meaning current was a fair reading, as was I for ‘current’. For Scottish philosophers, Hulme came to mind, but did not know John Stuart Mill was Scottish, but we English never do.

   Didn’t like CRUMBY, not a real word.

   Cod ETCH

   Edited at 2021-03-16 07:40 am (UTC)

   1. CRUMBY

      SOED has it dating back as far as the mid 16th century.

   2. FYI: John Stuart Mill, being born in London, was most assuredly English. His father James — also a philosopher, but far less well known — was Scottish. Orpheus either made a mistake on John Stuart’s nationality or deliberately picked the obscure one of the two for some unfathomable reason.

      —AntsInPants

8. FOI: 5a
   LOI: 17a

   Time to Complete: DNF

   Clues Answered Correctly without aids: 8

   Clues Answered with Aids (3 lives): 11a, 17a, 8d

   Clues Unanswered: 13

   Wrong Answers: Nil

   Total Correctly Answered (incl. aids): 11/24

   Aids Used: Chambers, Google

   I have never managed to complete an Orpheus puzzle, and generally come nowhere near to doing so. Orpheus, in my opinion, is one of the worst QC setters. I find their puzzles just too hard for a QC. I do not mean that as a dig at the setter, just that I find them difficult and would rather they have stayed over on the 15×15.

   Early on I had to use my three lives to answer the three biggest clues, hoping it would give me a better chance. But it did me scant good.

   I did see ERNIE at 21a but did not enter it, as I was convinced the definition was bird of prey.

   It was obvious that I was not going to get anywhere near completing this puzzle and so I lost interest and gave up.

   No candy for me today. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better QC.

9. Defeated by the top left trio of MILLRACE, MEAL and CRUMBY. All to obscure for me, along with a few others like ALFALFA that I managed to guess. Not the best QC, by a long way.
   Thanks to Chris for the explanations.

   Brian

10. FOI 2D: LARVA
    LOI 1D: MEAL

    Some on the tough side, particularly MILLRACE.

    Thanks to chrisw91 and Orpheus.

11. Bit of a slog that I eventually gave up on.

    NHO BARNABY RUDGE, or BARNABY for that matter (since I don’t watch Midsomer Murders and find Dickens second only to Joyce as the most overrated author in history)
    NHO the Scottish philosopher James MILL.
    Only vaguely heard of ALFALFA

    Some lovely clues elsewhere though. Enjoyed CANAL, ASUNDER and LATELY.

    Two bad days in a row then. Still, I’m getting jabbed this afternoon and Cheltenham starts too so hopefully the week will improve from here.

    Edited at 2021-03-16 09:03 am (UTC)

12. I felt like I was wading through treacle with this one and only had AURAL and ETCH on my first run through the across clues. Philosophers, Dickens and (it turns out) TV detectives are among my blind spots so my GK was lacking as well. The bottom half of the grid proved easier and I worked my back up to finish with a drawn out alphabet crawl for MILLRACE, which I entered with fingers crossed. On the plus side CANAL made me chuckle and I also enjoyed ESTRANGEMENT and BASTILLE. Finished in 17.51.
    Thanks to Chris
13. DNF. Once I had RUDGE, BARNABY was a write in but no idea why. Tried every variety of grain and cereal including Oats, but could not see Meal and didn’t think of Oatmeal or Mealworms, and as said already, NHO Scottish Mill.
    A real toughie, unfortunately too cryptic to bring much joy today. At least I resisted the temptation to squash Jamaica into Havana.
    Thanks all.

    Edited at 2021-03-16 09:34 am (UTC)

14. Not a good day, I lost interest after a bit and looked up the answers.

    NHO Mill, don’t watch crime or thrillers on tv (in a minority I guess as the screens are overcrowded with them), but liked ALFALFA both as a clue and a word.

