Times 25266: They put bromide in your tea

53 comments on “Times 25266: They put bromide in your tea”

1. 45 minutes. My kind of level, with some nice easy long clues from which to ‘spider’ off.

   I wonder if there’s a case for 10ac to be TOUT – a Scottish word for an illness?

   1. Suspect the “each” (chacun), as per Jack’s comment, settles this.
      1. I can see why GOUT is a better answer, but I can’t decide whether TOUT is justifiable also.
         1. TOUT did cross my mind, but as I didn’t bother to look up whether it was also an illness I dismissed it. If I had known that I might have been tempted. But to get if to mean “each French person” I think it would have to be TOUS. On that basis, I think the answer to your question is that it is not justifiable.

            Derek

            1. I was thinking more in terms of Tout le monde.
   2. How long till we get the puzzle with ‘Complaint which each Jacobite sympathiser may have?’
2. “12d – TRAVEL AGENTS. RAVEL and AGE in TENTS”

   Isn’t that using the second E twice? I can’t decide whether that’s an error in the crossword also… It depends on how you read ‘lots of time’ – it could mean “most of (AG)E”, I suppose but, call me cynical, it smells like a wrong un.

   Edited at 2012-09-12 01:39 am (UTC)

   1. Now I look again, I think you’re right about the deleted E. Will edit. Thanks.
3. 32 minutes. I was heading for something in the region of 25 but I was held up working through the alphabet to find 10ac. This is a reference to the saying “chacun à son goût”.

   I rather like cryptic clues if not overdone but perhaps having three so prominent today is overstepping the mark a little.

   Edited at 2012-09-12 01:04 am (UTC)

4. 32 minutes with the last five or six spent on the composer of Night on Bald Mountain (anyone else remember the ads for Maxell tapes with Peter Murphy from Bauhaus?) and the bore.

   Of the three clues that McT singles out for special disapprobation, I’m with him on LONDON BRIDGE (it just seems rather weak even if ‘long’ is not strictly inaccurate given that there has been a London Bridge on – or near – the same site for donkey’s years), but I thought WALKING STICK and ARRANGER were fine, especially the latter, which combines a musical surface with its archaic meaning of one who settles disputes.

   I liked 1ac, which I needed, as things turned out, since I tried first ‘eyesight’ and then ‘sunlight’ at 4dn. With a tip of my hat to the blogger for unravelling the first part of 3dn for me.

   Edited at 2012-09-12 01:20 am (UTC)

   1. Reworked by Rimsky-Korsakov as “A Night on the Bare Mountain” , or, as one University Challenge competitor apparently thought “A Night on the Bear Mountain.” (The question asked for musical titles which included names of animals.)
5. …doing most of the middle, and getting stuck with wrong words in the corner. I had put in ‘evaluate’ and ‘sunlight’, making it difficult to finish until I rethought them.

   The cryptic definitions were so easy I was not much bothered by them, although easy clues usually give me difficulty – today, my problem was the obvious ‘frontier’.

6. 16:01 .. I was all geared up for another Wednesday brain scrambler. It took me a few minutes to realise this wasn’t one and get moving on it.

   Main hold-up was self-inflicted by throwing in SKYLIGHT.

   I liked the cryptic defs, especially WALKING STICK. But then, I’m a fan of them generally – light relief from the serious business of wordplay.

   1. I wonder if we can create a record for wrong alternatives: eyesight, sunlight and skylight already in the bag. Any more?
      1. Nice thinking. There are definitely quite a few more possibles – maglight, tealight, twilight etc..

         I do hope someone went with INFLIGHT – the light at the end of the universe.

      2. Fanlight
   2. I enjoyed the cryptic definitions – and am definitely in the “variety is the spice of life camp”. No wordplay – no clue, seems a bit harsh.

      It’s not like Mctext to be so grumpy. But thanks for the blog anyway.

      1. Thanks to you too! Not at all grumpy; just Ximenean.
7. 26 min 06 sec.

   Held up by Immodest.

8. 12:12, but one highly stupid error, 18d, where I flung in ‘abridger’ reluctantly, and forgot to go back and check. I don’t see how there could be any argument about 10ac, given the clue. I can’t imagine that anyone has read ‘The Cloister and the Thing’, mctext, so not to worry.
   1. I had a senior moment when I read it as The Cricket on the Hearth and thought ‘Wait a moment, McT, you’ve got the wrong Charles.’ But I’m putting it down to the befuddlement induced by Les Amants du Pont-Whatnot.

