Times 24,440 – Garnishing on a well-cooked dish

50 comments on “Times 24,440 – Garnishing on a well-cooked dish”

1. About 30 mins for me. But I thought I must have got ONEIDA wrong since when I stopped the clock and checked it in Chambers it didn’t appear. I got held up for a bit since I stupidly wrote in DÉTENTE instead of ENTENTE at 26ac (it’s hidden so it’s really unforgivable, but I was still trying to be fast at that point).
2. Spent 35 mins on this one, thinking things were harder than they actually turned out to be. But I suppose that’s a sign of decent clueing. Last in was ONEIDA, the only thing I hadn’t heard of and had to check in the Mac OED. But I’ll give this COD since at least one EID is the Eid ul-Adha, held on return from Mecca I believe, making the clue rather appropriate.
3. 26 min here, but had to cheat to get ONEIDA. Two obscurities (oneida, eid) is a bit much for one clue, surely? But then again, I may be just one of a few to be unfamiliar with both. Also MAESTRO and wizard don’t exactly spring to mind as synonyms. But that’s just nit-picking. An enjoyable, well constructed puzzle as is usual from the Thunderer. It is easy to lose sight of just how lucky we are.
4. About 30 minutes here. I confess that as a US person, and a New Yorker, ONEIDA was only trouble due to the somewhat obscure religious festival reference in the wordplay. The Oneidas were one of the NY tribes, and we have Oneida County and Lake Oneida to remind us of them. My last was ISOPRENE, unknown to me but solvable from the anagram. ADIT was, probably still is, a US puzzle staple. Overall a fun puzzle with a lot to commend it, including esp. EXPEND and ENGLISH SETTER. Nicely blogged as usual, Uncle. Regards.
   1. and eid unfamiliar to me also but strangely i was given a cd for xmas by a band called Oneida who hail from Brooklyn so that’s 2 separate learning curves merging.
5. 16:00 .. last in ONEIDA, which gave me pause.

   COD .. the ENGLISH SETTER, which gave me paws. Good fun.

   1. In the Foreword to his Collected Shorter Poems W.H. Auden writes:
      “Again, it makes me wince when I see how ready I was to treat -or and -aw as homophones. It is true that in the Oxonian dialect I speak they are, but that isn’t really an adequate excuse”.
      Homo-phono-phobes please note.
6. I found this a lot harder than the other colonial solvers have done, finishing on the hour with with a lucky guess at ONEIDA. The NW corner was particularly tricky – I spent too long with the wrong half of the law before getting COMPILER.
   But i agree with everyone that it was a top quality puzzle with some excellent clues. Any number of COD candidates, but i nominate the spotted dog and the Canadian.
   I seem to have settled into a pattern of taking PBx5 to solve – on which basis i predict a time of 12 minutes for Mr B to crack this one.
7. A DNF for me, after a fairly brisk trot through most of it. I was reasonably sure I had ENGLISH TESTER wrong (I was thinking some kind of pigeon maybe) so I gave up trying to fit words into O?E?D?. I had contemplated Oneida at some point but couldn’t see why that random collection of letters should be preferred to any other. COD to WARRANTING for which I had a blind spot for some time.
8. agree this was a fun puzzle, with some inventive clueing. Like Ross I had a question mark against MAESTRO=wizard, but that’s a minor quibble.

   I knew EID and got ONEIDA from the wordplay – I only knew it as a brand of cutlery, and relied on that as sufficient evidence of its existence.

   I particularly liked the spotted dog.

9. 38 minutes in three sessions. I found most of the puzzle straightforward but needed a few guesses to complete it.

   I didn’t really know COMPILER but what else could it have been?

   I couldn’t picture an English Setter from the description in the clue – the only dog with spots on a white coat that came to mind was the Dalmatian. I’ve now looked it up and recognise the dog but never knew the name of this breed.

   I got ISOPRENE from the anagrist and the checking letters but didn’t know it. I worked out ONEIDA as the most likely answer at 15 but didn’t know the word nor the explanation of EID.

   ADIT was a word that stumped me completely in a DT puzzle about 40 years ago and I have never forgotten it. It often comes with a specific reference to mines but this was missing today.

