Times 24,367 – A Religious Education

Author   topicaltimPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
If I had an icon with a dunce’s cap, I’d be using it now. Solving time 11 and a half minutes, but including one guess, which turned out, upon analysis for blog purposes, to be wrong. In the context of what was a perfectly straightforward and enjoyable puzzle otherwise, I had a couple of quibbles, and didn’t like that clue at all, but then I would say that, wouldn’t I?

It is, of course, something with which the crossword editor presumably wrestles on a daily basis: where does he place the limits of what can be considered reasonable for “the average solver” to know? Human nature dictates that this mythical solver probably thinks “anything I don’t happen to know” = “too obscure”, so I shall concede my ignorance gracefully, and be prepared to admit the possibility that literally everyone except me has heard of the solution to 27 across; perhaps I just didn’t pay enough attention at Sunday school, or in comparative religion classes, or wherever else I might have picked this up.

Across
1 FILIAL – L(AIL)IF(e) rev. = “son’s”.
4 CARPETED – double def.
10 IN DECLINE – A Christmas carol would contain lines, and one of them would be an “In Dec(ember) line”.
11 DEGAS – D(raw) E.G. AS.
12 NOISOME – (MOONIES)*.
13 DRAFTEE – RAFT in DEE; in the well-known American parlance, conscription is “the draft”.
14 SIGMA – (A M GI’S) rev. to give the Greek letter (=”character from Europe”); am I missing something, as I can only see this as “A thousand (M) GI’s (i.e. draftees)” – surely a thousand can’t be several? Perhaps I am (thanks to Tom, first comment below) and it’s just AM(erican) GI’S.
15 WAFFLING – W(ith) A F(emale) FLING.
18 RESEARCH – R.E. + EAR (attention) in SCH(ool).
20 SALSA – SAL’S A.
23 STOMACH – (MOST)* + A CH(urch).
25 GOT INTO – GO(ya) + TINTO(retto).
26 ELIAS – A in ELI’S; my Biblical crossword knowledge is at least sufficient to make me look for the possibility of ELI whenever I see “priest” in a clue. Elias is the Greek version of Elijah.
27 ARMINIANS – despite my religious ignorance, I could at least see that this was an obvious homophone, so I went for ARMENIALS, which seemed like as plausible an answer as I could contrive. When I went to check, this turned out to be wrong, as it was actually this sort of Protestants I needed. At this point I was about to lament the fact that no dictionary has Arminials, just Arminians, and even if they did, the homophone surely didn’t work, before realising I had failed to eliminate all the options before answering and it’s actually “are minions”. D’oh!
28 SUNBATHE – (ASHEN BUT)* would stop you looking pale; my COD.
29 CAESAR – (A SCARE)*. Hmmm, another one of those where the meaning seems clear – if there’s a scare during labour, the mother might give birth by a Caesarean, and the result would be “Caesar” – but it doesn’t really make sense to me, because obviously not every child born this way is called a Caesar, and (assuming the reference is to the most obvious Caesar), despite the name, one thing we can be fairly certain about its derivation is that it didn’t come about because Julius Caesar was born that way…am I being a pedantic classicist (given that none of these quibbles are going to stop anyone solving the clue), or missing something obvious? Ignore the wibbling, “caesar” is simply an abbreviation for the op. itself (see jimbo below).
 
Down
1 FAIRNESS – based on two meanings of “fair”, “just” and “blonde”.
2 LADLING – LAD + LING.
3 ANCHORAGE – double def.
5 AHEAD OF THE GAME – cryptic def: for non-UK solvers, the FA is the Football Association, the governing body of the beautiful game.
6 PADUA – PAD + U(niversity) A.
7 TIGHTEN – = “Thai ten”.
8 DUSTER – (RUSTED)*.
9 SIR EDWARD HEATH – SIRED + WARD + HEAT + H(im) British Prime Minister 1970-74.
16 LUSITANIA – L(eft) + [IT + AN + I(sland)] in USA. I think this is my third blogged puzzle in a row to contain the “It” (= Italian vermouth) word…
17 CAROUSER – ROUSE in CAR: always a 50/50 ball as to whether saloon will be CAR or BAR.
19 ETONIAN – (A1 NOTE)rev. + N(ew). Not that the word has ever gone away, but it’s much more resonant when it describes half the Cabinet-in-waiting
21 LANDAUS – LAND + AUS(tralia), vehicles which can be either a horse-drawn carriage or a car.
22 ASSESS – clASSES Systematically, an unusually asymmetric hidden word.
24 AT SEA – ArTiStEwAs.

