Sunday Times 4784 by Jeff Pearce – Schrödinger’s artichoke

50 comments on “Sunday Times 4784 by Jeff Pearce – Schrödinger’s artichoke”

1. A number of unknowns here, such as BIRD TABLE, TOPPER, DAY, BUTTON. Embarrassingly enough, I never figured out the wordplay in 10ac. Knew GOB–ugly word–but couldn’t remember if it applied to sailors or marines.
2. A nice straightforward puzzle which took me 26:43. The only things that were new to me were the Malaysian currency and the GOB for US sailor. Thanks Jeff and K.
3. 54:28. I enjoyed this one. I thought 10ac excellent with its anagrist masquerading as containicator and its reference (I’m assuming) to the chess correspondent whose column appears adjacent to the Sunday puzzle in the treeware version. I was not sure about plate for cup or quite why Goldilocks was a buttercup so thank you for the research on that one. Nor did I know the gobby American sailor but the answer couldn’t be much else. I never quite got the “What Need” spoonerism, now I see why. 1dn took ages to get so the RHS was completed a lot quicker than the LHS.
4. Did this on paper on Monday, and was pretty sharpish, around 20 minutes. I liked the Spoonerism. Strangely enough, later last week I watched an early Jack Nicholson movie, ‘The Last Detail’, which features three GOBS. Doing quite a bit of ‘kneeing’, and all.

   Thanks to Jeff and to K, especially for alerting me to the fact that a Jerusalem artichoke is actually a sunflower. Apparently it IS distantly related to the globe artichoke by dint of both being members of the daisy family. But then I guess I am distantly related to K by dint of both being members of the human race. Discuss.

   1. Well of course we’re all famously descended from one woman who lived the Wednesday before last, or something.
      1. And there was I thinking we were descended from a monkey – well, two, I suppose.
5. A doddle for me,this.After the Dandy having folded up,os the Beezer still around?Used to read them as a kid in the 70’s.And the Beano?COD SALAMI.
   ONG’ARA,
   KENYA.
6. How does the apostrophe-s work in the cryptic reading?
   Often, of course, a possessive on the surface is found to be a contraction of “is” in the hidden meaning.
   But I’m afraid here it is supposed to work rather like it did in this clue, from a few weeks ago:

   14, Centre of learning’s large book about Celtic’s result (7). OUTCOME – OU (centre of learning – i.e. the Open University) + TOME (large book) around (about) C (abbrev. Celtic).

   So, fine, you can say “Open University’s tome” or “OU tome,” it comes to the same thing.

   But… “Priest’s church”? (and why the cap?)
   How would that translate in the answer to “priest church,” sans a possessive?

   Edited at 2018-02-11 07:53 am (UTC)

   1. I read the S here (and in the OUTCOME clue) as a contraction of ‘has’.
      1. When apostrophe-s is a contraction for “has,” it is followed by a verb.
         It is clearly an indication of possession in the OUTCOME clue, which doesn’t mean it is a contraction of “has.” “The school has a tome” does not say exactly the same thing as “the school’s tome” or “the school tome.”
         (Not all possessives could drop the “s,” either, for that matter. Try replacing “The man’s jacket” with “The man jacket.”)

         Edited at 2018-02-11 11:44 am (UTC)

         1. That isn’t true. The first example I thought of was “I’ve a bone to pick with you”, but a quick google gives me the following examples:
            – “He’s nothing on!” from a translation of The Emperor’s New Clothes
            – “He’s no money, not a farthing” from a translation of The Brothers Karamazov
            – “He’s lots of projects in the go” from a recent article in The Independent
            1. Well, that’s amazing. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that, with the “s” (maybe it’s a particularly British thing?).
               I could have analyzed this more thoroughly when I “woke up” (sort of) to answer your reply. But what I neglected to point out was the missing indefinite article in the phrase in question.
               Would anyone really ever say “priest has church,” and not “priest has a church”?

               Edited at 2018-02-11 03:02 pm (UTC)

               1. No, but this kind of truncated language is ubiquitous in cryptic clues. You don’t have to look past 1ac in this puzzle to see similarly stunted syntax.
                  This formation (‘he’s nothing on’) is quite rare, and a bit awkward and/or old-fashioned IMO, but none of that disqualifies it for exploitation by setters!

