Times 24,213

Author   richardvgPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic

Solving time: 5:38

Being so late doing the puzzle, I decided to make a start on the tube platform, as the indicator said there was six minutes until the next train. And I finished it as the train was arriving. I think this is my fastest time since I started blogging, which is also when I started recording my times accurately.

Obviously no real hold-ups. There are no unfamiliar words in the grid. Though I always think of ERICA as a crossword word. In the wordplay, at 23 LIAS is not so common; and LAVE (in 24), and INGLES (in 22) are a bit old-fashioned. Non-UK solvers may be unfamiliar with the North Yorkshire town of Settle (in 28).

I filled in quite a few on the basis of definition and crossing letters. This included 13 (PRECIPITATE), 16 (TOLUENE), 22 (MEANINGLESS), 27 (CHEVALIER), 8 (TATTERED) and 9 (METROPOLITAN). All long enough to feel safe about, and all reasonably quickly worked out after the clock was stopped. But it took me ages to see the wordplay for 12 (EGG).

Across

1 C(HER)RY
4 IMP(R)UDENT
11 S A’INT
13 EGG = {(FAB ER GE) with G(ood) replacing marvelous (FAB) queen (ER)}(all reversed)
14 CONDOR – hidden
16 TO(LUE)NE, LUE being (f)UEL*
20 P + ODIUM
22 MEAN INGLES + S
25 PIP – two meanings
26 T(RIP)E
27 CHE(VALI(d))ER
28 RE SETTLE
29 GENEVA, (A(rea) V(ery) E N(ew) E.G.)(all rev)

Down

1 CU (D) GEL
2 E.G. RE(li)GIOUS
3 RE(C)AP
5 MEPHISTOPHELES – (THE HOPELESS IMP)*
6 UNSKILLED – (SULLEN KID)*
7 ER(1 C)A
8 T + (m)ATTERED
9 MET(ropolitan) (m)E(n) (n)O(w) (a)R(e) (n)O(t) LOGICAL
15 DI + F, F + I + DENT
17 EQUIP + O,I,S,E (initial letters)
18 PROMPTER, ie PROMMER with P(ar)T replacing the second M
21 S(PART)A – “Laconic” carefully positioned as the first word to conceal the initial capital letter
23 A + LIAS
24 S + LAVE

56 comments on “Times 24,213”

  1. I would expect some very quick times for this. I was 15 mins for all except 14 ac which I took another 3 mins to see! I generally note that if a word is obviously not there for its meaning, it must be there for its letters. “Ornithologist” can really only clue “twitcher” or “bird-watcher” but I completely failed to follow my own rule!

    2ac – Peter, I think you jumped the gun yesterday about the Times not using 51 = LI?!

    Not a lot to write home about here.

  2. 15 minute stroll in the park. CONDOR is a well constructed hidden word at 14A. The words “want to” aren’t needed in 15D DIFFIDENT. Nothing much else to say.
  3. Eight minutes and change for me. I have been under ten minutes once before, years and years ago by an incredible fluke, but I’m pretty sure this is my fastest ever completion.

    I, too, had the “incredibly obvious” CONDOR left until last and lost half a minute to general panic when I couldn’t spot it. I’ve now reached the point where, if I don’t get off to a flying start, I begin to worry about not posting a really quick competitive time, and that in itself will stop me thinking straight and slow me down! If I can get past this “competition nerves” syndrome, I might be able to think seriously about Cheltenham – except that I won’t be able to afford it this year, because of:-

    Personal news: I’m moving house. The council have given us a bungalow due to my partner’s near-total inability to walk (it only took them three years to admit that living up three flights of stairs wasn’t helping.) So now, until I can sell my 3rd-floor flat, I’m paying both rent and mortgage. Anyone want to move to Sheffield?

    1. Well done!  It’s a shame you can’t make it to Cheltenham.  I do think they should make the championship both cheaper and more accessible.  The total entry fee of £25 is extortionate, and Cheltenham is a bugger to get to, especially on a Sunday.  I’m sure they’d get more entrants if they improved at least one of the fee, the location and the day.
    2. Ditto to all Mark says. I got hopeful when the SuDoku champs moved from Gloucestershire academia to London academia (Inst. of Ed.) – maybe next year. I think the Times are still clinging to the idea that you can make meaningful links between a xwd race and a literary festival. Joining the game geeks at the Mind Sports Olympiad (late 90s) made more sense.

      Not much to do about the comp nerves (even Mark G gets some) except to remember the times when you start slowly but then catch up later – or the ones where you rip through part of the grid and then come to a halt.

