Times 28012 – waltz in four

Time taken: 16:08. I’m a little stumped on some wordplay, and I am a little worse for wear, having been out to an outdoor trivia night earlier, but I think this is tricky. In the early times, some of the folks I’m usually close to in time are way way way ahead of me, so I’m not sure what I’m missing.

It is late on the US east coast as a I write this, so if you have a question, check the comments first, and I’ll check in with a postscript early in the afternoon UK time.

Postscript: It appears the greatest fuss is over obesity for EMBONPOINT.  I put it in without thinking much, as the last time it appeared in the Times cryptic was also one I blogged (27760, last September), where the direct definition was podginess. The Times uses Collins dictionary as the direct reference for the daily, which has “plumpness or stoutness, corpulence, excessive plumpness” as the noun definitions. I like that the clue has “something like” before obesity, maybe alluding to embonpoint being a more flattering term for a condition for someone of my frame.

Away we go…

Across
1 Lassie clutches painter, shedding a tear (6)
WRENCH – WENCH(lassie) containing RA(painter) minus A
4 Copper cordoning off large featureless entertainment area (8)
CLUBLAND – CU(copper) containing L(large) then BLAND(featureless)
10 Rollick and roll around island (7)
ROISTER – ROSTER(roll) surrounding I(Island)
11 Corrective treatment in case of arson cheers police (7)
ANTACID – exterior letters of ArsoN, then TA(cheers), CID(police)
12 Attempt perhaps to streamline assembly (4)
DIET – double definition, the second referring to a parliament. My last in
13 Small wheeled vehicle: judge speed of runs? (6,4)
STRIKE RATE – S(small), TRIKE(wheeled vehicle), RATE(judge). Cricketing term
15 Sailor slammed Bleriot’s substandard work? (9)
POTBOILER – PO(Petty Officer, salior), then an anagram of BLERIOT
16 Back muscles hampering mum’s dance (5)
SAMBA – reversal of ABS(muscles) containing MA(mum)
18 A year in decline until now (2,3)
AS YET – A, then Y(year) inside SET(decline, sink)
19 Gutsy” mariner departs with very little, scratching head (9)
ABDOMINAL – AB(mariner), D(departs) and NOMINAL(very little) missing the first letter
21 Something like obesity forcing MB into open (10)
EMBONPOINT – anagram of MB,INTO,OPEN
23 Heart of Polish politician yielding (4)
LIMP – middle letters of poLIsh, then MP(politician)
26 Rhetoric from a right-winger on “men” (7)
ORATORY – A, TORY(right-winger) after OR(men)
27 Pole, currently Liberal Member of Parliament? (4,3)
BARN OWL – BAR(pole), NOW(currently), L(liberal) – reference to a collective noun of owls being parliament
28 Lens measures tail of rat in various periods (8)
DIOPTRES – last letter of raT inside an anagram of PERIODS
29 Last words from unclad ladies you kiss (6)
ADIEUX – middle letters of lADIEs, then U(you), X(kiss)
Down
1 Sent message with papers: note enclosed (5)
WIRED – W(with), ID(papers) containing RE(musical note)
2 Cathedral housing this writer’s books in particular (9)
EMINENTLY – ELY(cathedral) cotaining MINE(this writer’s), NT(books)
3 Censor’s pet duck? (4)
CATO –  CAT(pet), O(duck)
5 Greener pasture close to edge, tree-covered (7)
LEAFIER – LEA(pasture) then the last letter of edgE inside a FIR tree
6 Irritating pong around different things modiste cleared out (10)
BOTHERSOME – BO(body odour, pong), surrounding OTHER(different) then the exterior letters of ModistE
7 Bow accountant raised capital abroad (5)
ACCRA – ARC(bow) and CA(accountant) all reversed
8 Game everyone supports to avoid British (9)
DODGEBALL – ALL(everyone) after DODGE(to avoid), B(British)
9 Harsh routine in workplace set up (6)
BRUTAL – RUT(routine) inside LAB(workplace) reversed. I happen to work in a lab, so this was a write-in
14 Discarding wellie, at home with foot problem? (7,3)
BOOTING OUT – BOOT(wellie), IN(at home) and GOUT(foot problem)
15 Orbiter‘s pilot and guide ultimately crashed (9)
PLANETOID – anagram of PILOT,AND and the last letter of guidE
17 Maiden opposing key monster in myth (9)
MANTICORE – M(maiden), ANTI(opposing), CORE(key)
19 Helper in society located moving north (7)
ACOLYTE – hidden reversed in sociETY LOCAted
20 Pest you’ll find on this flower (6)
DANUBE – I had to look this up after putting it in from the second definition. I think Pest is referring to BUDAPEST which is on the Danube
22 First couple of breakfast eggs served up well done (5)
BRAVO – first two letters of BReakfast, then OVA(eggs) reversed
24 While talking, gathers garden flowers (5)
PHLOX – sounds like FLOCKS(gathers)
25 Dry run during service (4)
ARID – R(run) inside AID(service)

