Times 24147 – for want of an answer

52 comments on “Times 24147 – for want of an answer”

1. Took me 29 min to get to the point of not making heads or tails of 21. Could probably make a bad joke about pointers and setters. (A pointer sets with it nose to the game, a setter sets with its tail). Rich pun material. Maybe that is the point!
2. Hi there, similar result for me. Got through what is a mostly easy version of the puzzle in less than 15 minutes save for PHOTOFIT and the crossing POINTS (???), which I puzzled over before guessing, for another 15 minutes. I then checked online and found PHOTOFIT’s meaning, described as a British usage in Compact Oxford. That explains why I hadn’t heard it before; we call it a ‘composite’. POINTS remains a complete guess, and a mystery as to whether it’s the correct answer. I’m looking forward to hearing others opinions. Regards.
3. 20ac I had PHOTOKIT from the wordplay – a PHOTO being a “still” and KIT “partly assembled”. The dictionaries have PHOTOFIT (and Identikit), but I don’t see how you get PHOTOFIT from the wordplay.

   21dn For “point” (n.) Chambers has “a horse’s or other animal’s extremity” (being the tails), and for “point” (v.) “have or take a position in a certain direction” (which is presumably the heads, although it seems a bit loose).

   8dn I wasn’t sure why a RELAY is an article in a bank – is it a reference to electric or electronic circuits?

   1. Chambers also has “a head, clause or item”.
   2. Deposit again = “relay”. To bank on = to “rely” on. Insert the article “a”
      1. D’oh! Thanks
   3. Hi Kurihan. My version of the wordplay was the same as George’s above. PHOTO=still, FIT(TED)= partly assembled. I don’t pretend to say that’s entirely correct, if anyone has a better version.
      1. Hi Kevin I am sure you are right. I hadn’t thought of “partly assembled” being “fit(ted)”. “Kit” just came to mind (as in a “kit car” being one which you largely build yourself), and I was mixing it up with Identikit, which is a similar system to Photofit. The obvious problem with my answer is that it doesn’t exist.
4. One dictionary def of POINT is “A reconnaissance or patrol unit that moves ahead of an advance party or guard, or that follows a rear guard.” Maybe the explanation. Who knows? I threw it in without understanding and am still hardly the wiser.
5. Some clues I got with almost no thought at all and others brought me to a standstill; so all up about 45 mins, as usual. Last in was POINTS. Collins has “to point” = “to steer a sailing boat close to the wind” which just about qualifies as “to head” into the wind. I liked 13 and also 28, although I know others won’t.

   Wikipedia gives the fair maid’s beau as Hal o’ the Wynd. Notwithstanding the origin of this nickname (and I’m sure it’s nothing to do with the shortened URL which appears in the Waiting for https//: bar at the bottom of your Times Crossword Club login screen) it is fitting for Perth (Australia) being the third windiest city in the world.

6. I had HOUNDS. I see the tails but not the heads
   1. I’ve now found that huntspeople talk about having so many heads of hounds meaning the number of dogs in the pack, so maybe that’s it.
7. Surely second last, not last in a relay? And rely=bank and add a.
8. 10:17, with 22/21 the last two again. I think 22’s “partly assembled” just refers to the assembly of the photofit picture from a collection of parts – mouths, noses, eyes, moustaches, chins, etc. For points, I just concluded that both the head and tail could be the point = end of something, though I did an alphabet scan for other ?O?N?S possibilities before committing to it. My other slightly doubtful answer was TROT at 25, but I decided a TROT was a moderate movement compared to a sprint or crawl as extremes.

   Did know that LELY was a painter (you’ll see him again I promise), but not his nationality.

9. No, the anchorman runs the last leg – this matches both dictionary definitions and my own athletic experience, which in relay terms includes, as spectator or participant, everything from the 4x100m to 12-stage road relays lasting 4 hours plus.

   The trickiest thing here is seeing that “lay again” is a genuine definition from the dictionary and not just a bit of crossword whimsy.

   1. That was my problem at 8dn – I thought the first half of the clue was cryptic/whimsy and was looking for the definition in the second part, assuming (from 15) that the answer meant “relay (race)”
10. I did look up capon for the promised wince moment. I have to confess to having immediately thought of another clue for the word:
    It’s no longer a cock

    I’ll fetch my coat …
    Dafydd.

    1. I’m glad someone did that, thanks!
    2. One of the clues that for some absurd reason has stuck in my mind is a bit of Dafydd’s ‘dirty cap’ stuff from an Azed Printer’s Devilry comp for ELASTIN, seen at a weekday pub lunch for Azed competitors back in about 1996. Here’s the slip where you can see that D Price-Jones only got an HC for (from memory):

       When hanging my tackle out in the garden, I had a pe/g forever.

