Times 25615

Solving time: 63:50 – with 2 mistakes

I rattled through most of this quite quickly, but then I got bogged down with the last few and started to get tired. I ended up throwing in a couple of random answers in blind hope after an hour but got them both wrong. 28a I’ve now worked out, but 1a still has me flummoxed. No doubt someone will explain.

Anyway I really have to get to bed now I’ll never get up for work in the morning!

cd = cryptic def., dd = double def., rev = reversal, homophones are written in quotes, anagrams as (–)*, and removals like this

Across
1 Man, loaded, in disreputable club, sits at one end (5)I got this one wrong so I still don’t know what it is. Someone needs to let me know though, as it’s annoying me intensely. I went for DAVIS as a man’s name, but I couldn’t see any other reason, so I was assuming it was wrong. It could be DIVES because of the ‘disreputable club’ reference. It is DIVES, of course, being a biblical reference for a rich man. I dare say I have come across this before, but I couldn’t recall it at the time.
4 SUPERB + OWL
9 NIGHTFALL = (THING)* + FAL
10 UN(F)IT
11 MANTIS = scientisT + IS after MAN (island)
12 ANGLICAN = I + CAN replaces the E in ANGLE (corner)
14 KITCHENER = ITCHEN (river in Hampshire) between K and ER – Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener was drowned in the North Sea when the HMS Hampshire was sunk by a German mine.
16 SWISS = S x3 about W1 (a postcode area within London)
17 MA + LTA (Lawn Tennis Association)
19 MEMORANDA = ME (writer) + (ON DRAMA)*
21 LOOPHOLE = LOOE (Cornish town) about P (power) + HOLd
22 EDITOR = TIDE rev + O + R
25 foUNDER or possibly blUNDER
26 ANTIPASTO = ANT (worker) + PAST (background) in IO (satellite, a moon of Jupiter)
27 HARD (toughened) + TIMES (by)
28 T + WAIN – Mark Twain was the pen name of Samuel Clemens. A wain is a farm cart, as in Constable’s The Haywain
Down
1 DON’T MAKE ME LAUGH = (DUKE + HAMLET AMONG)*
2 V(EG)AN
3 ScOTTISH
4 SPARk
5 PALINDROME – ‘test on Erasmus sums are not set’ is one big palindrome
6 tROUBLES
7 OLFACTION = cOmmand + L + FACTION
8 LET ONE’S HAIR DOWN = (WHERE OLD NATIONS)*
13 ANIMAL FARM = MINA (bird) rev + F in ALARM
15 TALL ORDER = TALE + R all about LORD
18 ATHIRST = AT FIRST with the F (fine) replaced by H (Henry)
20 RED SPOT = RED’S POT
23 TESLA – hidden
24 OTIS – I’m not sure how this clue works exactly, but there’s definitely a reference to the Cole Porter song ‘Miss Otis regrets’ in there. It’s O (love) + ThIS. Thanks to all who filled in the blanks today.

68 comments on “Times 25615”

  1. 20:13 .. never quite knew where this one was headed but wherever it was I got there in the end.

    I was also pretty unsure about 1a, which seems to be a convoluted way of indicating the terminal S to tag onto ‘dive’, but the def. isn’t in doubt:

    noun
    1. the rich man of the parable in Luke 16:19–31.
    2. any rich man.

    Edited at 2013-10-25 01:36 am (UTC)

  2. Had to do this on line because of equipment failure. Much prefer a piece of paper. Might have been faster if so.

    Just about dragged up my memory of Dives. (I wonder if the pub called The Dives still exists in Sleaford, Lincs. Many a happy hour.)

    Have to give the COD to the Superb Owl. (Though I have a feeling I’ve seen it before somewhere.)

    1. You have: puzzle 25224, 25 July 2012. You liked it that time too!
      And in puzzle 25231, 2 August 2012 SUPERB was clued the other way round.
  3. 0 (courtly love – 2 tennis refs today!), T(h)IS (no husband)

    1a Definition = man loaded = DIVES a rich man in the Bible.

    Edited at 2013-10-25 01:30 am (UTC)

  4. Off to a cracking start again but ran into difficulty and ground to a complete halt more than once along the way. I was pleased to finish 10 minutes under the hour with no resort to aids. Some of the wordplay was very convoluted and there was a good deal of GK required to understand some answers so all in all it was quite a testing workout for my tired brain.

