TImes 25566 – Gordon is a moron?

41 comments on “TImes 25566 – Gordon is a moron?”

1. This must be the closest I’ve ever got to George’s time on a Thursday, so I’m feeling rather pleased with myself.

   Quite a few oddities in this puzzle. As George mentions “Heath Robinson” is a very strange anagram indicator (14ac); but so is “in Scrabble” (27ac). Goes well with the “tiles” but.

   Then there’s the “this” in 11ac which I had to consider as part of the literal: “Getting steely grip this”. Also the “in” in 17dn which does nowt. Why not “Latin translation by…”? And the “at” at the start of 8dn is similarly peculiar.

   I was, however, glad of the “for one spell” as a notification that ALRIGHT is only one of the ways of writing said.

   And two really delightful sub-defs should get a special mention: “forces woman” for WREN in 11ac and “being in no hurry” for LORIS in 19dn. The anagram at 12dn speaks volumes about English public schools. No?

   Most trouble in the NW with SONATINA / IRONWORK last ins. Otherwise, I might have matched or even bettered George’s time. (Not that that matters much.)

   Edited at 2013-08-29 04:27 am (UTC)

2. Best crossword of the week for me, with all the clues going in from the wordplay, apart from the two I didn’t get, TARBOOSH and BATH CHAP – neither of which I knew, and both of which crossed. Less than an hour apart from those two.

   Two points of note: interesting to see SIN coming up again (as if Someone wanted to say something to someone in Dorsetshire!), and I reckon NICHOLAS can join IDA and MIKE in a trio, to play a SONATINA perhaps?

   Edited at 2013-08-29 03:37 am (UTC)

3. 
   As Ulaca, I two was left with TARBOOSH and BATH CHAP blank in the NE. Both unknown. I also had one wrong today, with ‘geri’ being my fairy (hidden word, natch).

   ‘Trader’ seemed a little loose for FLORIST, and that took me an age, as did PENCHANT (good misdirection of ‘bent’). I too smiled at the anagram for the ETON clue.

   Didn’t know that Blair became ORWELL, nor that meaning of SHOWER, I always thought it meant an incompetent group, rather than a detestable group.

4. 39 minutes working out the wordplay as I solved, so a reasonable result for me especially considering how few answers went in on the first read-through.

   Didn’t know TARBOOSH or UNCO = very (rather than strange/unusual) and couldn’t swear to meeting SAP = trench before, although it wasn’t much of a stretch if one knows what ‘sappers’ do.

   After yesterday’s anniversary, 26 across reminded me of a famous speech by another prominent American, also 50 years ago this year, in which he announced “Ich bin ein Berliner”.

   The second meaning of SHOWER has come up many times before and somebody always mentions the immortal Terry-Thomas who adopted the catchphrase “absolute shower” (pronounced “shaar”) following his appearances as Major Hitchcock in the Boulting Brothers satires “Privates Progress” (1959) and “I’m All Right,Jack” (1959).

   1. Thanks for the reminder of the great man. A fellow student of mine worked in a car showroom in London in the early 70s — a vacation job. One day T-T (who already had a Rolls) came in and asked to buy a Mini. My mate was reluctant to sell a Mini to such a tall bloke. But T-T insisted. He paid in cash and off he went, scrunched under the low roof.

      Next day, T-T was back in the showroom and asked to buy another Mini. On asking why he wanted a second, he was told: “Went home, pressed the control for the garage and drove straight down the inspection pit”.

      Edited at 2013-08-29 05:45 am (UTC)

      1. A great story, which I’d not heard before. I spent much of the 1960s being driven around in a mini and never had any problems with leg- or head-room, and at 6′ 1″ I’m an inch taller than T-T was.

         “Privates Progress” was 1956, not 1959, but my earlier posting is no longer editable.

5. I don’t think it was ever that specific, Janie, just a generally derogatory term.
6. Sorry to be a bit negative but I did not enjoy that. NW v messy and that NE couple (tarboosh and bath chap) – ugh. Should have carried a government health warning “Experts Only” to steer me clear of it!
   1. I understand the frustration and even the disaffection, but both clues pass the test in that, although the target words are not well known, the clueing is fair and, in the case of 8d, eminently gettable. (I kicked myself after coming here for not thinking of a bat sort of club.)

      It’s good to increase one’s wordpower, no?

7. Found this difficult, taking 3 minutes until I wrote in my first answer, which turned out to be wrong. A number of unknowns and was surprised that only BASH CHOP was a guess too far.
8. Bit slow to get going on this but once a head of steam built up, got through it in fine style.
   Quite familiar with Bath Chaps and astounded that George seems to be right, it’s really not in Chambers, though the Buns, the Chairs and the Olivers are..
   To those who think that a clue can’t be solved if you are not familiar with the word you are looking for, I recommend a few goes at the Club Monthly, which soon teaches you how straightforward such clues can be..
   1. As a sometime attempter of the CM, I’d say that it’s actually not as helpful for the average solver (among which I place myself) as the daily cryptic. Those who have access to the Times Crossword Club might also like to test themselves against ‘past papers’ in the shape of Saturday Prize Puzzles. The problem for me with the CM, which at least I find more accessible that Mephisto, is that I am rather ground down by the sheer volume of such clues. But, horses for courses, as always.