  4. Count me as another who got the hidden word last, breaking my own maxim that, if a clue makes no sense at all, the answer must be a hidden word.
    Like yesterday, this was another day for carefully ticking off the letters of the anagram to get the correct one of the several variants on the devil’s name.
    I initially had Egdon at 7 on the grounds that Heath is always Egdon in crosswords. It even has eon as a container but I soon had to abandon it because I could not explain away the conservative.
    I only got Sparta because, the last time laconic occurred in this puzzle, a couple of months ago, I looked it up and discovered that the Laconians were Spartans.
    I quite liked the Fabergé clue, despite the fact that the answer could hardly be anything else, it took me a long time to justify it.
  5. Yes, 2dn of course, thanks. The picture is the elusive condor, just to illustrate my embarrassment.
  6. 45 mins which is good for me. I thought it was going to be under 30mins after dashing through the top half, but got bogged down on 22 and 17.
  7. 7:45 with hidden word last – which to me always counts as a feather in the setter’s cap. Penalty slap for not seeing 4A immediately. I enjoyed working out 12, 16 and 22, though after the event. “MEANINGLESS TRIPE” in the grid seems maybe more than a fluke, though I hesitate to guess why it’s there.

    28A may be tricky for overseas solvers, but I think the town’s been used before – any offers to beat Settle, Leeds and Ripon as the Yorks towns “golden triangle” for xwd solvers? I’m taking the mickey out of tourist boards here (Not out of Yorkshire – wouldn’t dare!) – at least Iceland, Russia and Rajasthan (India) have “golden triangles” of must-sees, though Rajasthan was upping the ante to a “golden quadrilateral” on road signs when we went in about 2002.

    kurihan’s point about “not there for its meaning” is well worth a ponder. Another side of the same coin is “Why ‘ornithologist’ and not ‘bird-watcher’?”. Disguising the “content” stuff where it’s needed must be a prime skill of good setters. In this case, second=S must have entered some heads, which is “false content”. There’s also the pronunciation difference between “cond” in “second” and “condor”.

    1. The hidden word was my last, too, but I think the disguise is enhanced by the constituent parts being on different lines (in the print version, at least). I imagine setters try to engineer that, too, and deserve plaudits when they succeed.
  8. 7:21.  I would have said this was a curate’s egg, but lennyco has beaten me to it.

    I don’t see how 20ac (“Disgust meet’s politician’s initial platform” = P + ODIUM) works.  My best guess is that “meet’s” is a typo for “meets”.

    Clues of the Day: 10ac (DIRT CHEAP), 5dn (MEPHISTOPHELES), 24dn (SLAVE).

    1. Well spotted. I am sure you are right that “meet’s” in 20A is simply a typo . And I can’t see any other clue from which it might have migrated.
  9. How much trouble was going to be caused by 14a. I got everything bar this in about 9 minutes and then couldn’t get it at all until coming on here. I’ll be needing the biggest pair of self-kickers available.
    Although relatively easy, I quite enjoyed this one and thought 12a was brilliant.
  10. Enjoyed this, though when I settled in to start solving I was instantly barraged with text messages and people at the door, so didn’t get a time. I echo the greatness of the hidden word as well as the clues to EQUIPOISE and EGREGIOUS
  11. 36 mins for me, without any aides, which is not far off my record of about 25. Anything under 45 I consider a good time.

    14 was one of my last ones in, although 15 had that honour. I’ve started following the tip often given here of not stopping to fully explain the wordplay before moving on, and I’m sure that saved me some time. Certainly 12, 21 & 27 all went in this way.

  12. I’ve never heard of “lias” except in one place. In Terry Pratchett’s “Discworld” fantasy series, all the trolls invariably have names relating to stone, rock, or other minerals. One such is called Lias Bluestone.
    1. There’s a pub called the Blue Lias on the Grand Union Canal, not far from where I live. It’s named after the locally quarried limestone. No literary knowledge required, you just have to live in the right area!
      1. Knew about lias, from xwds probably, but wrongly thought it belonged with some other rocky stuff – sial (the one I actually remembered), sima and nife which are all parts of the earth’s mantle, core or crust, named from the elements in them. [No need to tell me if the notion of rock made of Lithium and Arsenic is scientifically ridiculous.]
  13. 39 minutes, so not that quick. But very good, I thought.

    I completely failed to spot the hidden word, but the answer couldn’t really be anything else, despite all my attempts at SO_D_R.

    The town in 22ac was new to me…

    I also got myself into a state in the SE corner, by jotting in EQUIPPING despite the lack of appropriate wordplay, with the blithe assumption that it couldn’t be anything else.

    COD 22ac, with 11ac a close runner up.

