Times 25,129 – Smooth Sail

61 comments on “Times 25,129 – Smooth Sail”

1. No plain sailing down here today! Most of the hold-up was in the SE: pondering COOLER (why?) at 26ac and trying to get more than a dd out of 22ac. The latter had to be AWAY (Football pools abbrev. for “away win”) via the (excusable?) DBE, but I didn’t want to enter it because I couldn’t see “constantly”=AWAY until the penny dropped. (“I toiled AWAY at the puzzle all morning”.)

   Not overly fond of “strongly desire”=URGE (verb, 18ac) — seems more like “recommend” or “encourage”. But suppose it will pass.

   Why the “say” for BIRKENHEAD? (My old home town, BTW.) Perhaps because it might also describe the Lord or some other thing of which I know nought?

   1. I agree about “strongly urge”. “Urge” for “desire” both as nouns I can see but the addition of “strongly” rules that reading out.

      On 22, where does “united” come from? Is the idea that a team loosely called “United” winning at Chelsea against Chelsea F.C.(not apparently called “United”) would be an AWAY win? Dear God, if so!

      AWAY = “constantly” now understood thanks to your example.

      Edited at 2012-04-05 02:26 am (UTC)

      1. That’s how I think it works. I’d have preferred “Liverpool win at United”!

         Now I think about it, maybe the egregious “say” in 21ac should have been in 22ac??

2. …about ‘away’ and ‘slobby’. I still don’t see the double definition of ‘away’. Moreover, one of the omitted ones, ‘anchor’, was one of my last four in – then triumphantly entered ‘ballyhoo’, ‘Geiger’, and ‘leg’. On the other hand, the other omitted down was my first in.

   I never heard of ‘charlock’, but the cryptic hands it to you.

   In 10, being = entity, so ‘sum’ is only the definition.

   1. Chambers has: “a match won by a team playing on the opponents’ ground (football pools)”. Probably outwith the US ken?

      On edit: I note that Uncle Y now quotes the same. Apologies.

      Edited at 2012-04-05 02:37 am (UTC)

      1. Part of my gripe with this clue is that it relies on the solver knowing that Chelsea as a soccer club is not United.

         1. Doesn’t the “at” take care of that? That is, regardless of club names, is it not sufficient to tell us that X is away at Y?

            Would “at Stamford Bridge” have worked better for you?

            1. You may well be right about ‘at’. The jargon of soccer usually only features in my life through crossword puzzles so I don’t really know what I’m talking about. Would “United win at Old Trafford” be AWAY or HOME?

               On 27ac I don’t recall ever meeting R for Reaumur before and I wonder if it’s on the Times setters list of approved single letter abbreviations that PB has told us they use for guidance, or is it a new departure.

               1. From Chambers
                  R or R.
                  abbrev: rand (South African currency); Reaumur’s thermometric scale (also Reau); Rector; regina (L), Queen; rex (L), King; River; Rontgen unit; rook (in chess); ruble(s); rupee(s)
                  1. Thanks Uncle Y. The abbreviation isn’t in dispute but there has been a lot of discussion here in the past about single-letter abbreviations allowable in the Times daily and Peter B advised there is a list which setters use as a guideline.
      2. My problem was with the ‘constantly’ part. ‘A w(in) ay’ is what I was thinking.
3. Would you care to expand on 22ac?

   19ac is most likely Henry. Helen would be excluded by the daily Times convention on living people.

   1. Another cross post! My take on 22ac is below. Hope it helps.
4. Anyway, I’d now better come clean and admit this took me over the hour – just. AWAY at 22 went in for want of anything better with only “win” in the clue satisfactorily accounted for.

   TATAMI and CHARLOCK from wordplay alone. I never heard of either.

   Not a happy experience.

5. Doubly as unhappy as Jack, as this took me 2 hours plus change. I actually resorted to aids at one point but because I had the wrong letters that didn’t help and I was forced back on my wits.

   I wonder if anyone else had ‘set’ at 25dn for a while? It fits the wordplay. Thanks to Yap Suk for explanations of 5dn and, um, 6ac. Today I learned what a squib is when it isn’t damp.