74 comments on “Times 28012 – waltz in four”

  1. That should have been 20-21′, but I wasted about 10 on 19d, trying to think of a word A_O_Y_R. Double-checked the acrosses: had to be ABDOMINAL, EMBONPOINT, ORATORY, DIOPTERS. Finally–finally–simultaneously saw ACOLYTE, realized the spelling problem, and then saw how ACOLYTE worked. Very irritated. I biffed DANUBE, but twigged later; Buda and Pest were separate cities, unified in the 19th century; apparently Hungarians colloquially refer to Budapest as ‘Pest’.
  2. Apparently a good time on a harder puzzle. I can’t say; I’m running on fumes here. Really liked the sneaky ‘Pest’ clue.

    What wordplay stumped you?

    1. oh it was DANUBE that I had no clue about when I started writing up the blog and had to pay a visit to Herr Google for enlightenment.
      1. Ah yes that one was okay with me because when I lived in Budapest for a bit at the turn of the century my first apartment was on the Pest side. Definitely more happening. Then I lived in Buda next to Marcello’s, one of the finest pizza places I’ve ever eaten at.
        1. Oh dear, I feel my age now, as ‘turn of the century’ to me only means one thing – 1900.
          1. So it did for me as well, but I’m trying to shove myself into the 21st century now that we’re a fifth of the way through it.
  3. A slow start, with only a few across entries on the first pass (including the erroneous SNOW OWL which I knew couldn’t be right)…then it fell into place.

    I had a very enjoyable stay in Budapest in the mid-80s, having to rely on some phrasebook vocab before my host turned up a day later than expected. A beer was about 3p.

      1. Not the only one by a long shot! Too many ‘now’s.

        Edited at 2021-06-24 03:18 pm (UTC)

  4. Luckily got acolyte before reading 28 ac, dioptres was a write-in but I would also have spelled it wrongly.
    Liked the sneakily-capitalised Pest, 2LOI. Diet LOI needing a minute or two at the end of a quickish solve. One guess required, the CORE part of manticore, which rang the faintest of bells.
    Must have been a wavelength one, and I was on it.
  5. OK until my last one in when I put in EVIDENTLY wondering how the wordplay worked exactly. The reason I was wondering about the wordplay is that it was wrong! I also went around the 3-point-turn of putting DIOPTER before seeing ACOLYTE. I don’t remember hearing of MANTICORE before, but I trusted the wordplay. And the only GOUT I have ever had was in my knee, so not a foot problem. I also had no idea what EMBONPOINT meant but I did know it was a real word, so that was good enough.

    Edited at 2021-06-24 05:05 am (UTC)

  6. 46 minutes. Some of this was tricky in vocabulary and wordplay but rarely both at the same time, so if an answer wouldn’t come by one means it came by the other, which is just as a good cryptic puzzle should be.

    I’m ashamed to admit that I have always thought that EMBONPOINT was some sort of needlework but I wrote it in as my LOI because I knew the word and it was constructible from anagrist and checkers.

    I thought the wordplay at 1ac was a bit cheeky if not actually dodgy, relying on a two-letter abbreviation that then needs one of its letters removed. I don’t recall seeing such a trick in a Times puzzle before and it’s the sort of thing could become silly if over-used.

    1. I laughed at the audacity of it, but agree it could go too far pretty quickly
    2. We had this not that long ago, and I remember citing the one occasion I’d ever encountered it, from a soft-porn novel Leopold Bloom is skimming to see if Molly would like it:
      The beautiful woman threw off her sabletrimmed wrap, displaying her queenly shoulders and heaving embonpoint.
    3. I had exactly the same thought about 1ac, but in the context of this puzzle I can forgive it.
      1. I could hardy believe but finally had to accept it…

        Edited at 2021-06-24 04:20 pm (UTC)

  7. 45 minutes for me with ACOLYTE bringing up the tear or thereabouts after the unknown sciency thing went in.

    G, you need RA rather than AR at 1a.