    Not helped by not knowing who Clemens was and I was relieved to find I didn’t need to know anything about Erasmus in order to solve 5dn.

    Once again I was glad not to be on duty this Friday as I suspect I’d still have been puzzling over the wordplay at 12ac.

    Edited at 2013-10-25 01:42 am (UTC)

  5. 34 minutes but with ‘Ates’ for OTIS. Not being familiar with the song – certainly the song title – made this difficult, but ‘courtly love’ was there to be cottoned onto (not to mention the widowed determiner).

    My ignorance of American sports is such that I thought Super Bowl was spelt as one word.

    Edited at 2013-10-25 02:39 am (UTC)

  6. 27.26 grinding slowly through the left side after I thought I had this setter sussed. The ones that caused trouble were the ones I thought I should know something esoteric about: Erasmus and “corner of church” (some sort of apse? Something to do with icons?). Those and MEMORANDA, where the lesser known MARADONNA, writer and novelist (?) wouldn’t go away. By such intended or accidental trickery are we led astray.
    On the other hand, DIVES went straight in, and I liked the clue for OTIS, both in wordplay and definition.
  7. Helped by knowing DIVES and Clemens . Nice to see Erasmus, one of the more famous matriculants (apart from the ubiquitous Stephen Fry) of my old college, Queens’.

    Edited at 2013-10-25 08:20 am (UTC)

  8. Oh dear. After 32 mins and having stared at 5dn and 19ac for what felt like 10 mins I resorted to aids.

    I completely missed the PALINDROME in the clue for 5dn and didn’t have the foggiest what it was trying to tell me, and I’d convinced myself that 19ac was the name of a Spanish writer that I didn’t know with the anagram fodder representing the first seven letters of the answer and “d or c plus a” representing the notes at the end of the answer. I should have got up, made myself a coffee, and got my brain back into gear because when I sussed out the answers via aids I was amazed I could have been so far off track.

  9. A 25 minute slog to solve this quirky puzzle.

    For DIVES I just went with the laboured but obvious cryptic. I knew the song for OTIS so reverse engineered it. I agree with keriothe – that “but” is very misleading padding.

    The Itchen isn’t that far from me so guessed KITCHENER from the cryptic. Not sure why I should be aware that the guy drowned in a ship called Hampshire. There was a better known KITCHENER of poster fame that the setter could have used. The PALANDROME is a real giveaway if you’ve seen it before (like “able” and “Elba”)

    Well blogged Dave and good luck tomorrow – at least you don’t have to give a speech!

    1. I was a bit puzzled by your comment but having just read Jerry’s blog on the Club Monthly I think you’re wishing luck to the wrong blogger!
  10. 23m but with a complete blank at 24dn. I could have put in a couple of random vowels but the chances of success seemed slim.
    I think the cryptic for this clue is a bit unfair, because the word “but” strongly suggests that you have to find a word for “courtly love” with no H in it. In fact you might argue that it requires it because “but” is otherwise redundant in the wordplay. For this reason I considered and rejected the possibility that “courtly love” might be O. So I’m dead impressed by anyone who managed to solve the clue without knowing the song.
    There are a few other places where this puzzles requires just the sort of knowledge I don’t have (admittedly a large category): DIVES (didn’t have a clue, followed what appeared to be the wordplay), KITCHENER, Clemens. So I didn’t enjoy it much.
    1. I can’t really agree (as you will probably have inferred if you read my comments about this clue) that ‘”but” strongly suggests that you have to find a word for “courtly love” with no H in it’. I think it may be over-analysing things a bit to suggest that the clue should read ‘Courtly love and no husband for this regretful lady’, which I take it you wouldn’t object to. The problem with this version is that it sets up inferences which are not fulfilled (ie doesn’t make much sense). I think, as others have said, that this is a super surface, and that ‘but’ is fine as a linking word given the nature of the beast with which we have to do – cryptic crosswords. Unlike you, I am convinced that, had I cottoned on to ‘courtly love’ in the tennis sense, I’d have been home and dry.
      1. I think this is precisely what the word “but” does in the wordplay.
        I agree thought that “but” is required for the surface.