  14. Never saw this. I saw something else. Second = S, ornithologist = ODDIE. So I had a wonderfully obscure bird called a SODDIE. This worked perfectly, because I mis-spelt that long word at 9D.

    Otherwise a breeze

      1. You just beat me to it, Pete. Can you explain why the jumbo from April 18th included – Hard work bringing joint success for John and Olivia? (5,6) – Surely these are living people.
    2. I believe the Times disallows any references to living people, with the single exception of the queen (ER), so Bill Oddie could be eliminated on that rule alone. Having said that, I did notice a recent jumbo that referred to John Travolta & Olivia Newton-John, so maybe it’s not as cast in stone as I thought.
      1. You could even argue that ER refers to the first Queen Elizabeth, though I think you’re right that the editors allow that single exception. I can only assume that the editor’s guidelines for the Jumbo are somewhat different.

        I believe the rule is a safety-net of the “dead people cannot be libelled” variety; if you don’t mention a living person in a cryptic clue, they cannot sue you because they believe the surface reading to be defamatory. If you do, they might, and no matter how frivolous and wasteful the suit would be, you’d still have to pay lawyers to defend it. I’ve constructed clever (at least to my mind!) clues before that relied on apparently insulting a famous person, but I would not dare to use them publicly.

        1. I don’t know of any difference in rules for the Jumbo, except that themes seem to be allowed rather more often – e.g. all 6 Jane Austen novels once, song titles from a band (REM?) that were words or phrases with other meanings.

          Female cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova made a premature appearance a few Saturdays ago, and that was apparently a mistake by at least the editor. My guess is that he either had a “pop culture knowledge failure” on this one or decided that “joint success” couldn’t be libel.

          There is another possible reason for the rule – unfortunate coincidences. This story isn’t quite a match, but in July 1990, the Telegraph puzzle had the clue: Outcry at Tory assassination (4,6) = BLUE MURDER. It appeared the day after Tory MP Ian Gow was killed by the IRA. So at least at the Telegraph, the next day’s puzzle and solution are checked against an evening news bulletin.

          1. Can anyone pinpoint the ‘song titles’ Jumbo which Peter refers to? I seem to have missed this one, and REM are one of my favourite bands (I did note the query that it may not be them).

            Paul S.

            1. My best efforts at Google searches aren’t finding it. I’ve e-mailed talbinho who I’m about 90% sure wrote the report.
            2. My memory is not as bad as I feared – right band, right blogger. it’s here – and now added to Memories / Themes and Ninas for easier location next time. Thanks talbinho for a speedy answer.
  15. 21 minutes, slowed by equipoise, Geneva and Sparta in the SE (condor was last in before those 3).

    I still can’t see where 12 comes from so I await enlightenment.

    Lias and erica were new to me.

    1ac rock, Cherry Chevalier, who used to play the spoons for her brother Maurice.

  16. 13:28 .. EQUIPOISE and GENEVA were my last in, and main causes of delay. Otherwise, an enjoyable breeze with many nice surfaces. I did like the anagrams at 5d and 6d, the sullen kid and the devil. Like markthakker I had a ‘!’ against 20a for what seems to be a typo.
  17. Not particularly quick, but I may have been distracted by “The Wheels on the Bus” and tunes of similar ilk played loudly to a cavorting grandchild (no connection to either 5d or 6d, I hasten to add). I spotted CONDOR reasonably quickly, but not after considering SODDIE as well. A Southern Noddie? Not particularly likely. Held up inordinately by the long down clues, I’m almost ashamed to admit, and by thinking at least one of the rashes had to be impetigo or at least eczema. Last in was the EQUIPOISE and CHEVALIER crossing.
  18. Oh dear, was it really that easy? I’m afraid I didn’t find it so. I was going well but then my train was cancelled without notice and I continued with the puzzle but was probably not concentrating too well. I finished it in 50 minutes. CONDOR was 3rd from last solved.
  19. This is the first crossword I’ve tackled in… well, it feels like weeks, and I’m definitely rusty. No solving time as I didn’t finish, the SE corner remaining pretty much blank.

    My first significant breakthrough was the anag at 5D; MEPHISTOPHELES / THE HOPELESS IMP being one of those cognate anagrams you’ll find in any half-decent dictionary of cognate anagrams.

    CONDOR was an easy spot, but I’ve quibble-ticked it. For me “described by” can only be a container indicator – I’m not convinced it works as a hidden answer indicator.

    Thanks for the explanation of EGG. I put the answer in with little hesitation but the wordplay was a mystery until I checked here.

    Q-1 E-6 D-8 COD 25 PIP – a simple double def that took a long time to see.

