Times 24,217 Do You Come Here Orphan?

54 comments on “Times 24,217 Do You Come Here Orphan?”

1. 15:55, 1 wrong

   Not thinking well this morning. The mistake was DROP rather than CROP at 25 – close, but the “yield” meaning isn’t quite there.

   Last few answers: 18, 14, 11, 20, 24, 8, 6. At 8 I was looking for something like the operator of a linotype machine.

   1. Whoops, I had DROP as well. I agree CROP is obviously what is wanted but I think you can almost justify DROP. I saw it in the sense of “to fall exhausted or wounded” – a combatant who drops is yielding to his opponent. (Well, I said “almost”!)
      1. I had CROP. Why does the clue one misses out always turn out to be one that causes some discussion?
         1. Because when you’re in the happy position of seeing the right answer straight away you don’t consider the linguistic contortions that others are going to go through in futile attempts to justify their wrong answer!
2. 40mins today. I enjoyed this one – enough to make you think without being too tough to fit in at lunchtime. I got held up for a while at 1ac trying to use Pall Mall as the street.

   (My contributions may be a bit scarce for a while – I have lost home internet access while VOIP is being installed so I am dependent on office access.)

3. I think I am similar era to dorsetjimbo and grandmothers were stern, not indulgent, in my youth. Fast lh side, slowed down, final clues 6a & 8d at 25 mins. Nice solve, seeing wordplay as I went for once.
   1. Quite – spare the rod and spoil the child was very much the order of the day. However, Collins defines it as “indulgent” and that’s what counts.
      1. I was all set to quibble over GRANDMOTHERLY = indulgent, but if, as you say, Jimbo, it’s in Collins, I guess it’s a fair cop. One begins to see why The Times likes Collins so much: so many of its definitions seem to be peculiar to that dictionary. My Chambers definition of “grandmotherly” – “over-anxious, fussy” – seems to me much nearer the mark in the language as she is spoke. But there you go. I wonder whether the setter had you in mind, Jimbo, when he/she (are there any women setters?)cleverly pre-empted objections to the ORPHAN/often homophone at 24ac by having “reported by some” in the clue. Contrary to what rosselliot says below, the pronunciation of “often” as “orphan”, or something very like it, is quite common among old-fashioned upper-crust types who also make a noise resembling “crors” and “lorst” when saying “cross” and “lost”.

         I was interrupted in the middle of doing this puzzle, so no accurate time, but probably about 40 mins. However, I had DROP instead of CROP (clearly the right answer) at 25dn. At least I was in excellent company!

         1. I certainly seem to get my fair share of weird ones. I recall “sandpiper” as a homophone for “sandpaper” in one of my blogs.

            It’s no secret I don’t like them because I think a lot of them are unfair to a majority of solvers. As others have said this one is very 1930s upper crust and thus a complete nonsense to most of us. For me qualifying it simply means the setter knows he/she is on shaky ground and is no excuse.

4. About 15 minutes for all but 24A. Half an hour later I still couldn’t think of a word to fit, for some reason thinking it had to end in -ION. In the end I looked it up on Quinapalus.com and gave myself a hefty kick up the backside!
5. 14:55 with one error (DROP for CROP at 25dn).  At first I thought I was in for a very quick solve, but I stalled about two-thirds of the way through, and at the end it took me a few minutes to get the unusual word ORPHANHOOD (24ac).

   I’m bemused by the second definition in 6ac (BECK).  Collins is the only dictionary to claim that a BECK is “esp. a swiftly flowing” stream, and I’ve never thought of it as such.  (I’m assuming that the perhaps-indicator “?” is meant to attach to “Wave”, a BECK being any beckoning gesture; but I may be wrong, as “emperor” for MOTH in 11dn shows that the setter isn’t fussy about false generalization.)

   Clues of the Day: 18ac (NUTHATCH), 17dn (SCAPULAR), and 19dn (TREMBLE).

   1. The following note on BECK from the OED is interesting.

      ” 1. A brook or stream: the ordinary name in those parts of England from Lincolnshire to Cumbria which were occupied by the Danes and Norwegians; hence, often used spec. in literature to connote a brook with stony bed, or rugged course, such as are those of the north country. “

      So the “fast-flowing” implication is just a result of the physical geography of the region in which the word is used.