      Edited at 2013-08-29 09:12 am (UTC)

9. 21 mins, and a puzzle that was much more my cup of tea.

   SONATINA was my LOI. I had thought of it much earlier but I struggled to parse it until the d’oh moment when I remembered Nat King Cole.

   As has already been said, there was some clever cluing here, and I actually didn’t see “loris” as “being in no hurry”, but the answer had to be FLORIST. The first part of a three-part series about Greek drama was shown on BBC4 on Tuesday night and ORESTEIA came up in it, which was handy as far as this puzzle is concerned. I thought Heath-Robinson as an anagram indicator was pretty good.

10. Defeated by the NW corner. SONATINA, ORESTEIA, PERI unknown: thanks George for showing me how, on another, better, day I might have deduced them. Managed to work out other unknowns (e.g. BATH CHAP, TARBOOSH).
11. I thought this was a great puzzle. Some unknown words but all gettable from the wordplay. I thought 20 was brilliantly apt. Is it an original?

    Tony D

12. An excellent puzzle. My late father was rather partial to a Bath chap, which was a cooked pig’s cheek, breadcrumbed, and eaten cold with salad and pickles. I was fortunate to pick up SCHEMATA immediately, and finished in around 17 minutes. COD to FLORIST.

    Younger solvers unfamiliar with Heath-Robinson should seek out his cartoons. Some brilliant lateral thinking on display.

13. All correct today with FOI Tesserae and LOI Bath Chap. Thanks George for explaining F+loris+T. Loris = ‘Being in no hurry’ indeed!
    Had several unknowns: Sap (trench), Tarboosh and Bath Chap. I trusted the wordplay to derive Bath Chap over the more likely looking Bath Chop.
    Thought the Monkey-Wrench, Churchill and Aunt clues were particularly good.
14. SONATINA was LOI for me too (also didn’t remember Nat King Cole).
    A Bath chap was a family Christmas treat for us pre-war, but I’ve not seen them for many years, so I’m not surprised that it was unknown, especially as it’s missing from Chambers. Aeschylus had come up in another puzzle recently, so having looked him up then, the Oresteia came to mind fairly readily.
    I agree, Heath Robinson was an excellently original and apt anagram indicator.
15. 20m. By a stroke of luck (bound to happen from time to time) I knew almost all the obscurities today. The one exception was “sap”, but as Jack says if you know vaguely what sappers get up to it’s not much of a stretch.
    12dn is very naughty. To quote from another comedian from the same generation as Terry Thomas: “ooh you are awful, but I like you!”
16. 23:56 .. brilliant stuff, I thought.

    ETON WALL GAME raised a smile. I can’t believe the anagram is a new one – it’s too priceless – but it was new to me. Anyone old Etonians here? They’d know (unless they head-butted the wall once too often).

    Full marks to the clue for BATH CHAP. I certainly hadn’t met it before but the wordplay did its job. Now that I know what a bath chap is, I hope this is as close as I get to one.

    COD .. NIGHT OWL – fine clue for a lovely expression (which always reminds me of the Gerry Rafferty song – which is no bad thing at all).

17. …because I couldn’t make if fit the cryptic. This happened with ‘sonatina’, ‘penchant’, ‘florist’, ‘schemata’, ‘shower’, and ‘aunt’. I did see most of them eventually.

    I couldn’t remember how to spell ‘tarboosh’, had to look it up, and that enable me to see the unknown (in the US) ‘bath chap’.

    A fine puzzle, the kind I like, but beginners are not going to be happy.

18. 11.17 – probably helped because I knew all the ‘unknowns’. I loved the slow Loris!
19. Best of the week so far with some brilliant clueing.

    Like others I’m a fan of new anagram indicators so long as they work, and ‘in Scrabble’ and ‘Heath Robinson’ seemed right to me. I knew BATH CHAP from somewhere, but as the clues for both potentially troublesome words were fine, I shelled them out, plus the rest, in around 25 very enjoyable minutes.

    UNCO as ‘very’ is from ‘unco guid’ as I understand it: images of the day were conjured by 11, 14& 26 ac, and 8, 12, 18 & 19 dn.

    Thanks Gordon and the setter.

    1. Perhaps I should be worried that after some 50 years of solving and 60+ years of life I have never knowingly come across UNCO but I put it in based on the cryptic. My dictionary suggests its derivation as a variant of uncouth. I guess that one lives and learns.

