Quick Cryptic 2937 by Teazel

137 comments on “Quick Cryptic 2937 by Teazel”

1. DNK hoy=barge; for that matter, DNK hoy. I did, however, know (from here) may=HAWTHORN, luckily. Pretty straightorward, although I stumbled over LETS OFF. 7:05.

2. The puzzles editor must either deliberately trying to put off new solvers, or doesn’t do any editing, or is incompetent. That this puzzle was published in the QC slot is disappointing.

   1. I agree with ulaca about the comment above. It may be helpful to remember that an objective of the Quick Cryptic Crossword is to provide an introductory level for solvers that will help those who wish to graduate to the 15×15. This does not mean the crosswords always have to be easy. Most of us feel the need to criticise puzzles or more usually individual clues from time to time but one can do so without casting aspersions on the competence of setters and editors.

      1. Yes, I agree that the QC should be a stepping stone to the 15×15, so making a smaller version of the 15×15 is quite pointless.

         I don’t think it’s that difficult to rank crossword difficulty into broad buckets, so publishing a puzzle like this must be either deliberate (targeting 15×15 solvers), or unintended (incompetent editing), or just random (not caring). Incompetent editing is just one option–I assume it’s more likely the editor doesn’t care or is deliberately trying to make a mini-15×15.

         1. I think this line that “the QC is a stepping stone to the 15×15” may be part of the issue here. That may have been the initial intention, and I’m sure many people do still treat it as such. But over the years the QC has built up a following and a corpus of regular solvers who solve it for what it is, and don’t want to treat it as a stepping stone.

            And that is fair enough: after all, nobody considers the Concise to be a stepping stone to anything – it is what it is and has its own group of followers. But it leaves the QC with two relatively distinct and separate solver-groups, and our poor setters struggle to satisfy both. And in trying to, the standard of the QC, the difficulty, varies quite markedly from one day to the next. I keep relatively detailed personal stats, and the standard deviation of my solving times, which ordinarily one might expect to decrease over time as I get more experienced, has quite notably increased in the last 15 months or so, even while the mean has not.

            The implication is that the puzzles are not on average more difficult, but they are becoming more unpredictable – which heightens the risk that on any given day, some solvers will be frustrated when the puzzle is not as they expected.

            1. The point about variance is really interesting, and I think it would be interesting to combine/integrate with the snitch score (which uses means).
               Variation is not a problem in itself of course, but increasing variation is an interesting trend.

            2. This is what I like about the blog. Your final paragraph has helped my understanding of statistics. The SD was always a bit of a mystery but now I see what it tells us (nearly said ‘means’)

            3. Perhaps a useful compromise would be to have the difficulty gradually increase throughout the week (as I believe the 15×15 does). Then those of us who don’t want to be brutalised can swerve Friday/Saturday, and those who do can set aside some time for it. I’m not sure that the current randomness serves anyone very well.

         2. I’m not a 15×15 solver (hardly ever finish it) and I could do this one no problems. It was much easier than most 15s.

   2. But whilst it disappointed you, for me, someone who doesn’t do the 15×15, it was a really enjoyable challenge. There is no reason why every QC should be newbie friendly, and as Cedric says, there is a very broad following so some solvers will prefer one day to another.

      1. Well said.

      2. This is interesting, as I have generally assumed (evidently wrongly) that those who want a challenge will gravitate to the 15×15.

   3. Dare we put paddle in here? We are relatively new solvers. Applying a broad brush, we are without doubt improving in all areas – in recognising what is to be done and in doing it. On occasions we have ‘super fast’ (for us) or ‘super slow’ times, the latter sometimes with multiple words still missing.
      YET without exception, the blog informs and enlightens us. In nearly all instances, we realise we could have reached the answer. Rarely is it beyond us (yesterday’s DYE KEN JOHN PEEL was beyond us). Sometimes, lack of GK limits us- though usually, correctly identifying and working through the hints gets you to the word anyway.
      We found today VERY difficult. A DNF with many blanks. Yet having read the blog we can see the crossword was fair (albeit tough) and we have learnt from it. Easy offerings are delightful to do yet are less edifying. And incompetence? If one must place it, today it lay with us, not elsewhere.

      1. 👏🏻

      2. Excellent post. I wish more people had that attitude instead of whinging. Hardly a day goes by without someone moaning that it’s “not a proper QC” and harking back to some Golden Age when all the puzzles were perfect.

