Times 24336 – OK, boys, time to go back to school!

Author   vinyl1Posted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Solving time: 55 minutes

Music: Chopin Mazurkas, Malcuzynski

I had most of this done in 20 minutes, and then ran into a wall. There are some clues that I am not sure are entirely fair, as you will see in my detailed comments. It would probably have helped a solver to have attended a traditional school in England, and to have paid attention in history, English, and Latin.

There was some very clever clueing here, with nearly no old chestnuts or tired cliches. I only found a couple of giveaways to get me started, and that always makes it tough.

Across
1 ANORAK, double definition, one cryptic, ‘assumed’ = ‘put on’.
4 AMERICAN, A M(ERIC)AN. Eric the Red does the lift and separate.
10- SHEERNESS, double definition using very specific knowledge for the first definition. It seemed likely enough to me, and a post-solve Google confirmed it.
12 MAESTRI, MAE + ST + R[ecording] + [S]I[belius].
13 PANDORA, P[ressure} + ANDOR[R]A. If the first woman is not Eve, we are definitely in classical territory here.
15 ISOTHERM. I’S + OTHER + M[AP]. The crossing letters may tempt you to try ‘chart’, and ‘alternative’ sure looks like an anagram indicator. Not so, as I discovered much later.
18 FLAMBEAU, anagram of A FUL[L] BEAM. The final ‘u’ should give it to you from the literal.
22 NYMPH, NY + MPH. The literal is cleverly hidden using the classical theme.
23 JAZZMAN, JAZZ + MAN, as in the chess piece. Once again, a deceptive literal. I had thought of ol’ Thelonius as soon as I read the clue, but did not realize for a long time that my first instinct was correct. I am beginning to realize that listening to your instincts is the road to faster times.
24 TWEETER, cryptic definition. Highly effective for reproducing sound above 1.5 KHz, but they didn’t cover audio engineering in Latin class.
27 IRONSIDES, double definition, both of which will be equally cryptic to most solvers. Those who paid attention in the first weeks of English history will remember that Edmund II’s nickname was Ironside, and 17th-specialists will spot the allusion to a Cromwell’s calvary troopers. All others must guess, which is what I did.
28 IDEOLOGY. Anagram of I[N] ELY GOOD, only ideology = creed is rather loose.
 
Down
1 ASSEMBLE, A(SSE)MBLE.
5 MASS PRODUCTION, a double definition that may appeal to some.
6 RUMEN, RU + MEN. I did not like ‘boyfriends’ = ‘men’, a definition by example used only to mislead – and they might not even be men.
7 CANDOUR. C(AND)OUR[T].
8 NORMAN, NO[R]MAN. At least the literary allusion is to something nearly everyone knows this time. I don’t think I’ve ever seen ‘no man’ used to clue ‘i’ or ‘ait’, however.
9 FEMININE ENDING. Double cryptic definition, in wihch ‘the close of Aida’ refers to the letter ‘a’ which terminates the nominative singular in the first declension in Latin and many dialects of Greek, although not Attic. However, pedants might object that ‘Aida’ is Arabic in origin, and they probably do things completely differently in Semitic languages.
16 HANGERS ON. H(ANGER)S[urge]ON. Nice wordplay, but ‘urge’ is put into ‘son’ so often, the idea of taking it out becomes rather obvious. I would have clued it as ‘Toadies wearing swords’.
17 PHARISEE, P(H)ARIS + E[ligibl[E]. A bit of a cliche. If you see Paris and think immediately of a Pharisee, you are a hardened solver.
19 LOZENGE. L + O[ZEN]GE, where EGO L runs upward. I tried to make ‘license’ work for a long time, hoping cen-se was a Japanese school, but my ideas were shattered by an avant-garde piano player.
24 METAL, MET + AL. This very simple clue held me up for a long time – the extra words in the surface made me think it was much fancier than it turned out to be.

43 comments on “Times 24336 – OK, boys, time to go back to school!”

  1. Can’t give a time as I did half of it over breakfast and half on a bus full of school kids. Under the half hour though. I quite enjoyed this and thought of it as something of a classic Times. As vinyl says: hardly a chestnut to be found. My COD is going to go to AIRSTREAM (3dn) for its wonderfully simple structure and (again) a “classic” misleading surface. As to Aida: I just took FEMININE ENDING to be an unstressed ending, which the final vowel is in the word “Aida”. Maybe I didn’t pay enough attention in Latin class? Sorry Sir!
  2. 50 minutes. The NW was my nemesis, having quickly penned AMENABLE (meet=fitting, in agreement?) at 1d before realising it had a spare A, and then being unable to get a start elsewhere for some time after that. Had to guess SHEERNESS & IRONSIDES from half the clue, thinking the II’s in the latter might be elevens = sides which left good old Edmund Iron for the first bit. Also with mctext & jackkt on the feminine ending, but concede other interpretations aren’t necessarily excluded. COD to 7d CANDOUR, but I quite liked the surgeon lacking drive and NORMAN. An enjoyable puzzle; I’m not averse to history lessons.
  3. 43 minutes. I was held up longest in the SW corner where I had only DJINNI, FLAMBEAU and ENDING in place for a while. 24dn METAL was my last in too. I was with mctext on the explanation of FEMININE ENDING which I think covers it adequately. Wasted time in vain trying to find anagrist at 16dn having already spotted the answer; should have moved on to another clue.
    1. And, before you had DJINNI, did you get tempted by BROTHER for 23ac — I wracked my brains for a while trying to justify “bishop” = R !!
      1. DJINNI was my first in in that corner so I never got round considering BROTHER. It works though if solving cold.