   I believe at 18ac the setter is relying on the archaic meaning of ‘desire’ as ‘express a wish to’, as in ‘When I desired him to come home to dinner’ (Comedy of Errors).

   At 22, ‘United win at City on 30 April’ would do me fine!

   Edited at 2012-04-05 03:33 am (UTC)

6. This is a pangram minus P and Z. This can this be remedied. How?

   Clue: the P is easy; the Z a bit harder.

   1. Well, AZAN (the call of the muezzin) would have fitted at 22ac and I suspect might have saved me a lot of time and trouble!

      For P, 11ac could have been PELT and very nearly was when I was solving it.

      On edit: I just realised that changing 22ac as above loses the W so change 11ac to WEPT.

      Edited at 2012-04-05 06:06 am (UTC)

      1. I had: 11ac PELT and 26ac CROZET (Islands).
         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crozet_Islands

         1. Zest for belt; adept for alert.
7. 32 minutes of steady solve; so not particularly difficult, despite not knowing TATAMI & CHARLOCK. Not much fat on any of these clues. I liked the artifice of 5d but COD to the similar INANE.

   I started to put AWAY in on first reading, but had doubts by the time I got to the Y, so it stayed AWA for some time, before its ideographic similarity with ALWAYS convinced me, probably quite wrongly. Strange how one never thinks closely about expressions like bevearing away not being the antithesis of beavering at home.

   Oh, and the Réaumur scale was news to me, but the Wiki article is worth a visit, if only to see what “may well be the best statistical graphic ever drawn”.

8. I share all the reservations so far expressed about this puzzle. The “say” at the end of 21A looks like padding to help the surface reading. It contributes nothing to the definition. It’s abscence at 22A to indicate DBE compounds an already poor clue for reasons given above, particularly by Jack

   The use of “R” to signal Reaumur scale is pure Mephisto solving and I notice perhaps a trend to the inclusion of more of these abbreviations in the daily puzzle. Don’t fret folk you’ll grow to love them!

   The rest of it was striaghtforward enough – 20 minutes to solve

   1. Not sure I see the problem with 22ac. You don’t really need to know that Chelsea aren’t call United: it’s pretty obvious that “United” and “Chelsea” are football teams, and the phrase “United win at Chelsea” doesn’t make much sense unless they’re different teams.
      I take your point on the DBE, although this is one of those cases where I have no objection because the example leads so directly to the answer. This is, of course, a matter of taste.
      1. I’m not so certain as you about the “obvious”. As with all these things its obvious if you have the prior knowledge.

         Chelsea is first and foremost a place (a part of London) so “United win at Chelsea” could refer to geography and if you don’t know that “United” are by common usage in sporting circles from Manchester rather than say from The Kings Road you could be somewhat confused (as Jack clearly was).

         1. Yes, take your point. If you don’t recognise “united” as the name of a football team (whether Manchester, Newcastle or Ebbsfleet) you’re in trouble.
            In any event I emphatically would not argue for more football clues.
         2. Points well made, Jim. You could also have mentioned that Chelsea is particularly famous for its annual flower show which might have opened up a whole other range of possibilities for a ‘win at Chelsea’!
9. I liked this one over 25 minutes, not least because of the deliciously quirky 2 and 5, and the 880 yards in TATAMI.
   Like everyone else, I struggled with AWAY as “constantly”, and with URGE as strongly desire: thanks to ulaca for a contextual example of the latter.
   GEIGER is a physicist I’ve heard of – didn’t he invent automated checkouts? My Chambers gives R for Reaumur’s thermometric scale, the name remembered from Jules Verne.

   CoD to the clue that gave me most pleasure: QUARTERDECK. Apart from anything else, it gave me the Q for DISQUIET: Until then, I could only think of bangers, rockets, Roman candles and Catherine wheels, none of which were helpful.