6. Just wasn’t with it, and used the aids to come in at a sluggish 31 min. Toyed with DROP for 25 dn before entering CROP. I am a part time nut orchardist, and our annual nut drop is most certainly our nut yield. I would contend that on that basis DROP should be acceptable.
   The homophonetic purists will no doubt make hay with 24 Ac. ORPHAN sounds like OFTEN? I think not! COD? No stand-outs, but would settle for 17 dn: SCAPULAR.
7. Most of this went in quite easily in under 30 minutes but then I was caught by the sting in its tail and probably spent another half hour off and on trying to work out the last two or three. The ones that gave me trouble were:

   6ac – after a quick glance I thought the answer was hidden (i.e. VEIN) and unfortunately I wrote this in leading to additional problems at 8dn. But even after realising that it was wrong I couldn’t think of an alternative until I had both checking letters in place.

   8dn – this was quite difficult enough without trying to make it start N _ Y.

   11dn – I didn’t see all of the wordplay at first, nor the correct definition for that matter, and had bunged in GRANDFATHERLY thinking FAT might = indulgent and this led to problems working out 20ac.

   20ac – I wasted ages trying to get _ A _ P L? E to work.

   So my lesson learnt today ought to be to work out ALL the wordplay before writing an answer in, but how am I going to improve my times unless I take the occasional risk? I know I shall probably never match the hares but I would be satisfied if I could complete within 30 minutes most days. At the moment this seems to be the exception.

   I’m a bit surprised that no-one has protested at being expected to know the name of Charles Lamb’s dog. It’s not even mentioned on his Wiki page.

   1. Jack, I don’t personally think there’s any great virtue in trying to speed up by guessing until you can solve the puzzle in say 20 minutes every day without guessing. The real sprinters may like to express an opinion on that. Faced many years ago with your dilemma I opted for steady paced enjoyment and accuracy rather than the sort of frustration you describe. The fact that you finish the puzzle every day already puts marks you out as a good solver.
   2. I didn’t mind too much about Lamb’s dog (1dn) because the crossing clues were easy enough and “Liveliness” (D.S.) is an easy enough non-cryptic clue – but you’re right, it is obscure.  I believe Lamb used to be taught in schools as a paragon of English prose style; I don’t know how long ago that stopped, but I doubt many people of my age have ever read him.

      If it’s any consolation, I wrote in GRANDFATHERLY at 11dn too – it was actually 24ac (ORPHANHOOD) that made me check the wordplay, even though the crossing letter H was correct.  You do have to cut some corners to get an exceptionally fast time, but if your aim is to finish within 30 minutes I think you’d be better off being cautious.  Careless entries can cost minutes, and all for the sake of shaving off a few seconds.

   3. Just possibly people are remembering another “Dash” – one of Queen Victoria’s dogs. It seems that another Dash was an early US “First Dog.”

      Jimbo’s suggestion seems about right. I’d advise against any guessing on 4-letter words without both checking letters, and that probably extends up to about 7-letter words. In the long answers, even two or three checkers can eliminate most of the choices. You should also watch out for choices like mother/father as a component for 11. From the def, either seemed quite plausible. At this point you might pencil A/O in the checking square for 20A and see which works. The only guessing I can recall today was: 12A – didn’t stop to check that (oil in far)* = ALIFORNI, 29 – completed from all or most checking letters and the def, maybe a whiff of the wordplay. 3D guessed from def., initial Y?A? and word-lengths. And of course, 29D was an over-hasty choice from about 1.5 definitions. So all but one guesses were on long entries, and 29D is the exception that proves the rule!

8. I found the Beck/Keyboarder intersection very difficult, then, finally, I had a long think about the name of Charles Lamb’s dog before deciding it had to be Dash. Jimbo describes it as an old friend but it is a new one to me. On Googling, later, I discovered that Lamb acquired the dog from today’s poet, Thomas Hood. It’s a good job the setter was not tempted to link the clues.

   Having got 1 down, I quite forgot my mental note to go back and check alternative answers in the opposite corner, and, yes, I had Drop. At least I’m in good company today.

   1. That was me
9. ….with the crossword editors. Surely they could try something else.

   About 70 minutes for me, but I had ‘drop’. In my opinion, it fits nearly as well as ‘crop’. I made very little progress in 30 minutes, filled in nearly everything in the next 10, and then struggled with the SE corner. ‘Couple’ was last to go in, although I had long suspected the slang meaning of ‘item’.