        Edited at 2013-10-25 09:48 am (UTC)

        1. Maybe we more ‘synthetic’ type of thinkers don’t care so much about these things (sometimes, no doubt, too, not noticing them). The ‘analyticals’ are perhaps like someone with perfect pitch, constantly noticing (and sometimes irritated) by things that don’t sound right.
          1. It’s not so much that it irritated me as that it blocked my path to the correct wordplay. I considered both “love” and “courtly love” as designating O, but as there’s no way to remove an H from a single letter I dismissed the idea, too quickly I guess. It never even occurred to me that “but” could just be filler.

            Edited at 2013-10-25 10:51 am (UTC)

  11. As many will have missed it, I thought I would mention that yesterday’s setter has posted a response to some of the questions raised about 25,614 (see end of yesterday’s thread).
  12. On the setter’s wavelength for once, and I knew all the required GK to boot, which always helps (with the exception of the name of the ship in which KITCHENER drowned, which wasn’t really necessary for the answer). So, all in all, a fairly straightforward work-out for a Friday.

    Count me among the fans of OTIS, a particularly delightful clue if you also happen to know the Cole Porter song. Can’t see anything wrong with the “but” either, which it seems to me could equally well indicate the omission of H from “a word for courtly love” or from “this”, as is the case, and makes for a lovely surface read.

    1. Sorry for flogging a dead horse, but I don’t see how “but” can work in this way. In wordplay terms “but no husband for this” would only make sense in the context of something going before to contrast it with. “Husband for that”, for instance. Otherwise the “but” isn’t doing anything. So I think you have to read it as “no husband for this”, and “but” is just filler to make the surface work.
      The question is whether you think “but” is acceptable as a filler word. I’m not very keen on it but I don’t object particularly strongly, and of course my view is coloured by the fact that I didn’t get the answer!
      1. I understand entirely where you’re coming from. That said, I think this is something on which we will have to agree to disagree. How boring it would be if we all agreed all the time!

        For my taste you are trying too hard to apply the syntactical logic of normal prose, as it were, to the wording of a cryptic xword clue, where I at least (though Ximenean purists might not be) am prepared to allow the setter rather more latitude. In a non-cryptic context you are quite right, of course, about the proper use of “but”, but (just to hammer home that point) its use seems to me justified here for its contribution to the surface read and as misdirection/deception, precisely because it does not obey strict grammatical rules.

        1. Actually I think I’m applying semantic logic. I don’t mind a bit of latitude but wordplay is an alternative reading of the words in the clue in which the actual meaning of those words remains important. Here we have two elements of wordplay (“courtly love” and “no husband for this”) which bear no relationship to one another. Linking them with the word “but” requires us to ignore what “but” means. It’s like saying “I am wearing blue trousers but property is theft”.
          I acknowledge I’m being rather Ximenean about this though and I’m very happy to agree to disagree.
  13. 11:35, so one of those days where you wonder if you might have solved the puzzle before and forgotten about it; I think absolutely everything that a solver needed to know today fell within what I regarded as perfectly legitimate “general” knowledge (definition: things Tim knows).

    There was an album of Cole Porter covers called Red Hot and Blue in the 90s, which included the Pogues doing a segue from Miss Otis Regrets into Just One of Those Things. I suspect CP would have been slightly more charmed by Kirsty MacColl’s vocals on the former than the unique stylings of Shane McGowan on the latter.

  14. Either end? Doesn’t really matter which I supose, and I knew the reference anyway.

    To that end – sorry – there was a sprinkling of GK, but this is The Times, for goodness sakes, and I’m not a fan of the idea that crosswords should be entirely plain in this regard. In any case, it’s Friday, and where the cryptic is fair (and/ or very good, which it is today) I sometimes wonder why we go on about it. I’d prefer more!

    Some lovely stuff in there, I’m plumping for the clever KITCHENER clue as CoD, ‘body made for tennis’ had me smirking, and OTIS, as you may guess, I found entertaining as well as sound.

    Thanks Dave Perry, and setter, for the good works.