      Edited at 2012-09-12 04:16 am (UTC)

9. 14:23, with a fair bit spent on last-in ARRANGER, R being towards the back end of the alphabet. I didn’t know the “settler” meaning, and assumed it was indeed a third CD.
   CoD (for me) to GOÛT, as a smile-raiser. One of these days, it’ll be crossed with (say) CROÛTON and we’ll be marked down for not using the circumflex.
   For those who want a real challenge, The Cloister and the Hearth is available as a free download for Kindle (other readers are also available, as they are obliged to say at the Beeb). Some of it’s in Latin.
10. Held up at the end by IMMODEST and MEAGRE. No time since I fell asleep in the middle. I knew Mussorgsky had an odd name (like Inspector Morse who’s already-forgotten first name is also unusual) but forgot what. At 18d there was a missed chance to put Ravel as the arranger (orchestrator I suppose) of Mussorgsky’s most famous piece. Never heard of EAGRE. One of those Mephisto words where you think can’t possibly be, look it up, and there it is.
    1. Endeavour Morse, Paul
    2. Endeavour Morse
11. As others have said not a puzzle to write home about made even easier by the weak cryptic definitions (of which I’m not a fan either). Also didn’t know Mus… first name was Modest but guessed from checkers.

    What I’m not for McT is leaving all three answers out of the blog. A lot of inexperienced solvers use the blog as a teaching aid and they may well find these clues much harder than you and I. For that reason I never leave any answers out of my blogs, no matter what the level of difficulty.

    1. I try to be mindful of new solvers. But, in this case, there was a case to be made and a point to ram home. Now our imaginary solver will have: W—L—I—G —TI—K; L—ND—N —R—D—E and A—R——G—R. And they will know that they’re all cryptic defs. That ought to be enough to go on. No?
12. I’m with sotira on the cryptic definitions – the holistic clue approach can be a relief from the sliced-up finicky; and even if they’re sometimes giveaways the defs have their own brand of longwinded humour. 19.28 here, the seconds given only because they nick in ahead of McT. Last in gout; the knowledge of a French saying an interesting requirement, new to me I think, and acceptable.
    1. And an anglicised version of a French saying to boot, as I believe natives would pretty much never say ‘chacun à son goût’ – unless perhaps they were taking the rise out of les rosbifs, other formulations and expressions being preferred, eg ‘à chacun son goût’. But I await confirmation or otherwise from those who are more francophone than someone with a French O-level from 1974!

       Edited at 2012-09-12 08:58 am (UTC)

       1. My French O-level was in 1958 and it seemed to be a language created merely for the writing of sentences. Though I later translated from it, to a small extent, I never learnt to speak it as it should be spoke at all. (Incidentally the word-order of the saying isn’t stipulated by the clue.)
       2. I believe “à chacun son goût” is a bona fide French expression, but it’s used much more by English people: I’m not sure I’ve ever heard it in France. “Chacun à son goût” doesn’t make sense in French, and is an English corruption, I think.

          Edited at 2012-09-12 01:19 pm (UTC)

          1. Although my study of French went beyond O-Level to university, I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t feel able to pronounce with confidence off the top of my head on the alleged superior merits of “à chacun son goȗt” over “chacun à son goût”, though my instinct was to doubt that there was much basis for it. I am relieved to report, if anyone’s still interested, that my larger Harraps says both forms are entirely acceptable. Nor does there seem to be any evidence for the view that the phrase is Anglicised cod French never used by the natives themselves. Actually, I don’t think that many English-speakers do use it – in preference to, say. “there’s no accounting for taste” – even if most would know what it meant.
             1. I didn’t study French beyond my baccalauréat!
                I’m fairly sure I’ve never heard either version in France, and a brief straw poll of the French people within ten yards of me yields no recognition of either phrase and a consensus that “chacun à son goût” makes no sense.
                However all that only adds up to a sample of three so I’m happy stand corrected. Maybe it’s a phrase that’s just gone out of fashion.
                1. Well, I can only say that the phrase has always been familiar to me as pukka French, and both versions do make perfectly good sense – either “each to his own taste” or “to each his own taste”. That said, I am getting on and my edition of Harraps is 50 years old, so maybe usage has changed. If you can widen your straw poll, and assemble more evidence, perhaps a letter to the dictionary’s editors is called for?

                   In the meantime, as they may or may not have said in ancient Rome, de gustibus non est disputandum.

                   1. “Chacun à son goût” doesn’t sound French to me, or to my authentically French colleagues. “Chacun a son goût” perhaps?
                      I’m certainly not going to write any letters, but I will keep up my informal poll. In the meantime I did a bit of googling. “A chacun ses goûts” or just “chacun ses goûts” seems to be the most common incarnation these days. If you search for “chacun à son goût” on google.fr you get a load of English websites.

                      Edited at 2012-09-12 05:44 pm (UTC)

                      1. My personal preference would certainly be for “à chacun son goût” over “chacun à son goût”. Interestingly I’ve never before com across the versions you cite with “goût” in the plural.