  8. I was another who had a tentative DIOPTERS. However I didn’t know the word so when I finally saw the well hidden ACOLYTE it never occurred to me to change my answer to DIOPTRES and I instead invented DROPTIES. Whilst I’m admitting my folly I might as well say that I also shared Jack’s view that EMBONPOINT was some sort of needlework.
  9. Exactly the same as Kevin on DIOPTERS and ACOLYTE — good few minutes at the end there sorting that out. Not sure I’ve seen that “moving north” device for a reverse hidden in a down clue before — will watch out for it next time

    DANUBE was really rather a good clue— have been to Budapest a few times and loved it each time. Did get drenched to the bone on a train holiday with my kids a few tears ago in a huge thunderstorm just before catching our onward train to Bucharest and having to rapidly dry copious banknotes under the airdryers in the station loos. Happy times.

    Thanks George and the setter for an enjoyable puzzle

  10. Loved PLANETOID of course

    Seldom criticise setters, knowing that i couldn’t do better…..but just for once I believe a better clue might have been available at 15 across

    PO is also “Pilot Officer”, and so suggest that “Flier” instead of “Sailor” might have yielded a more convincing surface.

  11. The hare Limp’d trembling through the frozen grass,
    And silent was the flock in woolly fold:

    After 30 mins I had the Clubland/Bothersome and Acolyte/Dioptres unfilled.
    Obscur-ish words as anagrams. This setter didn’t get the memo.
    Thanks setter and G.

  12. Quite chewy in parts I thought. LOI the unknown DIOPTRES. Luckily I already had ACOLYTE in. Liked EMBONPOINT, though it is a bit close to home! Also liked the pest. Thanks G and setter.
  13. 13:07. LOI EMBONPOINT, which I eventually remembered from a previous crossword but needed the checkers. COD to BOOTING OUT.
  14. As I never saw ACOLYTE as ‘a reverse extraction’, as this device was called by my grandfather back in the day. Damn silly spelling of DIOPTERS. Dioptre is French, innit!? Ridickerous!

    FOI 3dn CATO

    (LOI) 17dn MANTICORE the Sphynx – a winged lion – George never shows much interest in such things.

    COD 20ac DANUBE – Pest! with Hon. Ment. to 24dn PHLOX – Back in the nineties had a ‘Gardener’s World’ philo-phlox.

    I clearly remembered Kevin’s note on EMBONPOINT – so it was a right-in! Right on Kev!

    I received my new BLUE (I don’t believe it!) passport today, issued by the British Consulate, Shanghai – I’m good to go until 10 June 2031 – but will I ever get a flight! Or a vaccine for that matter! Don’t fly DELTA! Mood Meldrewvian.

    Edited at 2021-06-24 08:27 am (UTC)

  15. Foiled by PHLOX – I thought about the assemble meaning of ‘gather’ but didn’t get as far as ‘flocks’, and that plant hasn’t quite lodged itself in my brain yet.

    Had to trust the wordplay for CATO as my knowledge of the Romans is terrible, but enjoyed this otherwise. I thought DANUBE was very clever.

  16. I query the reference to ‘obesity’; in EMBONPOINT. Surely it just refers to a woman’s bosom. I seem to remember Private Eye using the word in phrases that just implied a woman had big txxs.
    1. Chambers has:

      adjective
      Stout, plump or full in figure
      noun
      Stoutness or plumpness

      1. You pays yer money….Lexico has this:
        “The plump or fleshy part of a person’s body, in particular a woman’s bosom.”
        Slightly different.
    2. Proust uses “embonpoint” to describe the Baron de Charlus, among others.
  17. Flying today, I was actually so busy yesterday (three consecutive Zooms) that I forgot to do the puzzle.

    Liked PHLOX and MANTICORE. Need to check out EMBONPOINT. I have been to Budapest, indeed was talking about it yesterday, but failed to parse the DANUBE clue.

    Thanks george and setter.

