Sunday Times Cryptic No. 4811, by Jeff Pearce — talking Turkey

Author   Guy du SablePosted on Categories Weekend Cryptic

I put in about half of the answers, starting with the extremely easy FLEET, in a desultory manner while watching the last half-hour of a too-long and somewhat preposterous movie (which had a nice twist at the end, though). Those answers went in with hardly any pondering. The rest of the puzzle was just a bit chewier. But there was one answer I could not think of at all totally unaided.

(gamarans)* like this, definitions underlined…

ACROSS

 1 Monk’s Fiat on hill (8)
BENEDICT—“Fiat” being EDICT, stuck on BEN, “hill.” I saw the first word as “Flat” at first, which didn’t help.
 5 Short deer, goat and badger (6)
HARASS—HAR(t) + ASS (“goat” in the sense applied to a person)
 9 Might one entertain soldiers for dinner? (8)
ANTEATER—Cryptic definition. I think the poor ants would consider this stretching the definition of “entertain” a bit.
10 Second pink wine is sour (6)
MOROSE—MO(ment) = “Second,” “pink” = ROSE.
12 Musical composition left on fabulous ship (5)
LARGO—L on ARGO. This is more properly a musical notation of tempo, and may identify a movement.
13 Obstruct modern portico being built across two lakes (9)
STONEWALL—A bit convoluted, with “modern,” i.e., NEW, with a “portico,” STOA, spanning it, and then two Ls for “lakes,” with nothing crossing them.
14 Using gas with caution—about to enter underground tunnels (6,6)
RABBIT WARREN—To solve this, you would be “Using” RABBIT (for “gas,” hot air, yammering) and WARN, “caution,” with “about,” RE, entering the latter.
18 Top managers head off to centre of Heathrow to collect food—it isn’t far… (5,7)
HAIR’S BREADTH—(c)HAIRS and (Hea)TH(row), with BREAD inside.
21 … and head away from Somerset resort to handle a situation beset with problems (9)
MINEFIELD—MINE(head) + FIELD (to handle). I must’ve heard of the resort before, but I didn’t look it up until after solving.
23 Gives support to Australians about test opener (5)
ROOTS—That’s (kanga)ROOS about T(est). Rah rah.
24 Private note hidden in camp (6)
SECRET—SEC(RE)T
25 Safer net transported catch (8)
FASTENER—(Safer net)*
26 Moderately attractive (6)
PRETTY—Double Definition
27 Pick large crumpet looking fresh on the outside (8)
PLECTRUM—(crumpet)* with L for “large” on the inside

DOWN

 1 Big bird carries black dog (6)
BEAGLE—B on top of EAGLE.
 2 A heavyweight upset railway official (6)
NOTARY—A TON <— , + RY.
 3 Interpreters start to discuss part of New Testament about silver (9)
DRAGOMANS—D(iscuss) + R(AG)OMANS. Interpreters and guides, especially in countries speaking Arabic, Turkish, or Persian. Their heyday was the Ottoman Empire. They knew European languages too. I had to give up on trying to parse DIAGONALS to somehow have something to do with “translators.” But this shouldn’t have been so difficult! After all, the only six-letter “part of the New Testament” is the sixth book, Romans! And DRAGOMAN(S) is a word I’ve certainly seen before, though I’m not sure I ever knew it meant a translator (and I will never forget that now). It is surely, and by far, the most interesting word to be found in this week’s lot, with a complicated and variegated etymological background… studying which makes clear why DRAGOMEN is not the plural, nor are there any DRAGOWOMEN.
 4 See nervous merchant when speaking on revolutionary fast food (12)
CHEESEBURGER—(See)* + BURGER (sounds like “burgher”), tacked onto our perennial “revolutionary” CHE. We had a discussion about the use of “on” in clues here recently. I think the “rules” or recommendations are supposed to apply more specifically to the dailies, but it seemed to me logical that in a vertical clue the part “on” the other part would be on top, whereas in an Across, it seems to most often be placed after the other part (putting something on something else implying that the something else was already there). But this consideration only occurred to me days after working this. And, as we can see with LARGO here, the conclusion to be drawn from all this is really that anything goes.
 6 Got up with a bourbon, say (5)
AROSE—Another ROSE, how nice to have two. A “bourbon” is a type of the flower.
 7 Attempt to hold a doctor following a very old scientist (8)
AVOGADRO—His first appearance this week, as he also showed up in a daily. “Attempt” is GO, holding DR for “doctor, following A V(ery) O(ld).
 8 South London district in Bexley is an area suffering inflation (8)
SWELLING—S + WELLING, a London district. Adding “in Bexley” may be extremely helpful to British solvers, but I could only work the clue by ignoring that part. I just assumed there was someplace in London called WELLING (if not someplace in South London called SWELLING). Looked it up later.
11 Halt donation that’s corrupt with utmost force (5,3,4)
TOOTH AND NAIL—(Halt donation)*
15 A group of preservationists take lorry around cold area to the south (9)
ANTARCTIC—A + N(ational) T(rust) + AR(C)TIC. I’m sure I first heard of the NT from The Beatles, Lennon’s “Happiness Is a Warm Gun”: “A soap impression of his wife which he ate and donated to the National Trust.” I could never figure out whether it was the impression or the wife that were eaten, and how either could be donated after having been consumed.
16 Green light gets bus ruined in crash (6-2)
THUMBS-UP—THUM (bus)* P
17 Get container for rubbish and clean new housing for sailors? (8)
BINNACLE—BIN + (clean)* Actually housing for some nautical equipment onboard.
19 Meet at Queen’s Snug? (6)
JOINER— JOIN with (“at”) “Queen” ER (who else?). At first I thought a “snug” (deceptive capitalization?) might be a term for a kind of device also known as a “joiner,” but of course this is the name of one of the colorful characters, a joiner by trade, in Shakespeare’s A Midsummer Night’s Dream.
20 Hostel has awful butter (6)
ASHRAM—(has)* + RAM. “Hostel” is a little vague as a definition. It is typically a retreat for religious devotees.
22 Many ships moving rapidly (5)
FLEET—Double Definition.