      3. John Peel? Was he in the QC.

         1. No, that was the 15 x 15, which was quite difficult.

            1. Correct. Many apologies ! Brain befuddled. We are gingerly trying the 15×15 – and likewise, find some offerings far more approachable (from where we stand) than others. We are as yet to find the same level of solace in the 15 x15 blogs, though genuinely assume that reflects our current level of understanding/achievement in that arena. As previously mentioned – in our view, QC’s are generally ‘my cousin is here’ level clues, whereas the 15×15, offers ‘here is my cousin once or twice removed, find him’ (we increasingly succeed in the former, and infrequently in the latter). Time will do its thing.

               1. “My cousin is here” – great description.

            2. Ah, I know the tune to John Peel and all the words but doubt if I could have solved the clue.

               1. Maybe not in isolation, but it was clearly solvable to anyone who knew it with a few crossers in place and to many who didn’t. I mean, anyone who can solve all the clues in isolation is probably way beyond us in Verlaine/Mohn territory!

      4. I agree with you, when I started a couple months bacm I got very disheartened if I couldn’t solve a puzzle that others found easy, however folk on here showed me to take the crosswords more as a learning experience, not only as to how the clues work but learning new words and phrases. If I manage to get a solve in the 30 minutes that’s super fast for me, but to others it’s super slow. I’ve been really lucky to find this blog, with all the different sources of knowledge that comes with it

   4. Agree. I finished two QCs this week, and today after 15 mins I had only three answers so gave up.

      Fine for some QCs to be a bit harder but this is far too hard to be enjoyable, for me at least

      1. …we, too, cannot say that we enjoyed it (we didn’t) though we did learn from it, so all was not lost. Part of the rich travesty of crossword life. Hopefully, this level of difficulty remains occasional – just as the easy offerings are welcome now and then simply to remind ourselves of how far we have come.

   5. I suspect the job of Crossword Editor has much less to do with editing than the name suggests. So far this year we’ve had 22 different setters creating QCs and each of them is an independent contractor tasked with delivering a 13×13 cryptic puzzle. And this is just the QC – you then have Concise, main Cryptic, Sunday puzzles, Quintagrams etc.

      While I’m sure the Editor will check each puzzle for obscenities, unPC terms, difficult words and so on; they won’t be making wholesale changes to a puzzle. They might have suggestions on how 1 or 2 clues can be amended but I’d imagine their time is spent ensuring those setters are delivering puzzles to deadline, making sure they get paid, looking for alternates if one is unable to deliver. Talking to the IT guys. Getting the puzzle published. Dealing with a misprinted clue etc, etc. And within this they are part of a corporate organisation so having to do training courses, appraisals and all the other boring meetings the corporate world throws at them.

      So when faced with a setter like Teazel, who is very experienced at the setting the QC (and has always been a challenge) – how should the Editor respond to this puzzle?

      – Refuse to accept it and risk annoying one of their valued setters.
      – Spend their time micro-managing and changing all the clues.
      – Gently push back and say “That was a bit tough old bean perhaps you could tone it down in future”.
      – Put up with it for a while then refuse to renew a contract and have to spend time finding a replacement who may be no better.
      – Sigh loudly but then realise they’ve still got the Concise puzzle to do before lunch if they want to get down the pub for Friday drinks!

      Edit: blimey – that turned out longer than it looked when I was writing it 🤣

      1. Well maybe I misremember but I think that Richard Rogan said in a Crossword Championships day discussion a couple of years ago that he often made, in collaboration with the setter, significant changes to crosswords. He was the instigator and champion of the Quick Crossword and, I surmise, a significant moderating influence on the level of difficulty and variability of the puzzles…. not least that so many of them were his own under a wide range of pseudonyms!

         As an amateur crossword editor myself of our Weekend Quick Cryptic series (by the way you may find my own crossword from last week here a little easier than today’s) I know from experience that the best approach is to pick on clues that don’t quite work or are too difficult and suggest alternatives, but, at the end of the day, it is the setter’s crossword, not the editor’s.

3. Had ‘lets out’, so stymied myself on FLAVOURED, so a bit dumb all round.

   I think using the word incompetent above is rather harsh.

   1. Hear hear.

   2. We had let’s out too for a while 😕

   3. Me too… on both counts.

   4. As I was solving, I saw that the answer could be either out or off. Since I was teaching a student with this puzzle, I made that a teaching point – what happens if you put in a wrong answer in one of these things? Let’s put T/F in that cell, and wait for clarification.