30 comments on “Times 24,367 – A Religious Education”

  1. Snap. 11 mins, but ARMENIALS at 27A. I think 14A is meant to be AM GIS = American GIs. 15A would be my COD

    Tom B.

  2. Well, I was thinking Ah! Menials but no such word as ARMENIALS in the dictionary. Thence to wiki for Armenians which helpfully says in its top line “Not to be confused with Arminianism”, the link providing that well-known theologian Jacobus Arminius, from which it is just a short hop to Ah! Minions, ergo ARMINIANS. Voila!

    Any solver not of the Arminian persuasion getting this answer without aids should seriously consider getting a life.

    Needless to say ARMINIANS last in, but otherwise finished unaided, although a bit of a struggle with inexplicable problems with WAFFLING and Sir Ted. Didn’t understand IN DECLINE.

  3. At 29A CAESAR without a capital letter means a caesarian section, so it’s quite a good clue. Unlike 10A where I’m really not keen on DEC-LINE clued as “extract from carol”. The ARMINIANS, like all the best religious groups, were fighting another religious group and have made a previous appearance.

    Overall a very easy puzzle but enjoyable puzzle solved in less than 15 minutes.

      1. You have to remember Vince that I’m very old fashioned so on-line references are not my forte. I can however offer you Chambers which states it quite clearly.
  4. 17:18 here. Most of it went in fairly quickly, but I had a few blind spots for some reason. I wanted 21D to end in UTES, could only think of SAMBA at first for the dance, took ages to work out the anagram of Moonies, didn’t understand IN DECLINE even though I put it straight in, never heard of ARMINIANS but put it in confidently after confirming a couple of crossing letters. I agree with Tim – COD 28 SUNBATHE
  5. 8:43 .. I tossed a mental coin over ARMINIANS and ‘Armenials’ (after dismissing ‘Armenians’ as too vague a homophone even by recent standards). Slightly ashamed that I hadn’t heard of this ‘soteriological’ philosophy, but I guessed right. Cluing this one with a homophone does seem unfair.

    Otherwise, some nice surfaces which I didn’t really notice until looking again this morning. COD to 17d CAROUSER for the surface and the grammatical misdirection with ‘stir’.

  6. The other problem with homophones is if you dont know the definition, it is somewhat of a guess. Luckily I plumped for ARMINIANS but it could easily have been ARMENIANS (pronounced similarly) or ARMINYANS/ARMYNIANS without changing the logic at all.

    Thought that whilst on the easier side, the cluing was a bit loose and there were a few ‘groany’ ones. Finished all but 29 in good time and then sat looking for ages with CAESAR written next to the clue but no idea why. I admit that the labour/birthing connection was the key which I missed initially, but I still think the word CAESAR on its own is a little obscure, esp since I spent 5 minutes trying to make it work from the clue and even after making the connection, was still not entirely satisfied.

  7. After making a dog’s breakfast of an equally easy puzzle yesterday, I was pleased to get this chance to redeem myself. However I too fell at the last with Armenials. It’s a pity that the wrong answer is a better homophone than the correct one
  8. Lots in without working out the wordplay but glad to find all correct at 25mins. Last in top left corner because 1a 2d and 10a did not come as I read through so began bottom right with 29a (I had one and that is what it was called at the time!) and then 5d which opened it all up. Re SA and all the other little conventional titbits, they are part of the heritage of crosswords and as likely to be in one’s GK as obscure sects, geek-speak and a welter of cultural references I never see except in this context.

  9. 22 minutes which is going some for me only to be disappointed on arrival at work to find that ARMENIALS doesn’ exist. I then plumped for ARMENIANS and didn’t investigate further. I can’t say I’m particularly bothered not to have worked out an obscure word that neither Chambers Word Wizard nor Word Matcher have heard of.
  10. I found this very easy, finishing in 15 minutes (a rare achievement for me), but I had several question marks at the end, namely 10, 14, 27, and 3 (though I guessed it must be a double definition).

    Like some others I plumped for the wrong answer to 27, having ARMENIALS and ARMINIANS in mind. I don’t really like this sort of ambiguous homophone for a relatively obscure answer, though had I given it more thought I’d have realised that ARMINIANS was a more likely derivative of a name.
    I am not keen on DEC LINE for “extract from carol?” The question mark rescues it up to a point, but it’s a pretty contrived and implausible reading. I also didn’t like the clue to 8. Even if one is prepared to accept nounal anagram indicators I don’t see anything in the clue to remotely suggest a re-arrangement of letters. This is one of the worst clues I’ve come across recently.