             2. OED has first usage as William Cowper in a letter in 1784 so as anglicised French it has quite a long pedigree.
13. Bit of a struggle today. Parallel went in from the definition and Immodest, Artistry and Gout were hopeful guesses from the checkers. Thanks mctext for explaining them all.

    Couple of questions:
    How do you get the Art and Try elements of Artistry?
    Is 18 Arranger? I’d put in Assassin initially. CDs aren’t my strong point.

    Made one error – Entailed not Entitled.

    1. I had it down as ‘short article’ = ART(icle) and ‘essay’ = TRY. Not 100% sure about the first element though as ‘short’ would usually suggest only one letter missing, I think, unless otherwise specified.
       1. Collins has art. as an abbreviation for article and artificial. Arty, on the other hand, is an abbr. of artillery, apparently.
       2. Thanks jackkt. I’d not thought of the “try” meaning of essay.
14. 30 minutes with not a clue how ENTITLED meant “with style”, so ta for the explanation. Also didn’t know what kind of bore an EAGRE was although I thought (wrongly) that it might be an alternatively spelt AUGER. COD to GOUT over IMMODEST.
15. A very straightforward 11 minutes today for a puzzle that strangely fell into place from the bottom to the top, with the GOUT going in last. I enjoyed myself
16. 18m, with quite a few at the end on 1ac because I’d put in SUNLIGHT and it took me ages to question it. However I put in ENTABLED, from “[league] table” for “championship”, and a sense that this and “style” seemed like vaguely feasible architectural terms.
    I don’t mind the odd cryptic definition but I did think they were a bit overdone today.
17. I carelessly put EVALUATE instead of ESTIMATE, which made 6 down impossible and boosted the time to a hefty 46 minutes. I had a doubt about 19 down: “castaway’s companion, having docked” seems
    an ngrammatical way to indicate docking the last letter of “Friday”.
    1. For ngrammatical read ungrammatical.
18. A straightforward puzzle taking about 30 minutes.

    I don’t think SIGMA is adequately indicated in 6dn. ‘End of Socrates’ is S; ‘End of the Greek, Socrates,’ or End of Socrates in Athens’ might indicate sigma.

    Nor am I convinced by 10ac. The answer and the rationale were obvious, but the relationship between ‘each French person may have’ and ‘chacun a son gout’ is very loose. I’m afraid the question mark doesn’t rescue ii for me.

    I got 17 immediately so I think we must have had a similar clue before, since I don’t normally automatically think of Modest when I see the name, Mussorgsky.

19. Most worth saying has already been said.

    But if I might add my ha’p’orth to the debate for and against cryptic defs: I am with Sotira and others in being (generally) a fan. True, they need to be well-disguised and preferably amusing, and not giveaways like the recent absurd one about the rotating device needed to lift a chopper (or something like that). All the cryptic defs in this puzzle satisfied that test, I thought. Variety is the spice of life and all that. The notion that a clue may only be deemed properly cryptic if it involves the more conventional kind of wordplay is absurdly restrictive. If the cryptic def is cleverly camouflaged, there is still, so to speak, a code which has to be cracked before the solution can be read en clair.

    Not a particularly hard puzzle, but I made life more difficult for myself by putting in SKYLIGHT at 4 dn and not realising my error until the very end when I was left with a combination of checkers at 1 ac seemingly incapable of being part of any known word. I also hesitated to put in TRAVEL AGENTS, having assumed at first that “lots of time” must account for the AGE bit of the solution, but then spent some minutes wondering how the second E could be made to do double duty as both the E of AGE and of TENTS. Eventually I came to the same conclusion as David Bodycombe – i.e. “lots of time” = “most of AG[e}”. But unlike him, I don’t “smell a wrong’un”. On the contrary, it seems to me a clever piece of deceptive clueing.

20. I had no problems with this except an embarrassment of 4dn alternatives, thinking fanlight and then sunlight before finally seeing the light.
    A bit surprised however to see the attack on cds. I tend to fall in the “Cut the poor setter some slack” school of thought and expect that they would not find it easy to cope without them. And as already stated, they are often an easy way to a smile. I like them.
21. A rare sub 20 at 18.45 for me so definitely on my easy side with no standouts or holdups and unusually for me no unknowns.
22. Also had evaluate at 9 ac so didn’t get the end of Socrates. Otherwise enjoyable enough: I like the cryptic definitons…….chacun a son gout
23. I strongly disagree with the principle that all clues must have “wordplay”. Clues with definitions and wordplay are just one type of cryptic clue, In my opinion provided the clue is otherwise sound, accurate, fair and, in some degree cryptic, surely the rest doesn’t matter?
    I particularly liked the WALKING STICK idea which some might find easy but which will be a challenge for many others.
    1. See 4dn in Times 25276. Ximenes would be rolling in his grave. No?

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