    Diana

15. Definitely a tougher than usual ‘Q’C from Orpheus. My LOsI were MILLRACE and CRUMBY and I thought the former was an awful clue, even though I remembered John Stuart Mill at a very late stage. Like Mendesest, I entered BRAN for 1d so that knackered the NW for me. I must say that it seems a better answer than MEAL to me (My wife has oat bran for breakfast with fruit every day). I wasn’t impressed by UNSOUND, either.
    Some good clues but a few horrors made this a forgettable QC for me and that isn’t just because it took me into the SCC. Thanks to chris. John M.
16. FOI LAMB. I then managed a couple of poor biffs, joining the BRAN group and also BOTHERED. But, crucially, I knew they were doubtful.
    I corrected both then got back to LOI 1a: MILLRACE went in without confidence so I was pleasantly surprised to finish all correct in 10:41.
    David
17. Firmly in the SCC at 23 minutes, with lots of sympathy for some of the comments above. Generally, I found the long answers difficult, but they all eventually fell. My biggest problems though were LTI, the two 1s. Like others I thought BRAN might be acceptable for 1d, and that made me think that maybe 1a might be BALDRICK, as I am unfamiliar with any Scottish philosophers. However, something held me back from entering them (I had also been trying to insert an I and an R into something Scottish at 1a). Eventually I saw RACE for run, my focus for the definition switched to the other end of each clue, and they both fell, but still with no idea who MILL was. Along the way I had also confidently entered BOTHERED, so fell into that trap too, until UNSOUND made it clear that I was wrong.

    Well done Orpheus, you beat me this morning. Thanks too to Chris for identifying the Scottish philosopher.

18. I enjoyed this overall so thanks all but I must admit 1a crosses a line of difficulty for me. A obscure clue using an obscure philosopher for an obscure answer in my opinion.
19. … as I needed spousal support for my LOI 11A Barnaby Rudge (NHO either B or R …).

    I found this tipped over the line from “challenging” to “unnecessarily obscure” in places. I think 1A Millrace sums it up for me. I was another who tried to fit either R (for run) or I (for current) into a 7-letter Scottish philosopher, only to find that the definition was Current (Orpheus choosing definitely the less common meaning of millrace here — I agree with Pb that the usual meaning is the channel not the waterflow), the philosopher was obscure beyond reason (JS Mill is well known but English, his father may be Scottish but is stretching the norm for a QC IMO), and the run implied race (but not all runs are races and not all races are runs, so is this fair without an indication that it is an example?). So we have only just started the puzzle, and we already have three strikes, and all against the same clue!

    And the puzzle continued in the same vein for me, with a MER also at 20A Alfalfa. Not that the clue was difficult to solve, but forage as a noun to me means food exclusively for animals, like hay, not a delicate salad ingredient for discerning vegetarians! I wouldn’t call carrots or apples forage, for example, despite the fact that I have fed countless of both to innumerable horses over the years.

    The fact that Kevin raised a red flag on one point, and Jack had to weigh in twice to defend the setter on two others, and all before 8.00 am UK time, rather says it all. Not a puzzle that I will remember with joy, and not one I notice too many others singing the praises of.

    Many thanks to Chris for the blog, definitely the highlight of the morning compared to the puzzle itself.
    Cedric

    1. From my days down on the farm I seem to remember that there is a forage crop called alfalfa, whether it’s the same stuff as they put in salads I don’t know.
20. My heart sank when I saw Orpheus’s name at the top of the puzzle, as, like Poison Wyvern, I always find his puzzles tricky. This was no exception, and what is always most annoying is when you work your way through to the last word and find it’s something so obscure you can’t be sure if you’re correct or not. This was the case with 1a. I’d got MEAL easily once I had the A in place and somehow came up with CRUMBY too, and so I figured the last part was RACE, but even with all that I was still none the wiser. I assumed I was looking for the name of a philosopher I hadn’t heard of, with the first part of his name a word for current. I eventually went for MILLRACE, but I couldn’t really parse it and was very much expecting it to be wrong. I’ve certainly never heard of the philosopher Mill, or his apparently more famous English son, but the word MILLRACE for ‘current’ is new to me too. Oh well, at least I guessed it correctly. A bit unusual to have no anagrams in a puzzle either, not even a partial one. Orpheus was clearly in a foul mood when he composed this, but thanks anyway, and to Chris for unravelling it. FOI LAMB, LOI MILLRACE, COD 20a (ALFALFA), time: 42:50
21. Thought I was done in twenty minutes. I solve on paper and usually then go to the blog, but I made a careless error last week with an answer that left me with a wrinkled brow, and turned out to be wrong. I had one of those today. I had bran at 1d unparsed, and no 1 ac, so filled in the grid on the computer which gave me pink squares when I checked the word, allowing a rethink to meal and then of course millrace was clarified. So twenty-five minutes in all. Happy to have solved eventually using the computer to clarify a brow-wrinkler. FOI aural, LOI millrace. Thoroughly enjoyed the puzzle. All good clues but I’ll single out Alfalfa for COD. Did not see the hidden entree, so that was biffed. Did not fully parse relentlessly, and needed the word emblem to get badgered, as bothered biffed and fit. Badgered was vital for (un)sound. Thanks, Chris, for the clarifications and blog, and Orpheus for the entertainment. GW.
22. Had to peek at the answer to 1a in order to get MEAL and RELENTLESSLY – knew answer was something-lessly but couldn’t get it. I do know what a MILLRACE is but NHO Mill.