10. The best all round puzzle for some time – 25 minutes to solve. Clever use of language and some very smooth surfaces. I particularly liked WHEATEN for its combination of surface and “two slices” device.

    I think “biology” at 1A is definition by example – pity. I don’t quite see “takes such an age” for ICE. I knew “eid” from bar crosswords – it cropped up again quite recently.

    I was pleased to see ISOPRENE, we appear to be getting a wider use of scientific language (also COMPILER perhaps fits that comment).

    1. There is a plain def in 1A (“moral sense”) which is not by example, and it’s surely the definition that matters most.

       Brian Greer, who is very clearly against D by E in his book written at the end of his editorship of the Times puzzle, has this example: Pools entries making one a rich man = DIVES. Would you complain because one can also dive into the sea? Likewise with “How chess players regard each other, in general (6,3,5)” – other games use boards too.

       1. I think the reason we don’t mind certain D by Es is not only becuse they are often not the main definition, but because there is some other point for employing it: “pools” of course in Peter’s example giving us a lovely surface. I don’t thing a “maybe” or a “perhaps” would have gone amiss in either clue though. However the D by E in 1 across today really jars for me: why on earth “biology”? Does it have any more connection with “conscience” than physics, biology or any other science? And when I solved the clue I was left with a feeling of deflation that there was nothing more to the “biology” link than the generality of science, and a slight feeling of annoyance that I’d been unfairly misled.
          That’s not to detract from a fine puzzle overall though.
          1. The problem with indicated D by E is that the number of ways of fairly indicating the example is pretty small. For experienced solvers, “biology student, perhaps” or similar would make it much more obvious that we needed something of which biology or “biology student” was an example. This could have made 1A an easy write-in and the whole puzzle much faster. It only takes a few clues to turn a moderately difficult puzzle into an easy one.

             If the quoted examples are good enough for one of the strictest two Times xwd editors (I reckon Mike Laws was equally strict), whose work produced puzzles I’d count as a couple of minutes easier on average than the current ones, I’m left wondering how easy the clues have to be to satisfy everyone.

11. 12:42 – so richnorth’s prediction was pretty close. I had a rather hasty initial stab at GATE for 6A, which was crossed out quite quickly by deciding that parties and football matches were not the same thing.

    11D kept me busy for a while at the end, not knowing that there is an English Setter to go with the Irish / Red one. Wiki’s “setter” entry suggests that we should watch out for Russian and Gordon setters too. After looking at a few ?E?T?R words to go with ENGLISH, I came within a whisker of writing “English Tester”, hoping that the definition was something about white sheets and beds, before coming to my senses.

    In a UK context at least, “eid” seems no longer obscure – you can read about it in news stories like this one, and I’m sure I’ve seen eid cards in shops in High Wycombe, Aylesbury, or both.

    Enjoyed most of the puzzle, but wondered a bit about 25D. For regulars, ADIT is an old friend, but for beginners, something like “passage” or “tunnel” seems both clearer than “access” and better for the surface reading.

    Edited at 2010-01-21 10:01 am (UTC)

12. 18:06 here, due to getting stuck early on and taking a long time to get going. However, once I got into my stride everything came out quite easily, and I was left wondering why it seemed so difficult at first. I wasn’t keen on the def by example in 1A, nor the rather clumsy definition “computing routine” for 5D, but other wise a pretty good puzzle. COD to ADIT.
    1. I’m with you on COMPILER and think we may see more of this. If setters actually start to use words that are outside their comfort zone we are bound to see some clunky stuff. I don’t think we should be too critical though. I would rather encourage them to learn and experiment in an effort to widen their horizons.
13. Ashamed to contribute as this was a bit of a research slog this morning, all a bit depressing given how easy others found it. ADIT, ISOPRENE and ONEIDA from wordplay. Surely the use of MAESTRO for wizard is just use of language that one would expect from any decent wordsmith but even given the “may” I did wonder what ROOF GARDEN had to do with office workers in particular. Surprised that many have not heard of Eid. Anyone working in an office in the last decade will have been plied with exotic confections by their Muslim colleagues at Eid, probably served up in the roof garden.
14. Unconscious need for anonymity today. Sorry, that was me.
15. Anyone who wishes to complain about the setter’s definition of ‘compiler’ had better write to the OED and put them right!
16. That wasn’t me but the following is from the OED. I have deleted all citations except the last (most recent). I wonder if “compiler routines” are still used – any programmers out there?

