Times 25591

52 comments on “Times 25591”

1. Quite difficult but pleasant. A fair number of answers required teasing out after the fact and these, as so often, now seem the best clues: ANTIPATHY (finding TIP from “upset”), AUDITOR (finding or remembering U.D.I), IN FOR IT (finding the split INFO | RIT{e}), EGYPTIANS (working out pretty much the whole thing but especially EG from “for one”).

   The def for MESNE caused a few problems and I had to look it up to find it’s a legal word meaning “intermediate”.

   Man with heavy diesel roller outside re-surfacing the driveway didn’t help much.

   Edited at 2013-09-27 06:54 am (UTC)

   1. Your wonderful last line looks as if it should be followed by a number in brackets.
      1. Sounds like it needs to be a Manley-esque excuse for a poor result, say:
         MONDROTH – Man On Noisy Diesel Roller Outside, Time Hindered
         Rob
2. Happy to have persevered with this tricky one…

   Lots of clever misdirections leading to penny dropping dohs! At the end there were only two I couldn’t parse (ALGARVE and AUDITOR, where I thought of putting in ‘abditor’, glad I didn’t!). Hadn’t heard of MESNE, but it had to be that one.

   LOI: GRIP

3. I put in ‘Enna’ at 8d. I had a bad feeling about this one, with my FOI being 24ac; and, although I completed it, I was not happy about failing to parse a number of the clues, pre-eminently ANTIPATHY & EGYPTIANS. DNK MESNE, but I thought of ‘demesne’, and as Janie says, it had to be. COD to 25ac for UDI.
4. I thought at one point I was going to finish within my 30 minute target but it wasn’t quite to be as EGYPTIANS and GREEN BELT put up a rear-guard resistance. I had to abandon my recent policy of deciphering all the wordplay whilst solving having wasted ages failing to explain GIRL FRIDAY long after spotting the obvious answer.

   I never heard of VINEGARISH but years of skimming through title deeds in the course of one of my paid employments were repaid by recognising the somewhat unusual MESNE at almost first glance.

   The last time 10dn came up here it resulted in a storm of protest, possibly because of the content of the clue – I forget now, but I hope today it has not offended anyone.

   Edited at 2013-09-27 07:18 am (UTC)

   1. Yes, Jack, I remember it well. It was one of mine again. It was 25160 back in May 2012 – http://times-xwd-times.livejournal.com/834780.html#comments
      1. Thanks. Looks like we could be in for some more of it today. I deleted all the suspicious comments on that thread so perhaps it might be an idea to freeze it for posterity. Sad to see a number of familiar names there who no longer contribute.
5. 23 minutes, but ALGARVE went unparsed, since I couldn’t get away from G for good, leaving the book separated in an incomprehensible letter jumble.
   I wonder if the minced oath in the clue for COTTON-PICKING was designed to avoid the offence last time it was used? I still only think of Deputy Dawg, but can’t imagine him ever saying “blinking” when he meant gosh darned. “Blinking” feels very British, C-P very Deep South. Transatlantic cousins, perhaps.
   Excellent cluing here, which repaid the unravelling, usually post solve. EGYPTIANS, my LOI, perhaps the best example of a clue you could hardly expect to solve from wordplay and where the definition is perfectly concealed in plain sight. I spent a long time looking for one of those E?Y-something words that means dedication.
6. 49 minutes of joy. Great puzzle with loads of ticks, but I think I’ll give my gong to the exemplar of a much-abused type at 6dn.

   I think OFF-MESSAGE has to be my second least favourite bit of Campbellesque gooble-de-gook – just behind ‘on-message’.

7. Just under three-quarters of an hour, but well worth the effort; a very satisfying puzzle. EGYPTIANS took a while: misled by “dedication”, I thought “epitaph” must be in there somewhere.
8. 20m. Nice puzzle. I hadn’t heard of MESNE, but I did remember UDI from a past puzzle.
   I wasn’t even aware that COTTON-PICKING was controversial last time it came up. Now that I am less ignorant I’d prefer not to see it here.
9. 26/28 today with Egyptians and the hidden Idle missing.
   Dave – thanks for explaining Refocus and the ‘udi’ part of Auditor. I didn’t understand those two.
   Mesne was unknown to me but the wordplay was clear. Took an age to get Green Belt.
10. A very entertaining 20 minute puzzle that I really enjoyed. I think 16D is relatively easy because there aren’t many words starting E?Y and once you have E?Y?T I think you should be home and dry.

    I did think as I solved that C-P was an unwise inclusion. I remembered the comments last time and the unfortunate history of the word. With so much vocab to choose from its inclusion shouldn’t be necessary and for me would be best avoided.