   COD is 13, so nicely concealed.

10. The “orffan” pronunciation was common ever-so-posh-speak in the pre-war years, like Cuvventry for Coventry.
    1. Coventry is, in fact, Cuvventry – the name derives from three witches covens (cuvvens)
11. 15 minutes, and no mistakes so feeling pretty chuffed! Struggled with GRANDMOTHERLY and ORPHANHOOD, and COUPLE was last in. Nice to have a competitive time after a duff week!
    Oli
12. 12 mins, KEYBOARDER was last in. Clear COD for me is 18A: perfect surface and taut wordplay, just the way I like ’em.

    Tom B.

13. About 40 mins for me. I managed to avoid the drop at 25d and have memorised as many of the 637 words for running water in the British Isles as I am able, so beck also came readily; that and the fact that I have a genealogical connection with Kirkcambeck by marriage. I can verify by personal observation that Cam beck does indeed flow swiftly.

    I was one of the generation that was force fed Lamb for a time, until a sudden mid-term curriculum change saw him disappear overnight. I am pleased to hear he has acquired a dog in the interim.

    As for the crossword, some fine surfaces and general chicanery. Hard to pick but my COD is DILLY-DALLY.

14. 38 minutes, only hindered by my hasty PEP for 13ac, that only became untenable when nothing else would fit 8d. I don’t usually get involved in these arguments, but regarding 24ac – on what planet does ORPHAN sound like OFTEN? I would guess that for 99.9% of the country, it doesn’t… COD 19d.
15. Failed after carelessly putting in ‘magotty’ at 10a and thus never getting 7d.

    A really easy left-hand side, but a few clues in here felt like the wrong kind of difficult. I find I’m becoming less and less patient with homophones that require a ‘by some’ type qualification. Sure there are some people for whom ‘orphan’ sounds like ‘often’, but then there are some people for whom Gareth Gates sounds like Pavarotti and Gordon Brown running the world sounds like a good idea. There’s no earthly reason why the notion should ever occur to the rest of us.

16. Not only did I have drop for 25, I also went for grandfatherly at 11 (was Emperor Fath in Star Wars VII?) which made 20 impossible. There’s a lesson there – I just bunged in “sample” in sheer desperation. Should’ve gone back and checked the crossing letters. In my defence the emperor/moth tie-up is definition by example isn’t it?

    Not happy with the dash clue. Is the lamb rubbish really the best the setter could come up with? And as for often/orphan, I’ve never moaned about a homophone before but that’s just unbelievable.

    1. To be fair to the setter, the clue does say “reported by some”, but the only time I’ve heard anyone pronounce ‘often’ as ‘orphan’ is in caricatures in TV/radio sketches.

       Didn’t mean to be anon in the other message

       1. I appreciate that but it’s stretching a point when “some” refers to three people in Hertfordshire as opposed to all of Lancashire or half of Scotland.
          1. I believe there were thousands of characters in Charles Dickens who would have pronounced it ‘orphan’ – the same ones who addressed the justice of the peace as ‘your washup’.

             I think there is a technical term for it in phonology, but I can’t remember what.

          2. Basically I agree with you. One might say it’s an “offal” clue.
    2. To be fair to the setter, the clue does say “reported by some”, but the only time I’ve heard anyone pronounce ‘often’ as ‘orphan’ is in caricatures in TV/radio sketches.
17. ANONYM no longer (ex New Boy – now scrapping L plate as into 3rd week). Difficult to finish and failed with below (not as difficult as setting up this live journal account).
    ANONYM = confidence drainer for beginner.
    Often ain’t pronounced orphan sarf of the river.
    Grandmotherly defined as indulgent means I now have to buy Collins as well as COED (11th Ed).
    Did get CROP though but.
    1. Welcome Barry. Don’t worry about ANONYM, almost nobody gets it the first time they see it. But you have now learned about the Japanese NO and the other Corporal besides Bonaparte. Next time you’ll just nonchalantly write them in!
       1. Don’t know if this reply function works but here goes. Thanks Jimbo for the welcome and thanks to you and the other regular bloggers for all your tips without which I would still be completely gobsmacked. The picture incidentally is me wearing my retirement present at my leaving-do.
    2. I’d try to resist buying another dictionary. Collins has some whacky defs but they mostly seem guessable. COED has the emperor moth which is the trickiest part of the wordplay.
18. Welcome Barry, the shirt is quite stylish.