    QUOTE

    b. Computing. A routine for translating a program into a machine-coded form.

    1966 A. BATTERSBY Math. in Management viii. 206 Finally there are the ‘compiler’ routines which make programming easier. When they are fed into the machine, they set it up so that it can accept instructions in a different ‘language’ from its normal code.

    1. Compilers are still used, but I don’t think many people would now call them “routines” – this term would be reserved for lower-level tools like “sorting routines”.

       Mr Battersby’s description is poor. If the languages were spoken ones, compilation would be the act of translating an English passage into French before giving it to a French person to read. His description sounds more like teaching them to speak English and then giving them the English passage.

       Edited at 2010-01-21 11:57 am (UTC)

       1. I think that must be from quite an old edition of the OED though. The current COED online definition is “a computer program that translates instructions from a high-level language into a machine-code or lower-level form which can be executed by the computer”, which is definitely a bit more like it.

          1. That suggests that the version you can read online as a UK public library customer is not the current one. It says “A routine for translating a program into a machine-coded form.”
          2. It’s copied and pasted from the on-line OED.
    2. We seem to be tracking an evolution in computer terminology. Interestingly, The Battersby compiler definition more closely defines what would now be called an emulator.
17. A testing 22 minutes: I knew EID but not ONEIDA, so was fairly confident with it. However, I shot myself in one foot by putting in DETENTE before changing it to what was actually written in front of me; then gave the other foot a peppering by putting in NEOPRENE. Completed my hat-trick of uninspired guesses by going for WIT instead of WAG. Could do better…
18. As a New Yorker and a programmer, ‘compiler’ and ‘Oneida’ went right in. Unfortunately, so did ‘detente’, so it took me a while to see ‘coincident’. I had not heard of ‘isoprene’, but it seemed likely enough.

    It did take me a long time to see ‘ice [age]’, an unusually indirect clue, but it is difficult to make the 3-letter ones hard.

    As for the English setter, he could have just clued it as ‘I’m a dog!’ and left it for the men in white coats to come try to spot him.

19. A very enjoyable puzzle. Completed in 65 minutes or so. A couple of clues I didn’t understand the wordplay – 12a WARRANTING and 15a ONEIDA so thanks for that. Thought 19 d WHEATEN was very clever and smiled at the construction of MAESTRO and OTTAWAN.
20. I enjoyed this and had trouble with the same three words as everyone else but I had no problem with the wordplay for adit, isoprene or Oneida. Eid is actually the end of Ramadan, not the beginning. If you live in Birmingham you cannot really miss it since it is usually celebrated with fireworks at dawn.

    I spent too long on 6A where the wordplay gave me Ordo. I wondered if it was another word for entrance, like adit, that I had not heard of.

    It’s interesting that the OED justifies its definition of compiler with an incorrect usage from a 1966 Maths textbook.

21. Really enjoyed today’s offering. Not too hard, with some pleasant and creative use in the cluing.

    Must admit to be surprised about the number of people who’ve not heard of Eid though. One of the major celebrations of one of the major religions. Mind you, its about the only Islamic religious service I can name (apart from the connected Ramadan)

    W

22. Excellent puzzle with clues that made me smile.

    At 40 minutes, took longer than it should have because of wrong assumptions I made early on in two or three clues. I had CORESIDENT in at 14d for some time. I also clung on to the ending of 3d being ORATING or ORATION for far too long. Finally I wanted 12a to begin ARR rather thanh have it within the answer.

    Finally, have to admit to ENGLISH TESTER whilst knowing I couldn’t really justify it.

    Definitely setter 1 [or more], me 0

    I liked OTTOWAN and WARRANTING.

23. 18 mins, got stuck on ONEIDA and wasn’t at all confident it was right. WARRANTING also held me up. I’m with the fans of 19D WHEATEN, which is my COD.

    Tom B.

