Times 25,857 – Bring The Curtain Down

48 comments on “Times 25,857 – Bring The Curtain Down”

1. I confidently wrote in BUTT but this was rejected by The Times app and trial and error reveals that on the iPad at least, the ‘correct’ answer is BATH which makes no sense. Presumably an error but an annoying one.

   Thanks for the blog Jim. Take it easy on Tuesdays.

   1. I’ve amended the blog for 26A to reflect bigtone’s and others comment
   2. Indeed it does not. Ulaca’s Hebrew is just as good as ODO’s (and Bigtone’s) alternative measure of liquid. I have a BUTT and I’m sticking to it. (Yuk!)

      Never heard of a SPACE HEATER. Could have been clued as “Ray gun?” for my money.

      1. People put them out on their patios so that they can sit outside when it’s a bit chilly. Drives the green lobby barmy!
2. Couldn’t get 26ac, and now I know why: dnk the measure. PETIT just meant ‘small’, no? As in petit jury. On edit: I looked again and realized that I put in BATH and it’s right; but I also put in ‘capital setter’.
   I’d like to think that the editor and setter planned this in honor of your last blog, Jim. English major that I am (was), more likely to recognize Suckling than Whewell, I appreciate your efforts–definitely productive efforts–to give meaning to the G in GK. I’m not up to Mephisto speed, but I hope you’ll continue commenting here if not blogging.Thanks.

   Edited at 2014-08-05 08:48 am (UTC)

3. Chambers has for BUTT

   A large cask of varying capacity
   A wine butt properly = 126 gallons (approx 573 litres), a beer and sherry butt properly = 108 gallons (approx 491 litres)

   ie, a butt is a measure

   1. Collins adds: US unit of liquid measure equal to 126 US gallons.
   2. Granted, it’s not much of a clue, but nine is a bit closer to ‘several’ than a hundred-odd!
4. 20′ dead, but with an idiotic typo at 21d. I really hoped my “mistake” would be the one at 26, where I (as confidently as others put BUTT) I had BATH, but I can confirm that BATH is the acceptable answer. I think the response of Ed will hinge around the understanding of “several”, which I would cheerfully concede 126 is more than, and 8 or 9 is about right. Other than that, both answers fit the conditions of the clue, being both measures and containers. Anyone hazard a guess as to how many gallons a bathful is?
   Otherwise a somewhat retro, scholarly kind of puzzle, with COLPORTEUR a rather dated term (though I knew a real one about 35 years ago – always had a drip on the end of his nose). PROLEGOMENA is also not a word in common usage – I spelt it with an O rather than an E which made REDSTART my last in. Memo to self. Count the anagram letters.
   An excess of words in 1ac? I spent a while wondering how to fit in something about a team, while the clue could have stopped with “excessive reaction”.
5. About 27 minutes but I’m another with BUTT. My first thought was BATH but I was absolutely, positively sure it wasn’t a unit of measurement.

   As my junior school head was fond of saying, the more you learn the more you find out how much you don’t know.

6. The definitions fron ODO are:

   Butt: A cask, typically used for wine, beer, or water

   Bath: An ancient Hebrew liquid measure equivalent to about 40 litres or 9 gallons.

   I would say that the ‘several gallons’ part of the clue matches ‘bath’ better than ‘butt’, given that ‘bath’ is a meaure and ‘butt’ a container.

7. I needed aids to finish this off, never having heard of PROLEGOMENA or COLPORTEUR (which surprises me, as a dedicated fan of the composer whose name sounds very similar)

   I also wondered why “cathedral” at 11ac. I must have attended Evensong 100 times during my enforced lengthy term of indoctrination (i.e. my childhood) and not one of the services took place in a cathedral.

   Farewell, Jimbo, as daily blogger!

   Edit: Someone in the forum claims the actual answer to 26 is BATH, which I assume means it’s accepted as correct when submitting the grid. If that’s so it’s a swindle!

   Edited at 2014-08-05 07:52 am (UTC)

8. A mere 100 minutes for this one, which I enjoyed muchly, finishing with the controversial 26a, which doesn’t strike me as much of a clue regardless of its ambiguity.

   WAGON TRAIN probably my favourite. COLPORTEUR from wordplay and pleased that Alpha Centauri turned up somewhere the other day.

   My two bob re the evensong clue is that, in these days of dwindling attendances, while Evensong is still a regular part of Cathedral worship, it is less and less a feature of many parish churches.