    About 40 minutes for me, with the ‘stream’ meaning of BECK being new to me. The 6/8 crossers were my last entry, BECK being the final guess after a mental walk through the alphabet. My minor quibble is with 14D, insofar as I usually think of CANNELLONI as stuffed crespelle, an Italian crepe, and thus, not pasta at all. A filled tube of pasta is manicotti, is it not? Clearly this doesn’t hinder solving, and I didn’t check any dictionaries (except for BECK), but when all of you, from various places around the world, order cannelloni in a restaurant, what do you expect to be served?

    1. In the UK I’d expect to get tubes or maybe rolled pasta sheets, with complete confidence. Having been to Italy several times and not noticed a difference, I think the same applies there.
    2. Hi Kevin. The dictionaries define both cannelloni and manicotti as pasta tubes filled with meat or cheese.
    3. The cannelloni I know (because that’s what’s sold ready-made in UK supermarkets) is a rolled sheet of pasta stuffed with a savoury filling. I’ve never orderd it in a restaurant though.
    4. cannelloni is a sqare of pasta that can be rolled into a tube (sometimes crespelle are substituted), manicotti is a preshaped tube.
       1. Thank you for all that replying. In my corner of the world, ‘cannelloni’ on the menu has always yielded the stuffed crepe tube. Once I saw ‘stuffed crespelle’ on a menu in NYC, which guaranteed the crepe also. ‘Manicotti’ gets you a pasta tube. All are baked and served in a sauce. When well prepared, the crespelle/crepe version is really a wonderful dish. I’m making myself hungry. Regards to all.
19. So far, everyone has apparently understood what the setter meant here. One part of this selective sounds-like is often sounding like “offen”, which is in all the dictionaries and not at all surprising. The off=”orff” part seems a pretty routine caricature of posh speech as in Princess Anne’s “naff orff” to journalists a couple of decades ago.

    Jimbo’s “sandpiper” is certainly a feature of past written representations of Cockney, like the v/w confusion from Dickens Cockneys – “werry ‘umble” and so on.

    1. >So far, everyone has apparently understood what the setter meant here

       Ah yes, but how many arrived there by reverse engineering having got the answer from definition/checkers rather than spotting the so-called homophone to solve the clue?

       Me for one.

       1. I hesitate to enter the fray on behalf of a bad homonym, but I will confess that when facing O???A?H???, I thought, “Good grief, do they mean ‘orphan’ sounds like ‘often’? That’s awful. HOOD is a poet though. That must be it. They must talk funny over there.”
          I was completely unaware of the upper crust tendency to add the ‘arr’ sound since, well, I’m not English.
       2. Possibly none, but it’s a crossword puzzle, so help from checking letters is expected for some clues. And getting the answer from the definition first is perfectly valid. Apart from 11D’s parental choice, the checkers here all came from gettable clues. If that’s part of the setter’s plan for us and it works, why not applaud that as well as or instead of grumbling about the “dodgy” homophone?
       3. Me too, Penfold – and before I got the answer I kept thinking I must have parsed the clue wrongly, because the only homophones for “often” I could think of began with OF(F) and OPH.  Mind you, it didn’t help that I didn’t know Thomas HOOD.
          1. It helps with the orphan/often thing if you know The Pirates of Penzance!
             Ann H
20. Awesome… next time I go to an Italean restorant I’m ordering CANNILLONI like I have on my crossword. Doofus.
21. Got the answer to 14 down, because of ‘girl’ and the main clue, but where is the cathedral? I’m missing something obvious, I expect.
    1. It’s part of “cathedral cleric” – canons normally belong to cathedrals.
22. ?
23. Cringed at Orphan = Often in 24a but it is perfectly fairly clued as “frequently reported by some”.

    There are 3 left out:
    13a Double dose of energy and self-esteem (3)
    E GO

    23a Stretch out story (3)
    LIE

    25d Reduce yield (4)
    CROP. Except that I put in DROP (wrongly). Doh!

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