      1. Classic soduku move.

4. Another ‘lets out’ here as I bunged in ‘out’ when I saw ‘discharges’ in the clue, which meant FLAVOURED was never going to come. AHOY was a guess and thought it was just a call on any sort of craft/vessel, not knowing HOY. Thought of AHEM first but couldn’t parse. MAY had me stumped for HAWTHORN as I had the middle letter as ‘H’ so though it began with ‘month’. DELIVER has been in quite frequently lately so that was a write-in for ‘free’. Didn’t see WRING or ANGLED. COD to MACHISMO.
   Thanks G and setter.

5. 13 minutes. I lost a little time at 12ac because the wordplay could also take us to a valid alternative answer, MACHOISM. But since this is a crossword puzzle I waited for checkers before committing myself.

   1. I got the same answer by following the wordplay. I didn’t, however, think of MACHISMO, so got very bogged down before realising there was an alternative!

6. I thought up until today this weeks QC’s have been very fair. Although I did not finish any of them they were in my mind a real QC.
   Todays was a different story and I could only solve about 25%. Far to hard for a QC even if we should get the occasional hard one this was over the top.

   I leant a lot from the weeks puzzles and I learnt something from todays: I will avoid Teazel puzzles in future if they are going to be set at this level.

   As always thanks to the blogger always helps us beginners.

7. 31:15 for the solve. SUBDUE went in as I walked through the door of the SCC and then an extensive alphatrawl came up with no obvious answer and I was just about to bung some old rubbish in when AHOY popped into my head. NHO hoy=barge and feel this was fairly representative of a puzzle that was a stepdown from the 15×15. That said, pleased to get it done and I rather enjoyed SCHOOL-BUS

   Edit: parksolve coming in at 54:28. Slowly knocking my time down there while my time here goes up 😄

   1. Nice run time ND. Beyond my wildest dreams now.

      1. Thanks Gallers. My fastest since October. Hoping to get back under 20 over the summer once the winter gym membership expires. Also hoping to get back under 10mins on the QC 😄

         1. Under 20, cripes! A Parksolve of 30 would be quite something. I had it as a vague goal when we started this bit of whimsy but it’s not going to happen now.

            I probably (possibly, maybe) achieved it sometime in the past but even then it would have required an alignment of the planets.

8. One of my slowest completions for some time at 20:23, so do I take pleasure from cracking a stiff challenge or umbrage that this puzzle is another that has (IMO) not really understood the brief for what a QC should be? A bit of both, I think. Several clues were a real stretch – AHOY, for example, my LOI and a complete guess (hoy for barge is asking a lot at QC level), and SALAAM and HAWTHORN also held me up mightily, even though for the latter I knew (from crosswords, but only from crosswords) that it was another word for may.

   Still, all green eventually, and all but AHOY parsed. Many thanks Galspray for the blog.

9. 15:58. A meaty QC as is, I think, the norm for a Saturday. LOIs STINGY, which I just couldn’t see, and then STRIVEN, which I just somehow don’t like the look of. I liked the SCHOOL BUS but COD to SUBDUE. Many thanks to blogger, setter and editor. Much appreciated

   1. took us a while to link STINGY to tight fist…we long wondered whether STINGY could really be equated to HURT… ‘Is it stingy?’ one might ask of a child.. d’uh…

      1. I had STONEY and thought it was a very clever clue, stoney as in broke, and stone from tight fist as in Paper, Scissors, Stone. Too clever by half and two pinkies.
         NHO Hoy and spent ages trying to solve and parse HAWTHORN but otherwise found it not an unreasonable challenge.

10. 18 Across.
    Could some kind soul explain how it works.
    How does ‘have’ become ‘ha’ because of ‘agitator’?

    1. H(ave) A(gitator) at the start (initial letters) gives you H and A, then an anagram of thrown to give HAWTHORN.

       1. Thank you.
          Silly me!

11. If one takes the intention of the QC to be an introduction to the world of the main 15×15 Times crossword, is it so unreasonable for QC sometimes to be as hard as an easier 15×15? Today’s is a good example. Yes, I found it rather harder than average for a QC—and a couple of clues needed a bit longer than usual to crack—but if this was a 15×15, I would consider it to be rather easy. This particular puzzle took me 20 minutes whereas the fastest I have ever done the 15×15 is 25 minutes.