   1. I think you may well be right. My local Parish Church, having an excellent Director of Music, puts on one a month with a choir augmented from anywhere we can get them from, but I think we may be unusual. Despite the quality of the music, it’s not well attended, perhaps because it’s not a particularly participatory service.
9. 27.10. 26 would have been quite OK for a slightly offbeat clue had not the alternative been overlooked; thanks setter for the admission. Thanks also for the robust reply to Jimbo’s comment on the evolution of the species and the (his?) blog’s part in it. Thanks also to the man from Dorset for his tremendous contribution to the struggling band of solvers; and for that superb April 1st blog, one of a kind.
10. 23 min.
    As an old crossword hand BATH was obvious, and it was only on seeing the comments that I realised that there could be an alternative. (And I needed an aid to find it)
    Elsewhere, I’m with Jimbo on 6dn, and had same final problem as Zabadak with 1dn/10ac
11. I intended BATH and BUTT never crossed my mind, sorry!

    This setter heartily thanks DJ for his comments, good and bad, helpful and sometimes zany, over the years, but he may be disappointed if I tell him that I will continue to put in science, poetry, religion, geography, history and whatever else takes my fancy (within the bounds set by my editor of course). I would rather despair if the bloggers here had a disproportionate influence on the vocabulary of the Times crossword!

    1. Thanks setter for the BATH-BUTT clarification

       As to topics, it isn’t what you include it’s the balance that matters. At the top of the blog look at Memories/miscellaneous/clue topics analysis dated 1st December 2008. That same analysis done today would present a more balanced picture even though some of that mathematical “improvement” has been caused by a drop in the arts content as much as by an increase in the science content.

    2. Think of us as rowdy backbenchers, with Jimbo as our Dennis Skinner!
    3. I intended BATH and BUTT never crossed my mind, sorry!

       I hesitate to ask this, but isn’t that what a crossword editor’s for?

    4. Was the answer just a definition or was it meant to be a cryptic clue; either way it was weak.
    5. >…
       >I will continue to put in science, poetry, religion,
       >geography, history and whatever else takes my fancy
       >(within the bounds set by my editor of course).

       I’m glad to hear it. Keep up the good work.

12. Another butt here – but me no butts. Thanks for all the blogs Jim and keep the tart comments coming. P.S. The president is spelt Reagan.
    1. Thanks Olivia and typo amended
13. Firstly a big thank you to our blogger for all the fine blogs – glad to hear you will be still commenting.

    This took me just under 20 mins – I toyed with butt but as I had just cleaned the bath, went with the latter. Bit mean of our setter to have words that I had never heard of crossing at 1d/13a. Cue much muttering and scribbling on paper.

14. Another butt – but now convinced by ulaca’s argument that 9 is easier to square with “several” than over a hundred is! And clearly Jack intended the answer to be bath. 23 minutes overall,for a crossword of middling difficulty, but unaccountably unable to parse 4 down.
15. Rather than comment on the puzzle (PROLEGOMENA?, COLPORTEUR?) I’d just like to commend the setter for admitting his (editor’s?) oversight and not trying to justify it. Fair play.
    1. Your time did not go unnoted %&$#?@!
16. 26 or 27 mins (I was interrupted by two phone calls) but I was another BUTT and I needed my Chambers for PROLEGOMENA as I had never come across it before and there wasn’t an obvious arrangement of the anagram fodder, so a technical DNF as well as an error. I had no idea a BATH was an old Hebrew measure.
17. A puzzle I found difficult due to unfamiliar words. Didn’t know PROLEGOMENA or COLPORTEUR (inevitably clued as anagrams) or CENTAURUS. BATH has cropped up in the Listener/Mephisto/Azed at least once this year, I think, but it didn’t cross my mind here – I’d be a tad disappointed if my bath only contained several gallons (unless I was a bird), so the “in this?” part of the clue seems a bit of a stretch.
18. Finally limped in after 80 minutes but with my random arrangement of letters at 1D coming up with PROLEGONEMA. Colporteur also took an age as I’ve never heard the word before. I justified it on the basis it sounded like Cole Porter though subsequent Googling tells me this is coincidental.

    I was in the BATH camp for 26A with BUTT not crossing my mind until coming here. On another day it could easily have been the other way round.

19. I too drowned in a BUTT of Malmsey wine at 26A. Apart from this clue – a weak one even without the ambiguity – an enjoyable puzzle.

    Multi-thanks, Jimbo, for your 176 blogs of the daily cryptic. Sorry to see you go but glad you will still be contributing to the daily commentary.

20. Thank you Jim. Since I discovered this blog 4 years ago you have enlightened me often and I am a better solver as a result. I always looked forward to your perceptive and witty comments, although I haven’t always agreed with everything you say!
21. 22 mins but a butt and a promelogena which to me sounds no less likely than the correct answer. I really don’t like anagram clues for “unusual” ort foreign words where if you don’t know it the letters could pretty much go anywhere. I was surprised I got them in the right places for colporteur.