                  Edited at 2018-02-11 03:11 pm (UTC)

                  1. Oh, I know that about cryptic clues, K. And I’ve absorbed the new (if not merely forgotten) information. But I still can’t see how “Priest has church” is equivalent to “PR(iest) C(hurch of)E(ngland),” “PR CE.” This isn’t a matter of the syntax working one way in the surface and differently in the cryptic reading. In the surface, the pos-s is simply possessive. In the cryptic, if it’s supposed to be “Priest has church,” then “PR CE” doesn’t say that, it simply says “Priest Church of England,” which is a noun, not a phrase with a verb…
                     I could see (or would hope I could see! Ha) that rare locution being utilized, but I don’t think it’s used properly here, for that reason.
                     In any case, it’s easier for me to read “Priest [C]hurch of England” as a noun, meaning the (or an) English [C]hurch that a priest belongs to, rather than as somehow saying the phrase “Priest has Church of England.”

                     Edited at 2018-02-11 03:46 pm (UTC)

                     1. I think in this kind of construction (‘X has Y’ indicating X,Y) the word ‘has’ is just supposed to signify something like ‘has next to it’. It’s a kind of filler. Not very elegant perhaps but it’s reasonably common.

                        Edited at 2018-02-11 03:53 pm (UTC)

                        1. Well, of course, but those two parts aren’t next to each other.
                           1. They are: these are cryptic instructions for the formation of PRCE. This then becomes a cryptic element to be operated on by the insertion of ACT I.
                              1. I find it rather awkward, at least, to have to bracket [Priest has church], as if the pos-s for “has” were part of a mathematical formula, in the parsing.
                                 “First part of play in [Priest has church].”
                                 1. It’s not the most elegant clue perhaps but I see this as pretty standard cryptic construction. This sort of clue is sometimes compared to assembling Ikea furniture!
                                 2. “Perhaps”? Oh, you’re so polite.
                                    With Ikea, I hear there’s always an extra screw or two left rattling around.
                                    I think it’s optimal to have wordplay that reads as smoothly as the surface.

                                    Edited at 2018-02-11 06:00 pm (UTC)

                  2. 1 across reads like a dictionary def., nothing as odd as this.
                     It occurs to me that we say things like, “I have church in the morning.” So the priest has church, priest’s church… but PR CE still doesn’t say that to me. We’re dealing with a particular church here, a proper name, the Church of England. Which is a priest’s church (and a priests’ church), or a “priest church.” So I am coming to terms with this clue, but seeing the pos-s as a possessive rather than trying to make “has” work somehow.

                     Edited at 2018-02-11 03:54 pm (UTC)

                     1. See above: I think you’re trying to find semantic logic where there is none. It’s just [wordplay elemant] has [wordplay element].
                        In 1ac perhaps the oddest thing is the word ‘to’, meaning ‘next to’. Again it’s something no-one would ever say, but ‘to’ can mean ‘next to’ or ‘against’ so we have [wordplay element] next to [wordplay element].

                        Edited at 2018-02-11 03:58 pm (UTC)

                        1. Oh, thanks for clarifying what you meant about 1 across. I really have to go back to bed now. (Though it’s 11 am here…)
   2. Possibly the setter consulted Collins which specifies that Pr. is an abbreviation of Priest or Prince – both with capital letters. Chambers, however, is happy with ‘priest’. Whatever the reason, there’s a convention that capital letters can be used at the beginning of any words in a clue at the setter’s discretion but they cannot be omitted where the context requires them. You’ll notice I am dodging an apostrophe debate!

      I found this quite easy apart from a few unknowns already covered in some detail by others above.

      Edited at 2018-02-11 09:24 am (UTC)

      1. I meant that I wondered why the setter used the cap (not that it’s a questionable choice in any way). Was this meant to give a hint that we are to use an abbreviation, of which the initial is part? To make us think it might be a proper name? It’s funny that, after it, “church” is not capped but translates here to Church of England.
7. Or will it decohere anyway? 50 minutes on this. COD HOT BUTTON, an expression I’ve heard but never used. LOI NIMBI. I’ve looked at clouds from both sides now, or at least part of them, A bit bemused it was PIPECLAY and not a clay pipe. Biffed KNOTWEED from its bed trespassing, not getting the Spoonerism. Simlarly with WOLF PACK, not knowing the submarine formation. I’m about to be steward in our local Church this morning for the Communion to be attended by a few hardy souls. We do refer to the chalice as part of our silver plate collection, as used in BUTTERCUP. Very enjoyable. Thank you K and Jeff.

