Times 24417 – Hamlet Finished Me

41 comments on “Times 24417 – Hamlet Finished Me”

1. From the famous speech:

   For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
   The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
   The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
   The insolence of office and the spurns
   That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
   When he himself might his quietus make
   With a bare bodkin?

2. I think 21dn is BODKIN which can mean a dagger.
3. Uncle Yap,
   I also think we need SPIKE here — something you might wear on a boot to prevent falling?
4. My parsing is: EPIC containing I+SOD; an allusion to Sod’s Law, also known as Murphy’s. If something can go wrong, it will. That sort of thing.
5. Gave up after 90 minutes and resorted to aids to find 6,7,11,13 and 22. And 18, as it turned out I had it wrong having put SPORADIC. I might have stood a chance at SCAFELL PIKE if I had not wasted ages trying to find something to fit P?A?E?L.

   I’m not convinced now that 15dn works quite as well as it appeared when first solved.

   1. According to Wikepedia The Mousetrap took its name from a line in Hamlet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mousetrap

      What is the purpose of “subject” in this clue?

      1. Without knowing very much about either play (should I set the video for the BBC’s Hamlet?), “mousetrap” as the subject of one of the two seems plausible. But simply ” … take the Mickey out of play” seems an equally good clue to me.
         1. Thanks. I wondered if I was missing something. I wouldn’t have said it was the subject of the play, merely the title, and not even one thought up by its author if Wiki is to be believed.

            I’m going to record Hamlet as the TV adaptation was given a rave review on R4’s Front Row earlier this week. I do have some misgivings though because it seems the production has been redesigned for TV. I would have preferred to see a straight recording of the stage production rather than a studio-bound TV film.

            1. I don’t mind TV versions being productions for TV rather than recordings of stage versions, if the TV side adds to the drama. I’m a bit the same way about original instrument recordings of old music, wondering whether Mozart and Handel would have insisted on (e.g.) natural horns if the modern version had been available.
               1. Yes, it’s debatable, but in this case I would take the view that the production has probably only reached TV because of its popularity on stage (and its star of course!). I’d like to see what all the fuss was about, not a version that’s been adapted to another medium. Also having it recorded before a live audience would add a lot to the experience.

                  Did you see any of the performances from the Globe on TV? Richard II and another that doesn’t come to mind at the moment? They worked really well in my opinion and caught the excitement of live theatre marvellously.

                  On your point about music, where do you stand on Bach or Handel (for example) keyboard works being played on a modern piano? Back in the 30s, 40s and 50s that was all there was but then the practice fell foul of the purist brigade and it’s rarely heard now in my experience except on contemporary instruments. For my part I would happily listen to either but certainly the piano brings something to it that’s worth hearing.

                  1. Missed the Globe ones. I’m fine with the piano as an option but the harpsichord is justified because the sound is so different. Compared to old natural horns, the modern ones are just a better way of making much the same sound – the majority choice tubby sound of “securicor” horns compared to some other models is a separate issue.
                     1. I’ve remembered now that the other Globe production was Measure For Measure. It and Richard II went out live on BBC4. Both had Mark Rylance in leading roles. I find his presence on stage absolutely mesmerising; I am hoping for something similar from David Tennant and going by all the hype it should happen, but somehow I have my doubts.
6. But what’s the definition?
   Mike O, Skiathos
   1. Not “to” — ergo “fro”.
7. Hoping for a quick one today as have the usual Christmas Eve panic but had to concede defeat with only a dozen solved (not enough to bother with aids). Only point of commenting is to congratulate Uncle Yap who, if memory serves, has had a pretty raw deal since becoming a regular blogger here.
   COD of the few I solved was PRE-RAPHAELITES. Not the first time I have come across anagram indicators which end up being part of the anagram, which strikes me as being very clever and devious. Pleased with myself for seeing SOD as a lawgiver, so all is not lost.
   Puzzle goes down for the Old Spice Award, ie. least wanted present.
8. Definitely not my type of puzzle, far too loose in places for my taste so that I end up with question marks next to a number of clues. 25 minutes to solve.