  18. 31 minute. LOI PHLOX when I corrected a careless ADIEUS to ADIEUX. I was late reaching the SE to enjoy the blue DANUBE, my COD, and BARN OWL. A decent puzzle. Thank you George and setter.
  19. 21 minutes, with a late WRENCH opening up EMINENTLY, which had to be last minute rescued from EVIDENTLY. Acolyte eventually corrected DIOPTERS.
    A perfect evening recalled by the Pest clue. On the Buda side in 1989, with family at a restaurant called the Fekete Hollo* (incredibly, it’s still there) fabulous food, stupidly cheap for us. Buda was not well lit, so you could see the stars. Carriages trotted by on the cobblestones, and two beautiful East German girls nearby played immaculate Bach on violins. Heaven needs to take note on how it’s done.
    *Thieving Magpie. Its silhouette in metal juts from the wall.
  20. DNF
    Beaten by a combo of the hidden word and diopters.
    Manticore no problem for an ELP acolyte (quick side reference to the great Steve Hackett).
    Thanks, g.
  21. Very pleasant puzzle on the whole. I was another who thought an EMBONPOINT was something impressive without necessarily being excessive, so was put off initially by “obesity”, but the answer was clear enough. Unlike DIOPTRES; obviously not so keen on the rather obscure word clued as anagram with more than one possible solution, but I got the right one, so there you go. Add me to the people who’ve been to Budapest and found it charming.
  22. 11:18. I loved this, partly no doubt because I seem to have been on the wavelength for it. But it was another where I needed the wordplay for almost all the clues.
    DIOPTRES is an obscure word clued with an anagram, but I think with a bit of ‘that looks like a word’ sense you can work out where to put the letters.
    There was a story in the papers yesterday about a group of French football fans who missed the France Hungary match because they booked flights to Bucharest by accident.
  23. slowing at the end for the ACOLYTE/DIOPTRES intersection. COD BARN OWL collective nouns are a passion. There is apparently no CN for roosters but ‘a Roister of Roosters’ is my nomination and abomination. And a 12ac of Worms?
  24. Pest was pesky and because I’d started out with a snow owl all I could dream up for 20d was Danish which made no sense. Budapest stood in (very convincingly) for 1940s Paris in both the Gambon and Atkinson Maigret series (or is that serieses). ACOLYTE was exceptionally well-hidden. 24.49 after I got things sorted out.
  25. Having corrected ADIEUS to ADIEUX when LOI PHLOX eventually turned up, and worked out the unknown MANTICORE, as well as spotting the clever DANUBE, I was unconvinced by my EVIDENTLY at 2d, but couldn’t see past it and finished up with 2 pink squares. Worked out the correct answer then. Drat! 43:23 and no coconut. Thanks setter and George.
  26. Nice puzzle. Liked PEST. I too knew EMBONPOINT and thought it was needlework. 30 minutes while listening to a tedious PR lady on Zoom explaining how they are working for the Arts Society and how to do the PR locally.
  27. Pleased not to get any blanks in what felt like a middling difficulty puzzle. Couldn’t parse my LOI, the clever DANUBE, before coming here but it was a write-in anyway. 17 mins
  28. I spoiled a 13 minute solve by typing over the E in ACOLYTE with DIOPTERS and then not spotting the gaffe when I “checked” the grid. So 2 pinks.

    MANTICORE ninja-turtled from the record label ELP used to record on (complete with helpful little picture of one).

  29. Which judging from others’ times wasn’t too bad at all. Had to guess manticore and dioptre, both of which were at outer edges of my vocab. Seeing ‘foreign capital’ I immediately assume it’s franc or peso. And then they send one down with no spin. I guess it’s how to get us out. Clever. Is embonpoint close to obesity? I always took it as a healthy kind of plumpness.
  30. To paraphrase Hemingway, I did this puzzle in two ways: first easily, then impossibly. It seems to be becoming a pattern with the easier puzzles for me to knock off most of it then get hopelessly stuck.
    Was fixed on ‘me’ for this writer and didn’t see the obvious Ely for cathedral. Nor did I think eminently worked for ‘in particular’. Didn’t know manticore so was left with three blank spaces. Forgot the collective noun for owls so failed to work that one out. Didn’t know phlox (not into gardening) and couldn’t see Danube. Threw in toss instead of boot (for reasons no longer obvious to me) so 18 ac was impossible.
    I was enjoying it until I got stuck.
    COD acolyte, I nice hidden and a reminder of altar boy days long ago.
    Thanks to setter and blogger
  31. A typo in ADIEXX but not worried about that – wouldn’t happen with pen and paper edition. Found this pretty tricky in any event – one of slowest times for a while. Not entirely sure why because obscurities weren’t too arcane (Manticore well known from the marvellous Robertson Davies novels – if you haven’t, do start reading them. He should have got the Nobel Prize in my view; …) Loved Pest, disapproved of 1ac syntax. Thx to setter and blogger
    1. Yes, the Cornish trilogy is well worth pursuing, particularly What’s Bred in the Bone (which can be read as a standalone). Highly recommended.
  32. My ADIEUS made a finish impossible without help however. Also stuck on DIET.
    Very enjoyable if perhaps not my quickest effort.
    COD DANUBE
  33. Danube was brilliantly clued. Pity I couldn’t parse it at the time of entry. Thanks GL for the enlightenment. You’d think that after watching the pulsating 2-2 draw between Germany and Hungary I might have had greater Buda and Pest awareness. 28’58”
  34. I too was left with A_O_Y_R having vaguely recalled the wrongly-spelled DIOPTERS.