       One reason for remembering it is that I got one of my very few VHCs in the same comp. Those asking “what the heck’s Printers Devilry?” can get some information from an old posting of mine at at rec.puzzles.crosswords.

       1. Out-of-order W.C.’s not available for organised pub-crawl. A wall might get covered with this! (anag. less anag.).

          That was the winning clue for BURLAP in comp 1034.

          AZ’s comment was:
          “I hope that Mr Price Jones’s clue will not offend anyone. Though a little indelicate it is neatly worded and appealed to my at times rather earthy sense of humour.”

          The devilled part of the PD which you mention, Peter, was definitely not as neatly worded as the BURLAP clue.

          Mind you, my favourite of all time is Colin Dexter’s winning clue for MICKEY-TAKING:

          (M)urine extraction

          Dafydd

11. I have 21 down as ‘counts’

    Rowland Evans

12. Obviously thick today! is 6D “MIDDLE”? If so, how does this equate with “VOICE”?

    JamesM

    1. Grammar, my friend. A verb has tense, mood and voice. The voices of a verb are active, middle, and passive, although only classical Greek has a distinct middle form.
13. ….a point in the sense of a ness or a head, as in “Pednathise Head is the southernmost point of England, the United Kingdom….”

    The problem for me was tails. While a tail does come to a point, that is rather lame – but I can’t think of anything else.

    Bad clue? Yes. But the puzzle as a whole was pretty good. I finished in about 30 minutes, but for 21. I saw ‘point’ almost immediately, but couldn’t believe it was the answer until I had eliminated all other possibilities.

    A little pedantry with the middle voice of a verb – maybe one of the irregular ones!

14. I went for hounds on the basis that at least it made sense for tails, and subconsciously the Holmes reference at 27 might have had something to do with it. We shall see.

    I enjoyed this far more than yesterday’s with lots of well disguised definitions and elements and some wit at last (wee lies) so plenty of penny drop moments after yesterday’s tiresome code-breaking session.

    30 minutes in all, Q-1 (for 21) E-8, D-8, COD weeklies.

15. Very similar experience to glheard’s – all done in 25 mins or so, then held up by 21dn and 22ac. After taking a break of some hours, I came back to it and PHOTOFIT emerged fairly quickly for 22ac. In the end, I went (a pure guess) for POINTS rather than HOUNDS at 22dn, but, if this is the right answer, I am not much the wiser, even after all the learned and ingenious explanations above. The simplest one, I guess, is that we are required to take “point” in the sense of “a horse’s or other animal’s extremity” (see Chambers), which could presumably be either its head or its tail.

    Michael H

16. Thank you. Not quite as thick as I thought!

    JamesM

17. Fairly standard solving performance with two left at thirty minutes including the dreaded 21 down. I am not fully convinced of any suggested entry, but,

    For POINT Collins has ‘8: a promontory usually smaller than a cape’ which to me, at least, indicates ‘head’ and;

    ’17: any of the extremities, such as tail,ears or feet of a domestic animal’ which obviously includes ‘tail’ but could possibly mean ‘head’ as well.

    Although MINOR was in 4a, I was also trying to fit it into 12a for a time (as in the younger son being known Snodgrass Minor to distinguish him from his older sibling)

18. Like kurihan, I too went initially with PHOTOKIT at 22ac, reading the wordplay as he did, but then decided I was over-influenced by the similar Identikit. I can see that glheard’s explanation works perfectly well, but am inclined to agree with Peter B that this is really intended as a quirky definition – “still partly assembled” being a rough description of how these composite pictures are put together and making the clue more or less an &lit. Perhaps both readings are right.

    Michael H

19. Not sure of the time as I didn’t really note at what point I settled on POINTS. It would seem that 21d must remain a known unknown until the solution is published, and its explanation an unknown unknown. After a night’s unconscious reflection, the ‘animal extremity’ explanation looks the best bet. This is the sort of clue that could confuse a stupid person (that’ll be all of us, then). In the spirit of our times, I demand an apology. And a parliamentary enquiry.

    Otherwise, an enjoyable puzzle. I really liked HINDSIGHT.

    I gather the BBC has started filming (traditionalists cover your ears) a modern day Sherlock Holmes. I suppose the urchins of the Baker Street Irregulars will now be the Yo Holmes Posse.

    1. Oh goody. How long into the first episode before Watson comes out with “No sh*t, Sherlock”?
       1. We could run a sweepstake. My guess would be ‘not long’. I read your comment as far as “before Watson comes out…” and was thinking “Yes, probably”.

          By the way, in keeping with the studied informality of the age, it’s to be called Sherlock (we should probably be thankful there’s no exclamation mark).