    Biffed BARNABY RUDGE. Liked BASTILLE, ASUNDER, CANAL. FOI LARVA

    But many thanks, Chris.

23. I see Orpheus is the setter and steel myself for a challenge.

    1A have not heard of MILLRACE nor of Mr. Mill himself.

    I don’t know how one is meant to tackle clues such as 20A and 21D where one has to think of men’s names? Alf and Ernie?!

    Liked very much the cleverness of 17A TRANSPARENCY and 23A BASTILLE.

    Still unsure as to how the definition of 6D ‘ASUNDER’ works — what is the manner indicated below? A down clue?

    1. If something is torn asunder it is torn to pieces – that’s the definition. It’s made up from in the manner = ‘AS’, indicated below = ‘UNDER’.
       1. thank you!
24. 15:35. More on the wavelength than some, it seems, but it still felt slow and sticky. I knew Barnaby but must confess that I have watched Midsomer Murders and not read the Dickens. COD ALFALFA which is always a fun word and is enjoyably clued here
25. I also found this tricky. Started with AURAL and was delayed by BRAN at 1d for some time. Needed all the other crossers before MILLRACE came to mind. Had no idea there were 2 Mills and couldn’t have come up with their nationality in either case. BADGERED was LOI. 14:01 Thanks Orpheus and Chris.
26. Managed to do this tough puzzle with the aid of a couple of checkers and guesses. Found some clues somewhat convoluted and the length of the answers did not help either. Scottish MILL very obscure. Why not John Stuart Mill or something concerning a mill?
27. Not sure that being born in London to a Scottish father necessarily made JS Mill (later Rector of St Andrews) English.
    1. One would not want to say that Wikipedia was infallible, but the entry for JS Mill starts “John Stuart Mill (20 May 1806 – 7 May 1873) usually cited as J. S. Mill, was an English philosopher …”. As well as being born in London, he was also at some point the MP for the City and Westminster constituency, among other things.

       Of course the likelihood is that he would have thought of himself as neither English nor Scottish but British.

       1. He’s like many an immigrant’s child … a foot in both nations. He had a deep love of and connection with Scotland all his life. (Bit of trivia – Mill took the word “utilitarian” from a Scottish novel, “Annals of the Parish” by John Galt.)
28. On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill …

    Bit surprised by all the complaints about Mill (JS) being English; I’ve always thought of him as (at least predominantly) Scottish, on the basis that place of birth does not determine nationality.

    Tough puzzle and I had to tunnel my way through it. Suddenly the last half a dozen fell all in a rush so in the end a respectable enough time but I never felt in control of the solve! I enjoyed the challenge.

    FOI MEAL, LOI ASUNDER, COD ALFALFA, time 2K dead but I’m still scoring that as a Decent Day.

    Many thanks Orpheus and Chris.

    Templar

    Edited at 2021-03-16 12:12 pm (UTC)

29. I finished but it was a slow solve which became slower with my last two in 1d and 1a. Even when I solved MEAL I still couldn’t see MILLRACE…never heard of the philosopher MILL and MILLRACE for current was dragged from the depths.
    I wasn’t keen on CRUMBY and RELENTLESSLY was biffed. 14 mins so 5 mins over my new target!
30. …is the only prominent Scottish philosopher I’ve heard of. That, coupled with the fact that I’ve never heard of a millrace, scuppered me from the start. Mine was a very similar outcome to Merlin_55 above and took 5 hours! In mitigation, my efforts were punctuated by breakfast, a 20k cycle ride, coffee outside with a friend, a shower, listening to a Bob Dylan album and more coffee.
    Otherwise I think I might have given up altogether.
31. A deep sigh….