11. 28:37 … took a very long while to get going on this but afterwards enjoyed the challenge. COD .. SOUNDING BOARD, which just made me smile.
12. 20 mins for all but 7dn and 16dn, I took another few minutes to see ALGARVE, and then I used aids at the end for EGYPTIANS after my time reached 30 mins. For the latter I completely failed to dissect the wordplay properly, and I had convinced myself I was looking for a word I didn’t know that meant some kind of religious dedication. As Jimbo said, with the E?Y?T checkers at the start of the word it should have been a write-in. Back to the drawing board ……..
13. Like keriothe I wasn’t aware of the connotations when this last appeared but we were wised up by joekobi et al. For an editor to let it through a second time is negligence to say the least.
    rednim
14. Rather slow going – not helped by Chrome falling over again. though could spend some of the 15-20 minutes getting it to wake up again thinking about some remembered clues.
    LOI was AUDITOR, as not parsed. No worry about 10d, as I was unaware of its possibly racist derivation.
15. Again, an enjoyable romp. Good to see that the week’s Dad’s Army theme continues with the presence of Private Walker.
    1. I meant to mention that but it slipped from my mind together with a side of bacon and a box of nylons.
16. ….and I did get ‘Algarve’ from the cryptic, having only vaguely heard of it. My biggest problem was in the SE, where ‘Egyptians’, ‘omitted’ and ‘auditor’ gave trouble – never heard of UDI, will note for future reference.

17. The last time this word was used in a Times puzzle someone invited the setter to comment. This particular setter, a regular reader of the blog, is happy to do so on this occasion.

    When choosing words for the puzzle, unless I think I know better, I am guided by COED, Collins and Chambers. Anything marked as “offensive” is immediately discounted, “derogatory” flaggings are considered on their merits, and anything else pretty much goes unless there are other obvious considerations e.g. of taste etc. COTTON-PICKING is variously described in the three dictionaries as “North American informal”, “US/slang” and “US/facetious”. I wasn’t aware of any distasteful racist overtones or indeed undertones. I know the term well from its use in, from memory, Deputy Dawg cartoons.
    I daresay the editor feels it is OK otherwise, as a reader of this blog, he might have taken note of any previous protests.

    1. Thank you for taking the time to contribute and to give us your perspective – it is much appreciated.
       1. Well said Jimbo. As was said last year (when it was clued as ‘damned’ so a little more hard-line) a viewpoint expressed by someone entitled to be offended, rather than by someone who thinks possibly someone else might be offended, would be more worthy of consideration. It’s only a crossword puzzle not the Times leader.

          I didn’t know they had green belts in judo and put in green vest while having a senior moment. Otherwise a nice tricky puzzle. 45 minutes.

          1. I could “go off on one” as they say, at this – do you want people to have to advertise their origin, to object? Do you want people to bring in their own family details? Who decides who’s entitled?
    2. Thanks for the comment, setter. I was the main stormer against the word last time; now that it’s clued as ‘blinking’ rather than ‘damned’ it’s not intolerable, merely tasteless. If COED, Collins and Chambers all pass it it doesn’t mean it isn’t still a little offensive. Cartoon-watchers are perhaps less aware of etymology than crossword-solvers, by and large. Would you use it in everyday speech?
       1. I’m not sure that how it’s defined in a clue is really relevant. If the word has a resonance if offensiveness then it shouldn’t be used.
          However, as a setter, without having any inkling of such offensiveness, all I can go by is the dictionary. To me it’s a somewhat light-hearted and mild expletive that I remember from the days of Deputy Dawg cartoons. And dictionaries back that up.
          Even Merriam Webster online gives no inkling of offensiveness. Terms can have dubious births and then become completely harmless, just as the opposite is also the case.

          As to would I use it – well, probably not in the same way I wouldn’t use “lily-livered” as a serious term for “cowardly” or “son of a gun” as a term of praise 🙂

18. I am being badgered to go to a meeting at the moment, so I must restrict myself, as we say down at the rubberwear convention, to a few words of praise. This was jolly good, and a worthy end to the week.

    Have a good K (geddit) everyone.

    Chris G

19. Way off the wavelength today – 32:16 including the application of several lots of Tippex along the way.
20. Another puzzle that took me an hour to solve, but that’s fine. Last week or the week before I complained of a string of easy ones, which I found less satisfying. Quite a lot of the time I was solving from the definition (eg 7, 25, 26 once I had the first V). One of the clues that gave me the most trouble was 23, until I remembered SP for ‘starting price’; solving that was a great help to getting 26 and completing the SW corner.
    An enjoyable puzzle with a nice set of clues.
21. 18:10 including a couple of minutes at the end justifying auditor. I didn’t find this particularly hard, having got on wavelength early on, but as I was solving I was aware that I was spotting some tricky stuff straight away that could hold others up.

    What I did find it was hugely enjoyable and the best puzzle we’ve had for a while, combining wit and ingenuity throughout.