    I agree that the last 4 words of 1a are unnecessary and I’m not convinced that a single “there” is reassuring.

    Bah.

    1. I wondered about this too, and, after experimenting to the consternation of the bloke mending the printer outside my office, decided that if you say ‘there’ really slowly and meaningfully it almost sounds reassuring.
22. Another BUTT. I found this hard. It took me nearly 90 minutes plus two coffees and I had to use an aid for COLPORTEUR. (Which word my computer underlines in squiggley red as being incorrect so I am not too ashamed that I didn’t know it.) I was delighted that my combination of the missing letters in PROLEGOMENA turned out to be correct. Many, many thanks to everyone who contributes to this blog. Like justinwestcork the blogs enliven as well as enlighten my day.
23. Two missing today – Prolegomena and Colporteur. I’d heard of neither word.
    I’ve enjoyed your blogs Jim over the last few years. Thank you for those. More free time now on Tuesdays for more golf?
24. 35 minutes, needed crosswordsolver.org for 1 dn and 13 ac, so have learned 2 new words today and also that a BATH is a specific measure; I put in bath not butt but didn’t much like either. Otherwise a pleasant puzzle. I spent far too long trying to think of an Irish insurgent to reverse, before realising it was 2 separate bits, and old Che again.

    Pity there wasn’t a bit more science in it for Jim’s last blog. Not counting the quickies, I’ll be well past my sell-by date if I ever reach Jim’s 176.

    1. Unspammed. Guess it was the .org that did for it.
25. Many thanks for all the entertaining blogs, Jim. I do hope you’ll continue to comment.
    27 minutes for this, and I didn’t like it. I have no problem with (in fact I welcome) the inclusion of obscurities like PROLEWOTEVA and COLEPORTER but clueing them as anagrams is unfair and completely unnecessary. I managed to get them both right from a combination of blind luck and speaking French, neither of which should be a condition for completing these things IMO. And like others I thought 26ac was poor even without seeing that BUTT was a valid alternative. There are plenty of obscure meanings of familiar words in Chambers. You can make clues hard just by looking them up but it’s not big and it’s not clever.
    In short, harrumph.
26. Bit beyond me, this one – ground about half of it out before acknowledging I was well out of my depth! Definitelty one where us tailenders sit back and simply admire the stroke play of the top order.

    Great innings Jim, if I may say. Only been hanging around here since March, but have learned a lot from your blogs – and your April Fools Day entry was utterly memorable! Thanks for all your insights.

27. I’m usually in from work too late to blog (ardent reader of the comments that I am), but I couldn’t let the opportunity pass today without a big thanks to Jimbo: his erudition and wit has been an inspiration.

    Oh, and I had “butt” too.

28. I’m with justinwestcork. The blog’s loss will, no doubt, be the golf course’s gain.
    A dnf for me because of the 26a error. I knew ‘colporteur’ from previous crosswords, and had vague recollections of ‘prolegomena’ from somewhere, but it took several attempts at arranging the unchecked letters before I finally settled on the (fortuitously correct) answer.
29. Too hard for me – but I learned some new words. I went for BUTT too…
    Thanks Jimbo for all your help to those of us just starting out.
30. Jimbo, you’ll be sorely missed. Perhaps you’ll consider returning once a year to blog the April 1 puzzle.

    As for the puzzle, 25 minutes, but I had to look up PROLEGOMENA to see where the consonants went as there seemed too many choices, and I had BUTT.

    1. I fear that might rather give the game away, Kevin. But I reckon he might be prevailed upon to make the occasional appearance from the directors’ box. (Far too distinguished for the subs’ bench…)
31. 17:07 for me, two or three times what it should have been – and perhaps would have been if I hadn’t been feeling so darned tired, having just tackled a decidedly tricksy puzzle from 1937 (which took me well over 20 minutes, and I was already feeling pretty tired when I started that one). Fortunately I knew both PROLEGOMENA and COLPORTEUR, and I bunged in the Hebrew measuer at 26ac without a second thought.

    I take encouragement from the setter’s statement that he or she “would rather despair if the bloggers here had a disproportionate influence on the vocabulary of the Times crossword!” The literary content of the Times crosswords was part of what made them special. Without it they run the risk of becoming just another daily cryptic. By all means beef up the science, but lets keep the literary stuff going as well.

32. ….but I just want to say thanks to my honorable colleague from Dorset. I am not sure he can be easily replaced, but we’ll see who Andy can come up with.

    As for the puzzle, I solved it in about an hour, putting in ‘bath’ with hardly a thought.

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