    I fear the planets aligned this morning to create a perfect storm of me being slow, difficult clueing and obscure answers.

    I did enjoy 18dn “Canal” though.

    Thanks as usual.

32. Hard graft today as the long clues resisted for some time, but got there eventually. 1D went in quite early, so I had a lead for 1A and the trusty Monty Python gave me a suitable philosopher to fit, so I didn’t bother pondering their nationality. Thought I wasn’t too bad on Dickens, but it didn’t click for a while, hindered rather than helped by reference to a detective I had barely heard of. Liked ASUNDER, ALFALFA was a headslap moment when I got it.
33. I thought this was beyond tricky, with a number of clues that seemed out of place in a QC. Unsound for lacking security, the unknown Alfalfa and a does-it-even-exist Crumby, all detracted from what would otherwise have been a hard but satisfying challenge. 35mins in total, with time lost over Millrace (couldn’t get maelstrom to fit, despite my creative spelling efforts), and correcting a hastily bifd Panama. CoD to 6d, Estrangement. Invariant
34. where I felt as I was completing it, there would be protestations of it being too hard.

    Normally I feel like this when I think the many of the clues are v good.

    I liked MILLRACE, never even entered my head whether Mill was Scottish or not, MILL is a philosopher, race is a run, and a MILLRACE is a current. It works, why worry about whether he’s Scottish?

    RELENTLESSLY was a cracker, as was BASTILLE and ESTRANGEMENT. HAVANA, ASUNDER, ENTREE was nicely hidden.

    I suppose CRUMBY would no more form part of my daily discourse than CRUMMY, but it seemed obvious enough.

    6:31.

    1. Because it was in the clue! Ironically if Orpheus had left out Scottish and just said philosopher the controversy would have been removed.
       1. You are quite right of course, but it didn’t cause me any delay or concern thinking about whether said philosopher was Scottish or not (I actually had no idea!), once I had got MILLRACE as the answer.
35. ….but I had no gripes over the clueing. Ted Dexter, the England cricket captain, was born in Milan, but was undoubtedly English. The location of one’s birth is less important than one’s heritage. I’ve always considered John Stuart Mill to be a Scot.

    FOI MEAL
    LOI ALFALFA
    COD BARNABY RUDGE
    TIME 4:54

    1. Most of us think of Mill as English, but it hardly matters; the point here is that, as I said, adding ‘Scottish’ to the clue when just ‘philosopher’ would do was a gratuitous complication. At least in a QC, I wouldn’t expect ‘fat philosopher’ for HUME, or ‘gay philosopher’ for WITTGENSTEIN.
       1. I can’t disagree Kevin.
          1. Ironically, I suspect that it was Orpheus trying to be helpful by narrowing the field …

36. DNF for me today as I could not get Millrace even with all the checkers. Boo. Although I had Relentlessly I didn’t enter it as I couldn’t parse it – definitely convoluted as Chris says.

    A TBE for me today (Tricky But Enjoyable).

37. … comes the muck cart. Yesterday’s almost unheard of excursion out of the SCC (18 minutes) was followed today by a much more typical DNF – 3 clues wrong/unsolved in 64 minutes.

    I was beaten by MILLRACE, even though I got RACE for RUN, I had heard of the Scottish philosopher (although only from Monty Python’s Bruce’s Song – “… John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, on half a pint of shandy was particularly ill …”), and I knew that a MILLRACE is the channel of fast-flowing water that turns a water wheel. Part of the problem, I think, was that I had BRAN instead of MEAL, which I would suggest is an alternative correct solution to 1d. An ambiguous and not very cryptic clue, in my humble opinion.

    I also came up with PANAMA and BANANA for 16d, but never thought of HAVANA. TRAFFIC and ALFALFA were solved very late on, and only after a certain amount of of despair.