10. 23 minutes. Many of the same queries as others. None of them caused me any real problems though.
    The one exception was my last in, 22ac. It’s never occurred to me that “away” in the phrase “beavering away” means “constantly”. I’m still not entirely convinced that it does, exactly. In fact I’m not entirely convinced that it means anything at all.
    R for Réaumur Scale is a bit Mephistoish, no?
    1. How about ‘chatter away’?
       1. The same comment applies. Practically I can think of a couple of examples of when you’d say “chattering away” rather than just “chattering”:
          > “He was chattering away, when…”. There’s a sense of continuity in time here, anticipating an interruption perhaps. It’s not quite the same thing as “He was chattering constantly, when…”
          > “Look at you, chattering away!” A sense of mild rebuke for chattering a bit too much, or for too long. Still not quite the same as “chattering constantly”
          I should get out more.
          1. The key here is that Chambers has ‘continuously’ as one of the definitions of away, so the setter is quite entitled to use it as the literal. Might we say that the function, and effect, of ‘away’ in ‘chatter away’ is to intensify the continuous meaning already packaged in the verb itself?

             ‘He loves to chatter away at Christmas when he’s surrounded by family’ suggests to me an enhanced continuity when compared to ‘He loves to chatter at Christmas when he’s surrounded by family’. The critical connotation I would say was a separate matter, more in the realm of pragmatics than semantics.

             Time for me to get out now!

             1. I’m not questioning the use in the clue: I agree the setter is quite entitled to use it as it’s in Chambers. I’m just saying it caused me problems, and then musing pointlessly as to why. Your Christmas example is a better one than either of mine so I’ll stop now. Rather than getting out though I should probably do some work.
    2. It just struck me that “away” sometimes appears in sea shanties in the sense of “continuous” (As in “Haul away, Joe”). Again, I always assumed that the “away” in “Shenandoah” had the conventional meaning but now I’m not so sure. “Away, you rolling river” could mean that the river is continuously rolling.
       1. I’ll be looking out for it now in the various motets, shanties, ballets, part song, etc. I sing!
          1. I think you’re the person who sings in a male voice choir. Am I right? Male voice choirs seem to love spirituals and shanties. Unfortunately, I’m the wrong sex for shanties but have often wished I could sing bass. I have to make do with alto in a large mixed choir. By way of compensation I’m a paid up supporter of the Pontardulais Male Voice Choir.
11. A slowish 42 minutes, about 3 of them trying to make sense of ay as constantly. I don’t see what’s wrong with ‘Port, say’ with port as the drink in the first instance. Anchor last in with a daft 5 minutes on its own. I think urge for strongly desire is alright, on the idea of ulaca’s example but still used. As I come to the last clue I urge my unwilling mind to stay alert. In 19 I only hope it’s Henry not Helen on grounds of everliving for him and not still-living for her.
    1. The problem with “say” is that it helps the surface but confuses the definition. “Port” is a valid definition for BIRKENHEAD. “Port, say” is a valid definition for “wine” but not for BIRKENHEAD.
       1. That’s why I say ‘in the first instance’; the setter wilfully allows a shadow-definition to linger behind the main one. Personally I think the wile’s in the spirit of the game.
          1. It all depends on the rules of the game. If I came across this sort of thing in an Araucaria puzzle I wouldn’t think twice, but the Times normally has a more Ximenean style and on that basis I’d say it’s against the rules.
       2. Good point. ‘Port, say’ logically clues an answer such as ‘place of commerce’ or ‘logistics centre’, of which it is an example; whereas ‘Birkenhead, say’ would clue ‘port’. (Limiting myself to the logistical sense, joekobi’s point notwithstanding.)
          1. 
             Absolutely. Except that in my house, ‘Port, say’ logically clues ‘fortified wine’.
12. No real problems for me in solving this (17:29) except that I can’t spell GIEGER (see?). That led to 2 yellow cards from the cyber-ref (how long before Chelsea v. United is being refereed by ASIMO? I’m looking forward to seeing Wayne and co argue with him).

    More discombobulated by 21 than 22, really. The ‘say’ seems to have wandered into the wrong clue.

    COD .. THE BACK OF BEYOND .. great fun.