  20. 11 minutes of which the last couple was spent on, you guessed, CONDOR. In addition I has to convince myself of EGREGIOUS – This is one of these words which I know , but never know , or remember, the meaning of. Shocking? Suppose I should go and look it up. I just confuse it with gregarious.
    Also took a bit to work out EGG from the clue.
  21. Regards all. A relatively quick 15 minutes for me. The SE corner took the most time, unraveling EQUIPOISE and GENEVA. Like others, I just entered EGG for 12 and didn’t worry too much about all that wordplay, which is quite clever. No problem spotting CONDOR, but only after the checking letters were in place. Hadn’t heard of Settle or lias before; they didn’t cause a problem, but I didn’t understand PROMPTER til coming here. That was my last entry, due to not being familiar with ‘prommer’. COD: EQUIPOISE. I think 9D would also have been excellent had there been a better way to clue ‘METE…’ than ‘Metropolitan centres of men…’, because the rest of the clue was very clever. See you tomorrow.
  22. Condor was last for me too. I put it in, but didn’t see it in the letters until I blogged. Duh!

    On another note – can anyone remember ‘tonne’ being pronounced to rhyme with ‘on’, on the radio (probably when metrication first came in)? I’ve asked the BBC pronunciation unit but they won’t help. Do you think it’s now redundant? We’re making a recording for a text book. Most dictionaries give it as ‘tun’, like the imperial measure.

    1. I remember my schoolteachers giving conflicting instruction on ton/tonne around that time. You might want to try contacting Graham Pointon through his blog linguism.co.uk. He was an adviser on pronunciation at the Beeb for many years as well as a broadcaster, and pretty much founded the modern pronunciation unit. He would almost certainly know.
    2. I note that you have consulted dictionaries so you have probably looked this up already but just in case you haven’t, the OED has the pronunciation as either TUN or TUNNY. It also cites the following relevant quotes:

      1972 Which? May 130/3 The British Steel Corporation, going metric but realising the possible confusion between a ton and a tonne (1,000 kilograms) has directed its staff to pronounce ‘tonne’ ‘tunnie’. 1975 B.S.I. News Apr. 5/1 Our units committee has been asked to advise how, in speech, confusion between ‘tonne’ and ‘ton’ can best be avoided. Their advice is simply this: when saying the word ‘tonne’ never say it alone; always say ‘metric tonne’.

  23. About half an hour – good for me. Didn’t like EGG – ditching the acute accent seems like a bit of a cheat, although it’s obviously acceptable, and “marvellous” and “good” are too similar in meaning for the clue to make much sense.
  24. There may be a simple explanation as to why it took so long for some of the worlds finest crossword solvers to find the hidden word today. In the printed version “second” and “ornothologist” are printed on separate lines, so COND and OR are not contiguous. Does it look the same in the online version?
    1. My printed version of the on-line puzzle has the clue on one single line.
  25. 20 min. Was going like a train and looking for a PB but ran out of steam. the last five or six minutes were spent trying to shoot down that damned bird.
  26. New Boy
    Looked at first as though was going to dramatically reduce my 2 hour average but then stuck for an age on PIP but once penny dropped got SPARTA. Toluenne courtesy of COED, A(LIAS) and S(LAVE) guessed. Saw CONDOR pretty quick I am proud to say. BUT NO ANSWER PROVIDED ON BLOG FOR 29AC WHICH IS THE ONLY ONE I DIDN’T GET. I HAVE ?E?E?A. WOULD SOMEONE SUPPLY ANSWER WHICH I DARE SAY WILL HAVE ME KICKING MYSELF.
    Thanks to all for the suggestions on appropriate dictionaries.
    1. 29A is GENEVA – Anglicised name of a Swiss canton (as well as the city), and reverse (indicated by “looking to the West”) of (deep breath): (A=area,V=very,E=Eastern,N=new,EG=e.g.=”say”)

  27. Everyone had trouble with CONDOR. But no-one else seems to have confidently written in DORNIT, as I did. I think I figured it was probably some relative of a peewit.

    …Robert

  28. At 23d Lias is derived from “type of limestone” – it is not.
    The Lias Group is a name for late Triassic to early Jurassic age rocks in the south of England. The formation contains Limestones and Shales but Lias is not a synonym for limestone.

    There are 3 “easies” not in the blog:

    10a Chap tried to go for distribution at rock bottom prices (4,5)
    DIRT CHEAP. Anagram of (chap tried).

    12a What Faberge would turn to, if marvellous queen was good? (3)
    EGG. Not a Faberge Egg oddly enough but replacing the FAB E.R. in Faberge with G(ood) and reversing getting EG G.

    19a Replacing fluster, relaxing (7)
    RESTFUL. Anagram of (fluster).

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