   Edited at 2018-02-11 08:07 am (UTC)

   1. I thought about this meaning of ‘plate’ but I thought it was too vague.
8. With only GOB unparsed and GOLDILOCKS dredged up from somewhere.

   I see that I failed to win the clue writing contest today for SPIKE MILLIGAN.

   I offered:

   I told you I was ill. I’m speaking about a comedian.

   I was rather pleased with that. Oh well, today’s word is OXTER and I will have to look it up.

   1. Superb! Worthy of Araucaria. A Ximenean purist might object to the fact that the words ‘I told you I was’ aren’t doing anything in the cryptic reading, but we could object in turn to the Ximenean purist that he or she needs to get out more.
      1. Ximenes, my part in his downfall.
9. I liked this for reasons previously mentioned: that the less familiar words were generously clued … and because I finished in a sub-30 time which is quick for me. Stuck in Keflavik airport having just been told our flight to Bristol has been cancelled. Thankfully I have several crosswords on treeware, a fully charged mobile and a good internet connection …
10. … btw Jerusalem artichokes make delicious soup having a slightly sweet and nutty flavour
    1. I like to make a purée from them, which I serve with fried wild mushrooms as a starter. Delicious, but with windy results!
       1. With windy results? They are now given individual names by the Met Office, I think.

          They are next in line for Lamborghini after Khamsin, Huracan, Ghibli and Bora.

11. 🙂
12. I enjoyed this and managed to finish it. LOI was 21d where I struggled to find the intended meaning. Unparsed were Wolf Pack and Gobstopper but at least this puzzle gave you a chance to get the unknown GK.
    I really liked 10a -Stanchion. Firstly it’s a terrific word,now ignored by almost all commentators when someone hits the post or upright. Secondly, newspaper readers will know that the puzzle is printed next to the chess column, which has a relatively new author, one David Howell.
    Last Sunday’s column tells us that Gibraltar has become known for its unparalleled support of women’s chess. Now that is obscure GK David
13. An unusual electronic solve for me while on holiday in Dunster. Clearly the fresh air and quiet atmosphere helped, as I raced through this in 33:31, pretty speedy for me. FOI 1d WASHING MACHINES was a very helpful start, but I don’t seem to have recorded my LOI.

    Lots of question marks in the margins on the way through, so thanks for the parsings, especially reminding me yet again of the crossword-only “DA” haircut. Also didn’t know the “gob” or the HOT BUTTON…

    Edited at 2018-02-11 04:42 pm (UTC)

    1. I’ll have you know that aged 14 I switched barber in 1959 specifically to go to one who offered a Boston instead of a DA. We were pretty hip in Lancashire back then. I bet John Lennon was insisting on just the same to his Aunt Mimi.
       1. Heh. I suppose I don’t have breadth of experience when it comes to haircuts. Having inherited my dad’s male-pattern baldness around the age of 30 and decided to start shaving it all off, there really were a limited number of years where I would even have been able to ask for a DA, or any other cut!

          Edited at 2018-02-12 07:29 am (UTC)

14. I’m not usually a fan of Spoonerism clues, but I have to say I thought this week’s was an absolute ripper! Much else to enjoy as well, particularly the elegant 10a.

    Thanks to Jeff and to K for a very fine blog.

15. I lean more in the Ximenean direction, and I don’t know why the clue couldn’t read “I’m ill, speaking about a comedian.”
    Especially in these times.
16. “I told you I was ill” were Spike Milligan’s last words.
    1. Oh, that’s absolutely brilliant then. Thanks.
17. ‘I told you I was ill’ was famously (in this country anyway) Spike Milligan’s epitaph.
    1. Aha! Merci ! That British black humor.
       This reminds me of what the French humorist Pierre Péchin, who died in late January, said when his doctor told him that his days were numbered: “I’ve known that since I was born, asshole!”
18. DNF in 30 mins. I didn’t get Stanchion or Knotweed.
19. When on-published in The Australian of February 17, 7D was abridged by deleting the unnecessary “after Jerusalem”.
    1. Not in the on-line version.
20. In the Vancouver Sun, “after Jerusalem” was not part of the clue.
    I guess editors in the colonies think alike.
21. “After Jerusalem” in 7d was also deleted when published in The Star in Toronto, Canada on Feb 24 — l thought the clue was actually more precise without it.

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