    So many great clues to choose from but I’ll give COD to Algarve for the “simple life in pool”.

    Thanks to Dave for the blog and to the setter for a fine piece of work.

22. Is anyone aware of a usage outside of Ian Smith, Harold Wilson and HMS Tiger?
23. Kosovo
    1. Thanks.
24. In the decades immediately following the Rhodesia business, “declaring UDI” was used colloquially (at least in South Staffs, where I was living at the time) to mean any assertion of independence or rejection of consensus, no matter how parochial. e.g. “The wife’s declared UDI tonight and gone out with her mates” or “The Vicar’s declared UDI and is getting rid of all the pews.” Not heard it used like that for many years, though.
25. Solved this early, but late to the commenting party. Fortunately nowhere to put in IDOLS so I was good to go. 21 minutes, and five of them on the last three (ALGARVE, OFF-MESSAGE and what I was sure should be MESNE but it didn’t look like it was going to help with the other two).

    Lots of sneaky stuff there, but the wordplay was very fair – eventually I got MESNE and ALGARVE from wordplay, though I didn’t see the wordplay for ANTIPATHY or COTTON-PICKING

26. 33.12 for a nice little tester bar an unworthy ‘cotton-picking’. Deputy Dawg is meant to be insensitive to such antecedents as the word carries; it’s ill-advised there, but for the Times to connive in this sort of chortling brashness is to put two fingers up at history in the name of dictionary correctness.
    1. “for the Times to connive in this sort of chortling brashness is to put two fingers up at history in the name of dictionary correctness.”

       I think that’s a ridiculous comment, with respect. The idea that the Times Crossword Editor is deliberately trying to connive in some sort of schoolboy attempt to brandish “naughty terms” – hiding behind the safety of the dictionary, is laughable.

       If you are going to condemn Deputy Dawg and this crosword to the naughty step then I think you’re also going to have to purchase a few more naughty steps to accmoomdate all the others who’ve used it in all innocence.

       Dictionaries, by and large, don’t hold back on branding terms as offensive I’d say, in addition.

    2. Let’s hope the rush to the bottom of who can be most offended by what does not mean such words get overlooked. Ridiculous over-sensitivity, even more so given the supposedly racist origin is very much unproven. What next nitty gritty? picnic? niggardly? giggling? nit picking? there are plenty who proclaim themselves offended by those. Nonsense. btw I regularly use UDI in work to describe errant depots who don’t follow processes. That’s probably racist as I’m referencing Rhodesia.
    3. “Monkey” banned from Times crosswords? While it used to be a real word, it now has overwhelming racial overtones and should be banned immediately.
       Rob (aka Roy Hodgson)
27. Bravo Mr Setter!

    I would say the Times Crossword Editor is certainly more likely to be in tune to sensitivities and err on the side of caution.

    I found today’s puzzle to be a fine challenge and at the tougher end of the scale. I use ‘cotton-picking’ occasionally and there is ne’er a racist or sexist bone in my body.

28. There’s a lot of side-stepping going on here. Look at slavery in your mind. Anyhow I’m done with it. I’ve little doubt the word will be clued for again sometime but I’ll stay growling on the floor.
29. I have since done some research into the origins of “cotton-picking”. Quite interesting, especially this discussion, which also touches on another Deputy Dawg favourite “tarnation”

    http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=269153

30. A puzzle I enjoyed very much, and found fair, witty and challenging but capable of successful completion without resorting to aids.
    George Clements
31. 14:56 here for a puzzle which with hindsight looks a lot easier than I found it at the time. No complaints, though (apart from a slight feeling of unease brought on by 10dn).
32. Why does fashion become ton in 10d? Thanks
    1. Ton is quite common in crosswords for fashion http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ton–2

       Look out for hep as an alternative to hip and in, meaning fashionable.

33. It’s often wise to avoid entries that could be construed, or even misconstrued, as insensitive in whichever way. Anything referring back to those awful days of slavery really ought to be struck out, in my view, and in such a fine puzzle necessarily removed.

    But please, how good was this as a Friday diversion? I enjoyed it very much.

    Tracey Taylor-Young

    1. Madness to suggest words that may cause offence should be avoided. Increasingly someone is offended by everything, including urban myth etymologies, so you’ll end up either catering for stupidity or deciding which sensitivities you think are important. Not that selective sensitivity bothers people of that ilk. Ban all references to ancient Rome, I say. Their human rights record was pretty poor.
34. Challenging puzzle, and wildly entertaining blog. Is ‘high horse’ offensive? I sincerely hope so.
35. A wrestle this for an inexpert solver, but fun. What a shame that the Maquisards could nt have been armed with a sten rather tan a stun
36. Lots of expert hidden clues which made for a pleasurable time. I had Enna for 8 down – another girl’s name which has Ann(rev)and E, although I see where Edna’s coming from.

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