        Forgot to say I was aided at 21dn because MATADOR turned up in the ST yesterday and baffled me for ages.

        1. Hang on … BROTHER works if you can equate BOTHER with rigmarole and R with bishop. The first is understandable, but the second should be enough to stop you writing it in.
  4. 9:17 for this one. I’d count 5D as an allusive cryptic def rather than a double def – if one def is “large-scale manufacture”, the other def must be “manufacture of music for the services?”, which would break the usual rule about double duty. I wasn’t totally convinced by “Given” in the clue for 24, and would also vote for the poetry explanation at 9D, though when solving I wondered about the final notes of the opera, but (if applicable), that would be “feminine cadence”.
    1. I think just “music for the services” works as the second def in the sense of a musical production.
  5. After 3 weeks of no Times this was a joyful return to business as usual. RH side in nicely, bobbled about a bit as I know little about Aida then saw sense and the rest followed over about half an hour. Last in lozenge.
  6. I found this easy, about 15mins or so. Obviously I must have gone to the right sort of school (old joke: “Of course I went to a good school, it was Approved“)

    I don’t agree with the criticism of 5dn since “man” is frequently used by females to refer to their boyfriend, eg “Stand by your Man,” so it is neither a def. by example nor misleading..

  8. Music: Misterioso

    Might have finished this ‘Round Midnight had I not plumped in desperation for Jacobin as my monk (after getting DJINN. This made LOZENGE & METAL a tad difficult. Since Aida entombs herself with her man, I was looking for something apposite even though I just knew it had nothing to do with the opera. So 3 unsolved and 1 mistake, plus a number entered very lightly, more faint characters than at a Beatles concert. Having had much trouble as well on Saturday I am thinking of taking up a different hobby.

    1. I also struggled with Saturdays and made a wrong guess at 9 down here. It is difficult to appreciate the cleverness of clues when the setter assumes a knowledge base likely to be shared by a fairly narrow range of people.
      1. Much as I sympathise I am not sure that needing esoteric knowledge is something which we can object to. There are a number of very classy solvers on this site who never cease to amaze with the breadth of their general knowledge (as well of course of having all the other required skills). The Times Crossword will only retain its reputation by attracting the very best solvers.
        If I detect a problem occasionally it might be termed anachronistic, or socio-economic even. Someone referred me to a Times puzzle some years ago (I think a tie-breaker for Championship qualification) where just about every answer started with the letter X. In the 6 months I have been trying these things there hasn’t been too much evidence of this (I did get ratty with a certain Oxford clue recently) so I guess the editors are at least conscious of the problem. I think given time (a few years) my cruciverbal vocabulary will improve, and my parsing ability, but my general knowledge failings mean I will never reach the standard of the regulars here. I do think however that it is good to live outside of one’s comfort zone, otherwise I would just do the Telegraph and consider myself a very smart cookie indeed. Anyway, thank goodness we live in the Wiki age.
        1. Most answers starting with X: This is surely impossible – I think they’ve garbled whatever the original story was – maybe something about a Listener puzzle? The tie-breakers were called eliminators and as I entered the London regional finals every year but one from 1989 onwards, I got to try about 10 of them. They were very tough puzzles (once so discouraging that anyone with the nerve to send their solution in got through), but I don’t recall any of them having a theme.

          Good general knowledge (or simply having seen many of the strange words before) helps, but good analysis of the wordplay is just as important.

  9. 18:09 here. I found it quite tricky and seemed to be stuck for ages a couple of times, so was quite surprised to find I hadn’t gone over 20 minutes.
  10. Well, I guess this is all my fault for raising a “cold solve” possibility. Natch: I didn’t write it in. After reading the responses, I looked into the Mac Thesaurus and found this under “rigmarole”:

    the rigmarole of dressing up: fuss, bother, trouble, palaver, ado, pother, song and dance, performance, to-do, pantomime, hassle, folderol.

    But the “bishop” = R is out of the question, even if there’s the RR alternative.
    PB will know more about CofE titles than I do; but R alone must surely be out of the question!

    As the actress said: I can do without the Bishop being Right!