   Where is the definition of OAKUM which is fundamentally rope? The STAMEN produces pollen, the insect fertilises. The clue to SCAFELL,PIKE is a logistic mess and neither MATERNITY (could be “paternity”?) LEAVE or MOUSETRAP, the cryptic definitions work for me. All rather unsatisfactory.

   Compliments of the season to everybody.

   1. 9D: If it’s “her absence”, it must be mater rather than pater.
      11: “one hand-picked” – “oakum” is often accompanied by “picking“. I’d count 15 as CD plus another def (“subject of play”), and isn’t Mickey to mouse as picking is to oakum?

      Edited at 2009-12-24 09:53 am (UTC)

   2. OED: loose fibre obtained by untwisting old rope.
   3. OED: the male fertilizing organ of a flower, typically consisting of a pollen-containing anther and a filament.
      1. With you on 22 – “this on boot” for spike could have been something like “anti-slip device”, without spoiling the story. I don’t mind the vague def as it fits the tale being told.
9. I got rather psyched out by this one and struggled home in 18:15. BODKIN took a long time to find and made me doubtful about FRO. I recognised the sound of “chondrite” from somewhere, but had forgotten the usefulness of H in filling in unexpected extra letters (as in ‘condrite’). 1A, 13 and 18 were some other sticking points.
10. ….since I got all the hard ones, but I was defeated by ‘maternity leave’, ‘protea’, and ’emote’.

    There was lots of literary stuff in here. I believe 4 across is a Sherlock Holmes allusion, and Scafell Pike was climbed by Wordsworth and Southey.

    1. Yeh, “The Speckled Band”: one of the many great Holmes short stories. I’m currently growing a couple of proteas in the garden — so not too hard here. Not much science for “Our Mutual Friend” … but he’s going to love today’s Jumbo, esp 15ac.
       My own bête noire is the cryptic def so 9dn and 21 rankled a bit.
11. Lucky with most of the gk – Speckled Band was an early Holmes for me, have not been to The Mousetrap but easily deduced, f-in-law wore 17d, chondrite from a Geology course – but protea and shamefully bodkin last in (did the wretched “play full of quotations” at school)when penny finally dropped at just under 20 mins. Agree stamen a bit iffy.
12. I thought this one was well unsatisfactory. Like Jimbo I hardly know where to start in going though my quibbles, so I’m not going to bother.

    Happy Christmas.

    K

13. Very hard, nearly 20 mins, with several quibbles (e.g. I agree with Jimbo that 22ac is a mess). Spent too long trying to fit ‘evoke’ or ‘evohe’ into 3dn, had the bizarre ‘actometre’ in at 2dn (influenced by attometre, I suppose, although that would be very short rather than very long), couldn’t see MATERNITY LEAVE (and I don’t think it makes much sense) and also struggled on BODKIN and the top right corner.
14. Very tough indeed. I had little in the grid for ages, then got 18 and eventually 5 (which I should have seen earlier). Last PDM was ‘tinned’ indicating SN as a container. After 70 minutes I still had 1 and 21 to do. I guessed BODKIN, but had forgotten the relevant lines, so didn’t really understand it. Bradfords’ was needed for 1 (looked up ‘versatile’ and saw ‘protean’). Despite my reasonable knowledge of plants, that was a new one.
    I liked some clues very much, and had some doubts about a few. My bete noire is the unjustified past tense in 7. It’s possibly justified if the word is obsolete, but not in this case. The odd thing is that the clue doesn’t need ‘had’ for the surface.
15. Done in several sessions over the course of the day. Got stuck in all of the above places but mostly the SPECKLED/CHONDRITE cross. Like Peter it took me far to long to think of the H in CONNED; I was trying to put a silent P on the front, or something. I didn’t have a clue what SPECKLED was about, or how it is supposed to work, but that’s my only minor quibble; apart from also wanting it to be finished a lot quicker than it was. I thought it all rather clever and quite liked STAMEN; not all plants need intermediary insects in the procreation process – just the clever ones (especially those whose flowers look like the female of the fertilising insect species). COD to EVER AND ANON.
    1. I agree it’s good clue to the required phrase but I’m afraid I don’t know “EVER AND ANON” so I was never going to solve it without recourse to aids.
16. I took about 45 minutes with a few interruptions – and got 2 wrong. I had Fro but changed it to Fry when I discovered the lovely rural hamlet of BYSKIN. “One could barely finish” is of course “by skin”, (by the skin of one’s teeth, even?)