    1. I took the definition as “cloth” and “cleaning” as the anagram indicator. Not saying it’s right, just what I thought at the time.
      1. My reading was: take the components of rusted, i.e. R, U, S, T, E and D; and arrange these to produce something which means “cloth for cleaning”. Afraid I can’t say how regularly we’ve had “components” as an anagram indicator, but I’d be very surprised if this was the first time…
      2. I considered that also, but apart from the slightly dubious validity of “cleaning” as an anagram indicator (as opposed to, say, ‘tidying’, which does imply re-arrangement) it tells us that the wordplay is got from the defined answer, whereas it should be wordplay (X) for answer (Y).
        However I look at it I think it’s a very poor clue.
  11. I don’t know exactly how long this took me, but I don’t think I would have got much change from an hour. I couldn’t get the two long down clues until I had alsmost all checking letters, which made for heavy going, and the Armenials were of no assistance. I quite liked it in spite of them. COD to WAFFLING.
  12. 11 minutes, got lucky with the ARMINIANS who have been to visit before. Saw IN DECLINE from the definition first, similarly LUSITANIA (didn’t unravel wordplay)
  13. 15 minutes but didn’t even consider Arminians so two failures in a row.

    Last in was filial.

    Anchorage eh? Michelle shocked anyone? Anchorage

  14. Certainly on the easy side, but enjoyable. I happened to have heard of Arminius and Arminians, but only because they cropped up in a book I was reading recently. So just luck, I guess. Like George, I got IN DECLINE from def, working the wordplay out later. I’m with Jimbo and others in finding DEC LINE = “extract from carol” a bit far-fetched, but, that said, the clue doesn’t seem to have caused any of us too much difficulty.
  15. I found this a very easy puzzle apart from ARMINIANS (which is in Collins), my last entry, 18 mins. COD, SUNBATHE. Liked DEC LINE.
    1. I was another ARMENIALS – at the time I quietly complained to myself that the answer might equally be ARMENEALS, but never thought of ARMINIANS, which I should probably have done.
      I’m not convinced by the proximity of the pronounciations, particularly with an obscure-ish word, for this to warrant a homophone treatment. In fact given this, and the religious aspect, I’m surprised Jimbo hasn’t gone into meltdown 🙂 He seems to be bearing up admirably!
      1. My blog was early on and I didn’t want to start a homophone war. I thought it a very poor clue for the reasons several have given. It’s obscure and should thus be tighter clued. A homophone can always give rise to different interpretations and that’s not fair with this word. I was lucky and like some had met these odd people before but if I hadn’t I’d have been guessing – which shouldn’t be the name of the game.
  16. Easy, yes, about 15 minutes but I confess I then threw in the towel and resorted to aid for the ARMINIANS. I considered ‘are menials’, ‘are minions’ and even ‘are man jacks’, but couldn’t make a religious group/sect/cult out of any of them, so I went to Onelook. There lurked the Arminians. I’ve never heard of them, and I doubt I ever would have absent the desire to solve this puzzle. So I’ll join the ‘obscure homophone quibble’ brigade for this one. On the other hand, the rest of the puzzle was enjoyable; I liked SUNBATHE and STOMACH, and have no problem with ‘rusted components’ signaling an anagram of r,u,s,t,e,d. Regards to all.
  17. A rather too leisurely 24 min. Plumped for ARMINIANS as last in after much introspection, and was relieved to find it correct. Also lost time on CAESAR, but liked it when the penny (but not the baby in this case)dropped, so COD for me. A good Monday puzzle.
  18. Plumped for armenials and thus had one wrong in 29 minutes
    other than that spent a good 10 minuites on the salsa and landaus clues. other than that a piece of cake!
  19. Caesarian is now more commonly spelt cesarian (at least in the obstetric world of the current NHS), but a nice clue nonetheless.
  20. I get the puzzles online after 8 pm “the previous day” because of the time difference. I flew through this having taken it to bed but got stuck on ARMINIANS.
    I saw the homophone but didn’t know the about this particular group.
    The following morning I guessed it might be Arminians, Googled it and voila! there it was right on top.
    For the most part I enjoy savouring these puzzles rather than looking for a best time. Much savouring last week with a number of blank squares.
    About 20 minutes…brilliant for me…and much admiration for those of you who get them in ten minutes and under.

  21. It never occurred to me that December had anything to do with it: it seemed to be ‘Decani line’. I think the Decani and the Cantoris are the opposite sides of the choir.
  22. 11:20 in my post-holiday catch up. Safely remembered those religious types (though I couldn’t tell you anything of their beliefs). In response to Wil, Dec. and Can. are indeed abbreviations seen in various bits of church music, but not very often in carols, so December it is.

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