       Edited at 2013-08-29 02:58 pm (UTC)

20. On the whole, an excellent puzzle, with obscurities accessible via wordplay. For myself, I rather liked “Heath-Robinson” and “scrabble” as unusual anagram indicators, but I agree with Mctext that some of the surface clueing (11A, 7D and 17D) was clumsy. No problems with UNCO, which I’m sure has come up quite a lot in the past.
21. 40 minutes to complete all but 8 and 14, then quite a lot of staring. In the end I guessed TARBOOSH from the anagram fodder, which seemed to confirm my wrong instinct that the second word of 8 was CHOP. Finally had to resort to an aid, which gave me BATH CHAP, but I was none the wiser as it isn’t in Chambers or COD.
22. 22:50 and I was quite astonished to find that bath chap, tarboosh, oresteia and fell to were all correct.

    Good puzzle, with the wren, the wall game anagram and good riddance stand-out moments.

23. Hi all,

    Apologies for the off-topic post, but I’ve just remembered a clue that I wanted to find the answer to and then forgot about. It was about a week ago and the clue was just “To?” It was either 4,3 or maybe 3,4. Can anyone tell me what the answer was?

    1. …number 25562, which will be blogged here on Saturday by Andy. So you’ll have to wait until then.
       1. Ah, thanks.
24. 100% but with guests staying (wife’s birthday week) couldn’t prove the Greek Plays clue, although my parsing was spot on – no access to PC.

    I’ve already left the following comment on The Times site

    <<<
    When will they change it to QUIZWORD?

    Yes, there is an unwritten list of classic authors who are “fair game” in a cryptic crossword – Shakespeare, GBS, Dickens etc, and the “man in the street” can’t moan about them.

    but TS Eliot, and now some Greek.

    Yes 2d is very easily parseable,

    but only to arrive at a word that the aforementioned “man in the street” (aka grammar school educated me) has never come across

    I bet this elitist setter will never lower him/herself so we get Dean Koontz, Stephen King, Patrick Bishop, or other much read, populist authors.
    >>>

    male 555 (7,3)???

25. First round of golf after holiday lay off was someting of a slog as was this offering. But ended up playing the back 6 well, as I did with the puzzle.

    Amazed BATH CHAP isn’t in Chambers – very old fashioned dish. The Greek Plays may be elitist but the cryptic is simple. I would have liked to see some science in the grid to balance this sort of stuff. And ORCO is nearly a chestnut.

    The clues to NIGHT,OWL and ETON W-G are first class and I must endorse Jerry’s thought that if you find some of these clues too tough then Mephisto and the Club Monthly combined with the excellent blogs that appear here are first class training grounds.

26. So I have learnt what a Bath Chap is, had to look it up but the others went in smoothly in 25 minutes of pleasure. A guess for PERI being some sort of fairy. As has been noted, superb anagram fodder for 12 down.
27. Having had lunch in the wine country (Sonoma), I was in no shape to deal with this in the afternoon, or evening for that matter; but after breakfast managed to complete it. A couple of DNKs, as often (ETON W-G, BATH CHAP), but I can’t see anything to object to, including ORESTEIA; and much to praise, as other solvers have noted. I think I’d give my COD to 15ac for its elegant surface. I was surprised to see how many people didn’t know TARBOOSH (another lovely clue); I’d bet big bucks it’s been used before. Ditto UNCO.
    1. What’s your definition of “big” in “big bucks”? 😉
       1. Mind you, I didn’t say “used before in a Times cryptic”.
28. Very minor correction. ICH is not 1 in German (that would be EIN) but it is “I”

    Never heard of TARBOOSH but couldn’t fit anything else. Luckily I had heard of a BATH CHAP (maybe living in Bath for years) or probably some other anagrams might have fitted too.

29. This was a mine field for me, although I knew the ‘sap’ meaning. I had to look up BATH CHAP in the end, thinking from the wordplay that the answer must be some sort of chop. DNK UNCO either, and didn’t get the Heath-Robinson reference at all. A lot of the rest, though, was very good, especially the Nat King Cole reference. Regards
    1. Think Rube Goldberg Kevin. I thought it was a rather excellent anagram indicator and one I didn’t recall having seen before.
30. Another one I did online. Am getting used to it now. Under the half hour. I loved this puzzle but can see that we older folks have a definite advantage. A lot of us did Latin/Greek/Classical studies at school. And we have the added decades of reading to help us. There’s not many advantages of old age so I hope the critics of this puzzle will concede this one to us.
31. 16:01 for me – disappointing, given that there was nothing I wasn’t thoroughly familiar with. And it’s not as if I was completely off the setter’s wavelength, as I kept parsing clues correctly but finding myself unable to think of the words – leading to the usual worries about advancing senility. (Deep sigh!)

    Having said all that, I thought this was an excellent puzzle, full of ingenuity.

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