13. Another one of those crosswords where I only had a few written in, mainly for the reasons outlined by others above. I then suddenly had a few moments of inspiration and staggered to a halt at about 21 minutes. LIke sotira, THE BACK OF BEYOND was COD.
14. I’m suffering from man flu at present, so not in the best of moods to start with, and this crossword didn’t help. Too many clues left me thinking ‘Is that all it is?’ 22 in particular, but also 5 & 27. I didn’t know CHARLOCK, but it was the obvious solution. I thought there might be a pangram in the offing after the Q, X & J went in early on, but no P or Z as has been pointed out.
    Grumpier now than I was when I started. Think I’ll go and shout at someone…
15. Just as a matter of interest, what does the blogger mean by a ‘tichy’ clue? The only reference I can find is as an alternative spelling for ‘titchy’, meaning ‘small’. This can’t be what he means, surely?
    1. If you refer to Uncle Y’s list of abbreviations at the foot of his blog all will be revealed!

       Edited at 2012-04-05 02:13 pm (UTC)

    2. It’s Uncle Yap’s shorthand for ‘tongue-in-cheek'(-y).
       1. Thank you, I’d missed that. So it won’t be appearing in the crossword!
16. How about ISBN as reference to a book
    1. ISBN is an abbreviation for International Standard Book Number and could not be used to mean “book” nor are we expected to know that number n means War and Peace
       1. 16A Beginner
          Accept your point re ISBN
          The usual abbreviation for the book of Isaiah is ISA
          Clearly IS works for 16A
          1. Chambers gives both IS and ISA as abbreviations for Book of Isaiah
17. Did this on a very crowded train this morning and thoroughly enjoyed the experience as it concentrated my attention for much of what might have been a fraught journey.

    Knew CHARLOCK from one of my favourite poems, As the Team’s Head-Brass by Edward Thomas.

    Feel a bit of a duffer for taking such a time to identify the composer in 17 as my old mate Joe Green.

18. Found this very tough…and, ALERT for a pangram, spent ages at the end trying to fit in the missing letters…

    Anyway, had all but DISCRETE in the end, but several without full understanding.

    COD: INANE

    Thanks for blog. Now I’m going to go back and read all the comments above.

    Edited at 2012-04-05 05:25 pm (UTC)

19. About 25 minutes, and I learned CHARLOCK and CHOKEY as new pieces of vocabulary. Knew BIRKENHEAD only as the Lord, but figured he had to be from somewhere, so why not a port? I hadn’t understood AWAY except in the ‘win’ sense until reading the blog and all the comments above. I don’t have much to add to what’s already been said. I enjoyed the clever INANE and BACK OF BEYOND devices, but they’re very similar, so having them both in the same puzzle dilutes the effect somewhat, so COD to the other clever device at QUARTERDECK. Regards to all.
20. Was I alone in putting “Wham” before any checking lettes were in?
    1. I immediately thought WHAM when first reading the clue, without any checking letters, but I didn’t put it in. It certainly seemed right, though.
    2. I put in WHAM too
       1. Good rule of thumb – don’t enter 3 and 4 letter words until you have obtained at least one checking letter.
21. 26/29 today with Entirety, Verdicts and Chokey missing. I didn’t know “chokey” until today and I’m glad I do now!

    Made little headway with this in the brief time I could give it at work but on settling down at home after supper made steady progress. Key to unlocking the left hand side was getting Birkenhead, then Quarterdeck from the crossing K, them Disquiet from the crossing Q and then Inane. Inane raised a smile.

    Back to Augusta…

22. 26:06 for me – over half of it spent agonising over 22ac. I thought of AWAY (more or less straight ~), but couldn’t convince myself that it could mean “constantly”, and had to work through the alphabet eliminating other possibilities (including AJAX, since football teams were in the air), finally coming back to AWAY as the best of a doubtful bunch.

    In the end I concluded that it must simply mean “constantly” (having tried and failed to relate it to ALWAYS or AY), but my addled brain couldn’t come up an obvious example.

    Apart from that (or even with that, if I’d been less dim), nice puzzle.

    1. The problem with the AWAY clue is that it’s DBE again. That combined with unusual meanings made it a tough one.

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