28 comments on “Sunday Times Cryptic No. 4811, by Jeff Pearce — talking Turkey”

  1. 38:12 – held myself up by putting Antartica at 15dn. Eventually realised I had to revisit it when 27ac could only be plectrum. I actually wasn’t so keen on the two roses. I didn’t know bourbon as a rose and having one already in the grid made me hesitate. 3dn was vaguely heard of. I’m not sure I could have told you what a binnacle was. As a British solver I confess Bexley was not helpful in getting me to Welling. That may just be my poor knowledge of the towns and districts on my own doorstep though.

    Edited at 2018-08-19 12:23 am (UTC)

  2. I had another neutrino experience with this puzzle due to the Club site problems, but actually solved it in 33:28 on paper first. I have to confess to looking up DRAGOMANS though as I could only think of DIAGONALS and it was obviously wrong. An enjoyable puzzle. Thanks Guy and Jeff.
  3. I put in CORNER instead of JOINER, not being able to think of anything else; embarrassing because I know MND and Snug. I took ‘entertain’ in 9ac as ‘entertain the idea’, and ‘soldiers’ as the egg-and-toast combo (that I learned of here) found at breakfast sometimes. I wondered about ‘Using’ in 14ac and ‘Get’ in 17d; they both seem otiose. I ‘knew’ BINNACLE while not having any idea what a binnacle was; ditto for DRAGOMAN (which I probably would have pluralized as DRAGOMEN).
  4. “Get” in 17d, as well as “Using” in 14ac, is the kind of thing I accept somewhat grudgingly. But I wasn’t going to say anything…
  5. I get your point about whether the ants are or are not entertained, but I think the setter is using “entertain” in the sense of “admit (an idea) to consideration”.
    1. Well, I don’t know what was in the setter’s mind, but the phrasing seems too elliptical to convey that sense. To say you are entertaining the idea of having guests for dinner is not to say that you are (just yet) entertaining guests for dinner.
      1. The ANTEATER is entertaining the idea of eating soldier ants for dinner. I read the surface in the other sense of ‘entertaining’: i.e. having a group of soldiers round for a meal.
        1. So I should have written “eating” rather than “having”? No difference, really. I can’t imagine anyone in real life saying they were “entertaining a hamburger” when they meant they thought they might like one. The parenthetical part in the definition offered above, “To admit (an idea) to consideration,” wouldn’t be assumed if I saId merely, “I’m entertaining a whiskey.”
          1. I think if you said ‘I’m entertaining a whiskey for my nightcap this evening’ I’d understand what you meant. It’s a bit of a strange form of words, but this is a cryptic clue so we can grant a little bit of leeway. If we like.
            1. it sounds a bit Hannibal Lector — “I’m entertaining an old friend for dinner tonight. That or grilled halibut.”
            2. Indeed. If you ever hear that exact locution come from my lips, you should politely inquire if perhaps I’ve already had enough.
  6. As with the Saturday puzzle, my entry on the club site still says “0%” “In progress” thanks to all the problems with the site.
    In my notes I’ve written 34m 40s so it can’t have been that difficult.
    I also have several question marks against CHEESEBURGER so thank you Guy for your explanation.
    COD to JOINER.
  7. Everybody seems to have been much faster than me last weekend, with me taking on the two puzzles more seconds than there are molecules in a gram.molecule. 54 minutes on this one, with LOI JOINER, fingers crossed, AMND (probably my least favourite Shakespeare) character and his job unremembered. DRAGOMANS rang a faint bell, with ROMANS the only New Testament book that would fit, although I spent time with a shoehorn and Acts. Spent quite a while parsing CHEESEBURGER too. I’ve not been that keen on burgers since they stopped toasting the bun properly. I’m not too bad on my suburban Kent having played cricket for Crofton for a season in the early seventies, so got Welling, through the red mist that descended at the mention of the seat of the worst PM in history. Decent challenge. Thank you Guy and Jeff.