    Well done to everyone who solved this puzzle today, and thanks to Orpheus and chrisw91.

38. 26 minutes, so a challenge today, with a correspondingly strong sense of achievement on completion. Thank-you.
39. Well, that one got us thinking. A few write ins but mainly it was hard work. NHO of Mr Mills – I wonder how many people ever have? On the other hand, there were some lovely clues which we really appreciated. We finished in 21 minutes.

    FOI: larva
    LOI: millrace
    COD: take your pick – we liked Bastille, canal and crumby

    Thanks to Orpheus and Chris.

40. I assumed he meant JS Mill rather than his little known father. I read Philosophy at Edinburgh and even there he was barely mentioned!

41. I’m another one who pencilled in BRAN for 1d which slowed down the NW considerably. I did think that several of these clues were edging towards 15×15 territory but worked my way through them steadily until I came unstuck with three to go. 10 minutes for most of the puzzle, 3 minutes for the last three – and they were the same ones as everyone else: MILLRACE, MEAL and RELENTLESSLY! The ‘weird blokes’ made me smile (although they might not in real life!) and I put a tick next to 7d but nothing really stood out as a COD.

    FOI Lamb
    LOI Meal
    COD (or as near as dammit) Badgered

    Thanks Orpheus and Chris

42. Definitely tricky. I didn’t get the two long down clues until I was well through the puzzle (and realised on reading the blog that I hadn’t completely parsed them.) Barnaby Rudge jumped out for me though I knew nothing about him. (Can one really use words like halfwit nowadays?) I half remembered erne from previous crosswords and had to look it up to check. The ‘perhaps’ in 1d, like a question mark, made me think ‘breakfast’ was an example giving me meal without a problem. But like everyone else I got stuck on 1a. I thought it was some philosopher McL… or Malcolm or some such Scottish name possibly with i or r. DNF. My app gave me millrace but I had given up by then.
    FOI aural
    LOI (before giving up) entree
    COD etch
    Thanks to Orpheus for a challenge and Chris for the explanations.
    Blue Stocking
43. …of his own free will
    On half a pint of shandy
    Was particularly ill

    Well according to Monty Python anyhow.
    Johnny

44. I’m always indebted to monty python when there are philosophers involved. In this case John Stuart mill of his own free will on half a pint of cider was particularly ill.

    Found some of this tricky though I knew barmaby rudge.

    11:23
    Thanks Chris and orpheus

45. And I have said that before.

    So I thought that I would really really try to complete this.

    I ticked 12 clues that I thought were ok — across 5, 9, 13, 17 just, 22, 23, down 1, 2, 12, 16, 18, 19.

    Then I ticked the following as tricky but ok with checkers 10a, 15a, 6d, 7d, 14d

    I had the following as unpleasant 11a, (ok maybe only me NHO Barnaby = TV Inspector), 20a (my general knowledge of foraging lacking), 21a yuk, 3d, 4d, 8d. OK some are clever in construction but also difficult.

    But I got them all after 40 minutes.
    So I suppose up to now I begrudgingly found it just doable.

    I then had just 1a to get — which after a further 10 minutes I gave up on. Even with all the checkers. This gets a TGR from me — yes a Triple Golden Raspberry — an absolute stinker of a clue.

    DNF

    So despite my best endeavours I have no real reason to change my view regarding Orpheus.

    I still want to see more of this setters crosswords to see just how ‘bad’ they can get.

    Thanks all
    John George

    Edited at 2021-03-16 06:32 pm (UTC)

    1. Wow. A GR is a biggie – this is a first as a TGR. The majority of posters (including myself) struggled with this one.
46. I’m in the’ too hard’ camp. No idea about 1ac but was convinced that bran was correct for 1dn. Biffed 3dn from the checkers, used aids for a couple of others. Too tough to be enjoyable, I’m afraid.
47. Dnf despite getting Rudge
    Hard but there you go
    No challenge no gain

48. I usually manage to finish the QC — or get to within one or two in an hour.
    But on this I managed 9 in and hour and half or more.
    Ridiculously hard for QC — I still don’t understand MILLRACE — thought it might involve AC and R…
    Note to self — don’t waste another minute on an Orpheus puzzle
    Nick

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