  15. Thanks for the blog Dave. I hope you made it into work on time.
    Two missing today: olfaction and Anglican. FOI Twain. Otis from wordplay.
    Vegan = conscientious consumer made me smile.
    Just been reading about Nikola Tesla on wikipedia – interesting stuff.
  16. 17:31 helped by the fact that DIVES was one of the rich men I thought I had better remember in case it came up last Saturday! Not only did I know the relevant song but 24d, but now can’t get it out of my head.

    Loved the Superb Owl.

  17. 45 minutes, with the SW corner being the last area completed. DIVES was one of my first solves, but I was annoyed with myself for not getting TWAIN immediately from ‘Clemens’, since it’s often clued thus. “Miss Otis regrets” rang a very faint bell, so that didn’t hold me up much. I didn’t know Lord Kitchener had drowned, so something learned today.
  18. I’m with topicaltim, as the General Knowledge happened to coincide with mine. It’s quite eerie that I had exactly the same holdups as Andy Borrows. When Andy mentions the clues that have hampered him, I have almost always stumbled on the same ones.
    Given my surname, 28a was always going to be a gimme for me.
    In the end, happy to limbo under the half-hour pole.
    George Clements
  19. 12-13 minutes, about median for a daily puzzle.
    Much enjoyed it. Didn’t know how Kitchener died but got the answer anyway.
    C of E + biblical reference + physicist + inventive unhackneyed cluing: I’d guess this is one of Don Manley’s puzzles.

    Meic Goodyear

  20. An off day today. Got to 22 mins with 4 gaps, gave up bored and came here for enlightenment. Some of it was very good, I’ll concede that.
  21. Am I alone in struggling with this being singular, when the definition is “dishes”? Or have I missed something?
    1. Not sure about that.

      Could “antipasto” mean several dishes, in the same way that “breakfast”, “lunch”, and “dinner” can refer to several plates of food?

      I know that there is a plural form, “antipasti”, but you can also say “breakfasts” etc.

        1. Agreed, but I thought “dishes” was a bit of a stretch for some cheese and salami.
          I wouldn’t normally think twice about it but I am trying to read a long and incredibly boring report today.
      1. If referring to a course, I would still think it was plural (like starters, mains, etc). I’m glad I was not alone, anyhow.

        I agree that life is too short for too much pedantry, but there is something about this sort of things which irks me.

        I was served a single “ravioli” the other day. Mind you, it came with “candid” beetroot, so I didn’t know where to start. And even I don’t insist on calling a toasted sandwich a panino.

        Bob

        1. Candid beetroot? That’s wonderful. Was it hiding beneath the lone ravioli? (raviolo?). Bet that was an expensive lunch, too.

          Edited at 2013-10-25 03:36 pm (UTC)

          1. It was indeed. For some reason they had deep fried the otherwise very good raviolo. Which was… interesting, if not actually something I would recommend.
    2. You’re not alone: I noticed the same thing, but I try not to moan about everything. I actually put in ANTIPASTI at first, which made 8dn quite tricky.

      Edited at 2013-10-25 01:13 pm (UTC)

      1. I did pick this one up but life is too short. Chambers has ANTIPASTO as
        antipasto /an-ti-päsˈtō/ (Italy)
        noun (pl antipasˈti /-tē/)
        An hors d’œuvre, an appetizer

        A poor clue.

    3. I entirely agree with you. The final word of the clue should have been “course”. Setters use plurals of other foreign words, eg le, la, les and this was definitely a mistake.

      Sorry to be anonymous – can’t master the technology!!

  22. All but OTIS in in about 40 mins. Didn’t understand DIVES, just chucked it in from cryptic with fingers crossed.

  23. Threw in the towel after 40m with a fair number of gaps. Thanks for the blog which highlighted the gaps in my knowledge. I agree with Keriothe that the ‘but’ in 24d is misleading. But I was sunk by not knowing even obvious things such as Kitchener being an Earl, never mind the unknown river. And with all the literary references today I ought to have enjoyed this but in fact found it a rather trying slog which no doubt better solvers would have enjoyed.
    1. Vaughan Williams, Dives and Lazarus, as good as the Lark Ascending. Good puzzle.

      Edited at 2013-10-25 03:12 pm (UTC)

      1. I would never want a composition ‘uncomposed’ but there are some that I really would like a break from for say a year on the radio. The Lark Ascending’ almost tops the bill but Vivaldi’s Four Seasons heads the list.
        1. Vivaldi’s Gloria runs the 4 Seasons a close second – and I have to sing (half) of it at Christmas, (Not on my own, thankfully.)