    Edited at 2018-08-19 06:46 am (UTC)

    1. At least the Grocer now has some competition for the title and probably even worse yet to come whichever side wins next time!
  8. 16:04. One of those 80/20 puzzles where a few of the answers hold you up disproportionately. BINNACLE and DRAGOMANS vaguely known but I wouldn’t have been able to tell you what either meant.
    The use of ‘Australian’ in a clue for ROOTS made me chuckle as the word has its own meaning in that part of the world. I believe our Aussie friends say ‘barrack’ for this supportive sense. In Canada ROOTS is a leisurewear brand: they make track suit bottoms with ROOTS emblazoned across the backside, which it is advisable not to wear down under.
    Funny to see the man of the constant again so soon.
    1. The use of ‘Australian’ in a clue for ROOTS made me chuckle as the word has its own meaning in that part of the world.When I
  9. My solving time was off the scale. This was very hard work for one of Jeff’s puzzles so perhaps he’s upping his game in the face of competition from the other two regulars.

    Had to use aids for AVOGADRO but that prevented me having to do so for another puzzle later in the week. The unknown DRAGOMANS came from wordplay as did BINNACLE which I’d heard of but had no idea what it was.

    LARGO as a piece of music didn’t bother me at all (‘Handel’s Largo’ has been a popular title for donkey’s years, as have other tempo indicators used as titles such as ‘Allegro’, ‘Andante’ etc) but I raised an eyebrow (far more than a MER) at BEN clued as ‘hill’. It’s a mountain or mountain peak and ‘hill’ is defined (by Chambers amongst others) as a raised area of land smaller than a mountain.

    I’m another UK solver who was not helped by mention of Bexley at 8dn, nor South London for that matter. During the years in which I was absorbing knowledge of such matters WELLING was in Kent and as I’ve never been there I didn’t know it had changed in 1965, at least as far as local administration is concerned.

    Edited at 2018-08-19 06:08 am (UTC)

  10. No recall as to how long this took: I haven’t yet found how to look up submitted crosswords on the Times site, which is where I solved perforce. It might well have been a long time.
    I see I’m not the only one who immediately thought of Ted “shoulders” Heath at the mention of Bexley, though I couldn’t tell you whether Welling was part of it or vice-versa, as I would have put Welling indefinably North (it is, but with “borough” connected).
    I don’t think I parsed STONEWALL, so thanks for that.
  11. was a write-in as there is a post office on Acklins Island at BINNACLE HILL in the Bahamas. WOD

    7dn AVOGADRO is the name of kitchen wear (fruit-peeler) from IKEA.

    FOI 2dn NOTARY

    LOI 5ac HARASS

    COD 9ac ANTEATER most entertaining! With chianti – which is making a comeback.

    56 mins. I would prefer a good shiraz with my halibut.

  12. Almost identical to kevingregg. 16:42 with the same error. Corner in place of Joiner.

    Great minds! 😀

  13. 24:54 with ANTEATER my LOI with a grin when I got it. I had never heard of Welling so SWELLING went in with a shrug. THUMBS UP my favourite.
  14. I solved this whilst on holiday in Northumberland. It was a wet day and so it was a perfect opportunity to enjoy the papers and the puzzle.
    I enjoyed this. There were some easyish clues to get going: FOI was Fleet.
    Swelling took me a while and I don’t live that far from Bexley. Avogadro has become the London bus of scientists.
    I was defeated by Dragomans. Probably should revise my NT books. David
  15. Finished correctly in an hour with a break, but with a number of unknown answers or components of the wordplay and a spate of unbelievably obscure references: never heard of a BINNACLE, nor Minehead, nor Welling, and for Snug the joiner I really should brush up my Shakespeare, even if I am not going to start quoting him now. Stoa (in STONEWALL) and DRAGOMANS just barely seemed to be likely and rang vanishingly faint bells. Still, biffing and sometimes the wordplay saved the day, surprisingly.
  16. The sunday times xword used to be doable. Last few months it has been getting more and more obscure in clueing and frankly unejoyable!

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