          1. Interior, evening, Holmes has his crack pipe in an overstuffed easy chair, fixated on the grandfather clock in the corner.

             Holmes’ blackberry plays the first three bars of “The Fear” by Lily Allen. He grabs for it and presses buttons furiously.

             Holmes: “A text from Watson!”

             Close up on the blackberry, which reads

             BDY IN THAMES FOUL PLAY SSPCTED GET YOU BITCH ASS H3R3 LOL WTZN

             Seeing the freezing London ice through the window, Holmes grabs his hoodie and steps out into the nearly-empty streets of North London, pausing only for a no-whip macchichino from Starbucks as he makes his way towards the seedy world of desperate men and Yates gastropubs.

             1. Bravo, George – that text message is genius! (especially the LOL)

                Perhaps they should have called the series HLMZ.

             2. Epilogue

                With the sexual harassment claim by Mrs Hudson settled out of court, Watson reunited with his Brazilian boyfriend and the bidding on Ebay for his deerstalker hotting up nicely with 9 minutes 32 seconds to go, Holmes was now in a far better frame of mind to reflect on the curious events of the past 48 hours. But that could wait. “Bothered”, he said to himself, then “meh”, as he adjusted his baseball cap, picked up the Wii remote, and prepared to tackle level 9 of Violin Hero.

                1. The scary thing is… “The Holmes character has experienced a revival of late – a Guy Ritchie movie is currently in production and a comedic take on the detective is in development with Will Ferrell and Sacha Baron Cohen attached to star.”

                   You guys aren’t doing the screenplay, are you?

                   1. Not right now, but if messrs. Ferrell and the Baron of Cohen are reading, and I’m sure they’re both crossword and blog aficionados, I’ll send a portfolio.
20. How did people fare with 25d? I too put ‘trot’ in as some guess at an abbreviated form of trotskyite and and as a moderate pace, but I’m not convinced.
    1. That’s how I see trot working and the dictionary supports both elements. I needed both checkers to get it but once they were there it seemed pretty obvious.
21. No correct timings here, as I was interrupted with phone calls about every five minutes, which made concentration somewhat difficult. I had question marks on 22ac / 21d / 28ac, all straightforward apart from that.
22. Opening up my new Concise Oxford (11th ed., revised, 2008 – so no more need for me to keep on saying that I’m using an old edition), and looking up POINT, it has the “ends of an animal (horse or cat for the COED)” def. mentioned by Michael H, so this seems the simplest justification for POINTS. I can’t buy HOUNDS, as having heads and tails doesn’t seem enough – so do horses and umpteen other creatures.
    1. I was thinking of a double definition actually, Peter. Heads as explained in my second posting and hounds = dogs = tails. I don’t have the books to hand to check at the moment but it seems possible to me.
       1. Thanks to Jimbo we now know. Having arrived home and looked at various books I was ready to concede that “hounds” doesn’t quite fit the bill. To hound seems to contain an element of ruthless pursuit and possible harassment whereas to tail seems to be more discreet and secretive.
23. Thoroughly confused by 21D and having guessed “points” for no really good reason I came here looking for enlightenment. No such luck – everybody as confused as me. So I’ve just done something I’ve always meant to do – I phoned the help line and got the the official answer, which is POINTS. Now all we have to do is explain it. Time for the setter to enter the blog?

    Other than 21D reasonably straightforward 25 minutes. Knew “Lely” from another puzzle somewhere and “nesh” because it’s a word my wife uses – comes from up north somewhere I think. An OK puzzle except for 21D.

    1. I’ve just been reading a novel set in the Derbyshire Peak District and the word ‘nesh’ is used a few times to mean ‘soft’, as in “He’s a bit nesh. He wouldn’t last five minutes on the moors.”
       1. My wife’s use is rather more pointed and normally accompanied by a Medusa stare. I’m left in no doubt that I have failed to live up to expectations!
24. For whatever it’s worth, OneLook Dictionary comes up with “point” when one puts in either “head” or “tail” into the “words related to” box after searching for
    ???n?.
25. Siamese cats have ‘points’ of various colours at their cold extremities, including tails. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_(cat)
26. Does “BACK” = “WING” in wordplay here? Can’t find any specific definitions for “wing” to suggest this so perhaps I’m missing something?

    SD

    1. In Rugby Union, Numbers 11 and 14 are wings, and also count (like all of numbers 9-15) as backs rather than forwards.
       1. Thanks Peter. Thought there must be some sporting allusion here.

          SD

27. Like so many others, I had no trouble filling the grid until I ground to a halt with what we now know to be POINTS. I wonder if there has ever been one clue before which has given so many experienced solvers such trouble?

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