          Ulaca

          1. I had to sing ‘Gloria’ as a 12 yo in my ‘compulsory’ school choir some 48 years ago. Still hate it now!
            1. I somehow don’t think Britten’s War Requiem will ever be elevated to Classic FM “Most Super Stuff You’ve Ever Heard” status. (Preparing to sing it with Maazel at the moment.) Benjamin Britten, conducting a performance, told the choir not to sing so nicely. “This is horrible modern music, you know!”
  24. think 24d may be 0 as in no score at tennis (courtly love) and this minus the h for husband – otis!?
    1. Since you’ve worked that out (well done!) I’m surprised you don’t appear to understand what’s going on in this forum. There are about 40 contributions ahead of yours; did it not occur to you to read them and check whether your point had already been made? In this instance you would not have needed to read any further than the very first response posted some 13 hours before yours.
    1. Please see my response to other Anon posting immediately above.

      Edited at 2013-10-25 04:17 pm (UTC)

  25. Nice one today, requiring all sorts of GK – biblical 1ac, historical 14ac, geographical 14ac, astronomical 20dn, musical 24dn, not to mention sport 4ac, 17ac and literature 28ac, giving it an old fashioned feel. Not an easy solve, but greatly assisted by my having to repeat a tube journey to retrieve a forgotten umbrella. The first long anagram was a write-in, the second took some unravelling. A few vaguely unsatisfactory clues: e.g. UNDER, with go’under, fl’ounder and bl’under all possible; ANTIPASTO – probably a setter’s mistake, not picked up by the editor, whatever the reason, not fair.

    Loved the palindrome!

    And definitely an improvement on yesterday’s.

  26. All the complaints about certain clues being ‘misleading’ and ‘unfair’ are doing my head in. I thought this was a brilliant and original puzzle.

    Edited at 2013-10-25 04:30 pm (UTC)

  27. Interesting puzzle, about 30 minutes. I got OTIS via the intended wordplay but had forgotten the song until coming here. Charming song, now that I’m reminded, as I like most of Cole Porter’s work very much. DIVES also from wordplay, since I really don’t know of the biblical fellow at all. OLFACTION is a word form I’d never seen either, but it wasn’t a long reach from the familiar ‘olfactory’. I know KITCHENER drowned when his ship went down on the way to either Murmansk or Archangel, but the name of the ship is too much to ask. The ‘but’ didn’t bother me in OTIS, and I had the ‘o’ in ANTIPASTO already when I got it, so I didn’t have a chance to wonder about it, but if I had got them the other way round I would have started with ‘antipasti’ too. Regards.
  28. Hmm, if only you had looked at the blog before yours, Dave! See 3dn in the club monthly…

    Otherwise a great crossword this. Unlike the comments, some of which make me quite sad. Heaven knows what the setters must think.

    Edited at 2013-10-25 06:12 pm (UTC)

  29. I can’t say I’m impressed with some of the clueing of late – too many convoluted clues which one eventually solves with an “oh, right” rather than an “aha!” Liked the “superb owl”, though.

    Had no clue about “Kitchener”, but half-knew the Itchen and the intersections left no alternative.

    “Dives” expanded my list of “biblical words and names I do not know”; the “dive” was inevitable, but I spent a long time trying to morph it into “divan” (on which one “sits”), or even a “diver” (a man, who at a pinch might be “loaded” with weights).

    Strangely, given my professional familiarity with members of the enebriata, I knew neither “sottish” nor “athirst”. I am sure I will find a use for them both later, as the Friday night flotsam wash up on the welcoming beach of A&E.

    Glad to note that I’m not the only one who spent time trying to come up with a writer for 19ac – only got that one after all the intersections were in.

    Nice to see Io appearing in 26 across, but I thought “antipasto” was singular, with antipasti being the plural (“dishes”). Or perhaps antipasto is the plural of antipastus.

  30. 11:22 for me. I’m with jackkt on this one: a brilliant and original puzzle. I particularly liked “courtly love” for O, which I don’t recall seeing before. My compliments to the setter. (Don Manley?)

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