24. 20 minutes, EID familiar enough as I worked in Bradford for a while and Oneida was vaguely familiar. I’m no crufts judge but I learned some time ago that those shaggy dalmations are English setters.

    Like richnorth for no good reason I was playing with the wrong half of police for a while. Isoprene from fodder and checkers.

    Last in was warranting where, even when I sussed I was looking for something with RR inside and not something beginning with B, I still took an age to see what the word was.

    1. Before it costs you a dud answer, see if you can remember that “Alsatian” and “Dalmatian” come from geographical names ending in -ia, and therefore end -atiAn even though it sounds the same as -atiOn.
25. 30 minutes for me with one careless spelling mistake. Ottowan. Also, although I have known for years that Con = study, I always thought it was a noun, a mini conservatory and not a verb. I have never heard anyone use con in conversation as a verb meaning to study.

    Is there an agreed list of link or connecting words. Words that link the definition and the wordplay?

    Regularly used words include “in”, “and”, “gets” etc. But what about “has” in 13 across, “of” in 29 across and “will have” in 2 down?

    1. There is no list – and as with other things like this, I kind of hope there never is – solving should be done with the brain, not a set of cribs.

       I can tell you that The Times allows some words in one direction only. Examples:

       • {[definition] of [wordplay]} but NOT {[wordplay] of [definition]} – such as 18 today (as well as 29)
       • {[wordplay] for [definition]} – as in 28 today, but not the other way.

       One link-word used elsewhere – with – is very rare in Times puzzles (if I said “never used” it would turn up tomorrow).

       I suspect there are some setters who wouldn’t use {[definition] has [wordplay]}, but that’s me guessing. It works better for me in 13 than 2, but one alternative – ‘s as in “Young baby’s eaten no stew” – is used quite often, as in 1D. Repeating it in 2D would be a bit dull.

       Some linkwords may depend on the clue type – for me, “and” makes good sense in a double def clue, and less sense in {[wordplay] and [def]}.

       Edited at 2010-01-21 04:05 pm (UTC)

       1. Thanks Peter. Very helpful.
    2. This is from the Germanic ‘cunnan’, to know, which also evolved into the modern ‘can’. The sense of ‘study’ or ‘learn’ developed a little later.

       Nowadays, it would be a deliberate archaism, or jocular:

       “A poet starving in a garret,
       Conning old topics like a parrot….

26. Good tip!
27. Surprised that no-one has mentioned crossword champion Mark Goodliffe’s appearance on Countdown today.

    Paul S.

    1. Found on C4’s “4oD” online service – I assume his form in the first 10 mins will be maintained. If so, a cruel twist of fate for the young lad trying to become an octochamp, suddenly faced with Mark.

       It gets a bit closer at the end …

       Edited at 2010-01-21 10:31 pm (UTC)

       1. It was mentioned on the Crossword Centre Message Board – apparently Mark lost in the end after risking DENOTER, which was turned down. Should have tried ERODENT.
          1. ERODENT would be no better – in Chambers, but not ODE, which is where Susie looks.
          2. Got the feeling that Mark had never really given the numbers games much thought and was relying on banking on the letters side. Given the points available for them, that may have been an error of judgement.

             Can someone possibly explain to me why certain verbs are deemed to “have” agent nouns and others not. Is it common usage or something more clever. Surely anything capable of being done by somebody must (almost by definition) have an agent noun.

             1. I think it’s just down to what’s actually in the dictionary (ODE). If you look up ‘hear’, you’ll find ‘hearer’. But look up ‘heap’ and there is no ‘heaper’.
28. Thanks for all the feedback — always very interesting. DFM
29. I had a bit of a problem with DESIGNER for 16a…although of course it clearly was the answer. I know that DEIGN as a verb means to condescend but I think that sticking an ER on to create the noun ‘one who condescends) is stretching it a bit. Certainly I have never heard it used like that and would tend to think of such usage as being clumsy at best. None of the online dictionaries I looked in (including Chambers and Websters) gave it as a valid word. Can anyone confirm its presence in the SOD or OED?
    1. I think the idea is the same as flower = a river. You won’t find that in the OED either.

Comments are closed.