    Took a while to think it out and see the cryptic. Otherwise all good and a pleasurable solve.

  35. Blog suggests sun setting/sinking down. That’s the closest I could get, without a dictionary, and agree it’s not great.
    1. Definitions do not have to be two-way, so “decline” has to indicate “set”, not the other way around. Collins has “to sink, as the setting sun”
  36. Defeated by the NHO MANTICORE, so a DNF. Really liked BARN OWL and DANUBE, though I must confess that one went in and it took me another minute or so to twig what was going on, even though I was a regular visitor to Budapest throughout the early noughties. I recall asking at some point which side of the river was Buda and which was Pest, and I was told that Buda is Bumpy and Pest is Plain. I hope that’s right, because it’s now firmly embedded in my memory.
  37. Where does set=decline come from? Chambers on-line has 43 meanings for “set” as a verb, none of which mentions “decline”.

    Derek

  38. 19.35. Another puzzle that really hit the sweet spot for me in terms of stretchy wordplay and vocab not quite outwith my ken but close to the limits of it. Everything needing to be worked out but all solvable in the end. I had the same spelling of diopters as others needing to be corrected once acolyte became clear. My eyebrow was raised at the use of RA minus the A to indicate R. I finished in the NW with wrench, roister, diet and wired all seeming to admit too many possibilities until finally I nailed them all down.
  39. Schoolboy errors all round from me – DIOPTERS even though I knew there were two spellings, ADIEUS which is nonsense and doesn’t parse, messing up the anagram fodder for the unknown EMBENPOINT (sic), and more.
    I take solace in the fact that I probably wasn’t going to get PHLOX anyway.
  40. Nice, but tricky. I had Acolyte first so no problem with the known Dioptres; was chuffed to write Cato in; had trouble with the R(A).
  41. Some of the definitions were elusive to me too, but I worked them all out before I came here—except “Pest,” entirely, because I just thought there might be another town on that river with just that name. And now I find (Google) that “The previously separate towns of Buda, Óbuda, and Pest were officially unified in 1873 and given the new name Budapest.” (Maybe someone else has already reported this. It’s a work day but I’ll eventually peruse all the comments.)
    Chewy like the last two this week. I’m finding it easier to get thru these with a morning solve.

    Edited at 2021-06-24 04:44 pm (UTC)

    1. I’ve been to Budapest a few times since my first visit in 1991. When I went with a choir we had a local woman as a tour guide. I remember she said that when the towns of Buda and Pest were amalgamated there was some discussion about whether it should be Budapest or Pestbuda. In the end they agreed to alternate the names every few years and let Budapest go first. But the name change idea became a bureaucratic nightmare and was later dropped.
  42. 19:34. Some interesting words all of which, fortunately, I had at least a nodding acquaintance with.
    LOI 19d “acolyte”. I’m beginning again to fail to pick up hidden clues — doh!
    COD 20 d “Danube” where the eventual PDM made me smile.
    Thanks to GHL for the blog and the setter for an enjoyable puzzle.
  43. 57 minutes, so quite hard for me, the last 10 minutes or so being used for an alphabet trawl to find the CORE of MANTICORE — not many of those running around in the streets here (i.e., an NHO). And of course, like everyone else I had DIOPTERS before finding ACOLYTE. I just got a new pair of glasses, but in Germany, where these measures are called Dioptrien, so I was wondering what the English word was, again. PEST was quite a good clue. Otherwise, I had the impression that everything I didn’t understand right away was an anagram — a few too many of those.

    Edited at 2021-06-24 06:43 pm (UTC)

  44. ….EMBONPOINT. I can’t disagree with my GP that I’m obese, but a heaving bosom ? Nope !

    I sensibly entered DIOPT–S and waited for the rather late PDM on ACOLYTE (excellent clue !) before selecting the spelling.

    FOI AS YET
    LOI DIET
    COD DANUBE
    TIME 9:58

  45. Even I liked this one. Apart from set = decline. Diet, barn owl and the pest were particularly good I thought. (Mr Grumpy)
  46. I glanced at the comments here – NOT the answers – to get a sense of degree of difficulty before I started, and almost didn’t bother since it sounded like a toughie. And then I chastised myself for being a wuss and gave it a go. Pleased to report I managed half in an hour and gave up to get on with the day. FOI 19ac ROISTER. LOI DODGEBALL at 8d. Knew what I needed to do for 15ac but chose the wrong sailor – AB not PO – making an impossible anagram. An enjoyable half, though, and thanks to blogger for explaining the rest.

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