    For FRY, I couldn’t really see why egg = toy but when toy “Has not to” the y was neatly derived.

    I would agree with others about some of the clues being a bit imprecise. “One hand-picked” seems insufficient for OAKUM, in my opinion. ( Oakum is a new word to me.) “Has not to” does not really define FRO, does it? And Mousetrap is not really the subject of the play of the same name. I found Scafell Pike rather tenuous too.

    I liked SN for tinned and enjoyed the suface reading of 4ac, SPECKLED BAND. COD.

17. Of course another Bodkin that could barely finish one – before moving onto another, was Dr John Bodkin Adams.
18. Around 35 minutes, with several going in “without full understanding” (our established euphemism for “didn’t have a clue, mate”). As I’m still recovering from an excess of Christmas spirit last night, I’m in no position to offer any sort of critique (and frankly, who’d care?).

    In case I don’t manage to pop in tomorrow, Merry Christmas one and all.

19. After 40 minutes and no BODKIN or SCAFELL PIKE (had the PIKE part) came here to see that I think a lot are in agreement, this wasn’t a puzzle where you could get several answers from wordplay or definition and piece the two together. Grumpy eve!
20. Every so often this setter turns up like a bad penny and we are treated to a celebration of arcane language, literary obscurities and fast and loose definitions. Found this crossword tedious and frustrating in equal measure and belonging to an age long since past. Perhaps the setter’s New Year’s resolution could involve sprinkling a few post-1930 references into his puzzles to cater for the tastes of the non Octogenarians amongst us.
    1. Post 1930s content:

       Sod’s law – first OED citation: 1970
       Protea – ancient word of course, but much better known since becoming the emblem of post-apartheid S African teams
       Maternity Leave – there’s an OED citation from about 1919 but the notion of actually having it seems post-1930 (the citation was saying it would be a good thing)
       Christie version of Mousetrap – running since 1952

       Yes, it’s a puzzle in old-fashioned style, but you might try a few of the puzzles tackled by those octogenarian solvers before getting too wound up about it.

       Edited at 2009-12-24 04:44 pm (UTC)

21. I was quite surprised by the comments above. The conclusion I come to is that in general, we just don’t like the tricky ones!
    – oakum is a rope product, only “basically rope” in the same way that a car is “basically metal and plastic.”
    – indeed a stamen is a fertiliser, plants can’t without one

    Anyway: have a great Christmas everyone, especially you setters!

22. Very tough for me, over an hour, and I needed aids to get SCAFELL PIKE. Also, one incorrect where I entered PRISON instead of ORISON, seeing ORISON as the prayer and prison as the confinememt place, I simply misread the clue. I was particularly unhappy with EMOTE, and OAKUM. However, this was very clever in many places, and shouldn’t be enough to dampen anyone’s holiday spirits. Speaking of which, best regards for the Christmas holiday to all.
23. Merry Christmas to all across the pond.
    Here’s one octogenarian who found this one difficult – Scafell Pike did me in.
24. Having decided to make an effort to post more regularly, this one went completely over my head. Thought this was an extra hard one for a special occassion, but it seems others didnt concur. Just didnt get MATERNITY LEAVE or SCAFELL PIKE at all even with checkers, and would never have got BODKIN, even with a whole day to think, since it means absolutely nothing to me. All in all a rather grumpy start to xmas – here’s hoping the jumbo is more enjoyable…..
25. Too tough a worm for this kiwi. Missed both FRO and BODKIN. But who cares, a merry christmas to all.
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