      1. If you get a paid account, they let you edit as long as you do so before anyone has replied to you.
  11. did anyone else read it in 1ac as i.t.? i thought this was an excellent puzzle though i needed a little help with 9 and 23. small quibble i dont see why zen should be specifically japanese.
    1. I’m sure it’s “Japanese” because Collins and COED both call Zen a Japanese school of Buddhism. Chambers has “orig. Japanese”. The wiki article suggests that the truth is more complicated, though the section about Zen in the West shows that this may be more Japanese-influenced than in the East.
  12. Yes, I wouldn’t have had any problem with “bother” for “rigmarole” but I just hadn’t thought through “R” = “bishop” properly and in my haste may even have muddled up the abbreviations used in chess. In any case I believe there are conventions regarding single letter abbreviations that only certain ones are allowed in the Times though I’ve never seen a definitive list.

    On another matter I think “feminine ending” would be okay with reference to the end of Aida, the opera itself (if applicable) as it’s in common use in musical circles and it’s in Chambers.

  13. 25 minutes, about 10 of it staring at SHEERNESS with a question mark and then -E-I-I-E ENDING until that penny dropped. Also didn’t know IRONSIDES, but could be guessed from the checking letters. Tricky start to the week.
  14. Just under 48 mins. Quite pleased to have finished without resorting to aids.

    5d was first in, which led to me finishing the right-hand side quite quickly, but then the remainder was a hard-fought struggle, particularly the SW corner. I didn’t understand LOZENGE before coming here, and it took a long time to spot the Monk piece of misdirection. I eventually finished with 24, 23 & 9 the last ones in.

    Like Jackkt, I was also helped by having come across MATADOR yesterday (although I thought the ST definition of ‘slaughterer’ was a little harsh – clearly the setter was not a bullfighting fan!)

    Nothing particularly stood out for COD, but I think I’ll go for ISOTHERM.

  15. 29 minutes or so to get everything but the FEMININE of 9d. And no amount of staring at it got me there. Seeing the answer here, I’m still less than convinced.

    Somehow, this just felt like hard work.

  16. Much the same problems as everybody else. Reasonably enjoyable to solve without being anything special. 25 minutes to finish a puzzle where knowledge gained from previous puzzles helped enormously (my school years were devoted to maths and sciences not obscure kings). One of the answers appeared in Sunday’s Mephisto – a very long odds coincidence.
  18. 25 minutes and like others I was completely becalmed for a while in the middle.

    Guessed at ironsides, had a QM next to men in 6d and took a flyer on 9 based on heroine having a feminine ending “ine” (cf hero) and the eponymous heroine of the opera (of which I know nought) probably snuffing it at the end.

    No standout clues for me.

  20. JAZZMAN: Are both ‘definition by examples’ excused by the question mark at the end?

    FEMININE ENDING: I agree this is a bit weak – words don’t really ‘suffer’ their endings, and was Aida’s death really ‘feminine’ other than because she was female?

    1. In JAZZMAN (23ac) the first one, Monk, is inexcusable (as is West in 12ac) but the second one, presumably ‘bishop?’, seems OK to me because of the question mark. It’s surely far worse to have a d by e when it’s of the answer.

      Pity about these blemishes in an otherwise excellent puzzle.

      1. Agreed entirely. I find my stance on unindicated definition by example hardens each time it crops up.
      2. Count me in with the objectors as well. In my haste forgot to comment in my original entry.
    2. FEMININE ENDING – surely it’s much simpler than this? ‘What the heroine suffered’ is a feminine ending, ie the death of a woman; and the ‘a’ at the end of Aida is simply the usual ending of feminine nouns in Latin, just as ‘us’ is a masculine ending.
  21. This was one of those puzzles that flatters to deceive. You think that you are going to need lots of obscure knowledge to solve it but then it turns out to be fairly simple. The only word I did not know was Rumen and, for a time I had Ruman until I noticed the lack of an apostrophe in boyfriends. I can forgive the DBE for Monk since it gave the opportunity to mention the wonderful Thelonius Sphere. The composer of Epistrophe and Crepuscule with Nelly ought to have been a crossword fan.

    I agree that the Aida clue is weak but the mention of feminine endings does give me the opportunity to mention my rule of thumb for distinguishing between musicals and operas. If it ends with the hero dying, it’s a musical. If it ends with the heroine dying, it’s an opera

  22. I should have said that I enjoyed the puzzle otherwise, rather than just carping!

    I find Thelonius to be excellent rhyming slang for one over the eight.

  23. About 35 minutes, held up like others in the SW, but also by FEMININE ENDING, my last entry that took me, obviously, a while to see. Enjoyed the puzzle, a good bit. I didn’t know anorak=nerd, or RUMEN, but guessed. Regards.
  24. A slow 32 min, even with a couple of online assists. Never felt really on top of this, and got mired in the NE because I whacked in AMUNDSEN at 4 ac with the M and final N in place. This did NOT help. Perhaps there is another way of looking at FEMININE ENDING: The -ine of “heroine” is doubly a feminine ending (poetic and semantic) and a third incarnation in the eponymous ones death in Aida, so maybe not so shabby? No particular COD (unless 9 dn after all).

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