    1. Exactly. Like it or not, if this was a 15×15 it would be one of the easiest ever.

12. Tough, but very satisfying once I finished. I knew may=hawthorn but didn’t see that may was the definition initially. Those cunning little words sneaked in…
    SALAAM STRIVEN GUTROT all caused problems, and various others only revealed themselves as a few checkers arrived. Liked the classy transport. Learned what a HOY is. Drank several coffees and ate breakfast.
    Sympathy to those who found it too hard, but I enjoyed it, and for those who didn’t get it all it’s a good opportunity to learn combined with Galspray’s very clear blog.

13. What Plymouthian said!

    33.45, School bus brilliant.
    Thanks

14. 7:32, so, like our blogger, a couple of minutes over average Yes on the harder side, but quite a bit easier than an average 15×15, so the puzzle fits the brief for Quick Cryptic. I got held up on 9D having put, as I see others did, LETS OUT for 8A and took a while to see it was wrong. LOI BUTTONS, which is a rather good CD. COD, though, goes to another CD – SCHOOL BUS. Nice puzzle. Thanks Teazel and galspray.

15. Tricky but ultimately fair imho. Almost missed the slow coach at 29:53 and was prepared to jump on a classier bus because, as they say, every day is a school day.
    Thanks Gals and naughty Teazle

16. I really wish that the Crossword Editor and the team of setters could decide on what the Quick Cryptic is supposed to be (and then act on it).

    Cedric’s comment above is spot on: ‘But over the years the QC has built up a following and a corpus of regular solvers who solve it for what it is, and don’t want to treat it as a stepping stone.’ .

    I had some fun with some of the clever clues today but spent too long on this and began to lose interest. I gave up before seeing my last clue AHOY. Really – is the word HOY general knowledge? Is it appropriate for a ‘Q’C? I don’t think so.
    Many of us have been pressing for many months that the QC issue should be resolved. I think it needs another name and/or a complete re-think. Too often these days, it is a totally different experience from the first couple of thousand actual Quick Cryptics (just look at some of the early ones and see).

    Perhaps we could retain this puzzle at the current level and give it a new, more precise and honest, name. That might satisfy those who get pleasure from the unpredictability and variable difficulty of the current ‘QC’ without it being confused with the 15×15. Perhaps simply ‘The Times Shorter Cryptic’? I’m quite sure bloggers could come up with a better name!

    Then we might see if the Quick Cryptic could be resurrected in its original guise and added to the range of Times Crosswords. Wouldn’t that be nice?

    1. If you feel as strongly as you obviously do, might I suggest that you address your comments and suggestions on the subject to someone who is in a position to do something about them rather than complaining here? We do not set the puzzles, nor do we have any influence over Times policy as to their title, their content or perceived level of difficulty. You can do so at: [email protected].

       1. Thanks, Jack

       2. I suspect that both Jason Crampton and Mick Hodgkin read this blog regularly, so they are well aware of these discussions.

          1. True, but I’d really prefer if complaints of this nature were moved elsewhere and addressed directly to the people in charge. It’s even possible that Mike or Jason might be prompted to reply directly (as has happened to me on occasion on other matters) or put something in the newsletter. My own opinion fwiw is that it’s insoluble anyway, as no matter what changes are made to the name of the puzzle or instructions to setters, some people will still complain. Too easy, too hard, too this, too that, too predictable etc

17. Stuck in SW so needed my old battered CCDictionary to finish (I only ever ‘reveal’ clues in desperate situations.). Anyway I looked up tribesman. Oh, of course, ANGLE. Then looked up Squeeze = WRING, of course, which gave me PDM LOI HAWTHORN. Doh!
    Yes, a tricky puzzle. Liked SUBDUE, LETS OFF, SMARMY, STINGY, BUTTONS.
    Solved a few random clues at first like ABU DHABI, UFOS, MACHISMO, BUS (had to wait for SCHOOL). Biffed AHOY, NHO Hoy/Barge.
    Thanks vm, Galspray.
    Despite another DNF, actually I kind of enjoyed this puzzle but, as has been said, lately the QCs have often become much more difficult and this must be discouraging for newcomers.

18. I’ve read all the above comments with interest. I rarely get anywhere near finishing the 15×15, but really enjoy the QC and invariably complete it, although sometimes it takes a good 20 minutes. I have learnt a lot from the blogs, and feel they add to the pleasure of doing the QC.

    Today NHO HOY as a word in its own right but easy to biff. Remember my mother being very upset when I brought some cut stems of may into the house – apparently unlucky. Thanks Teazel and Galspray.

19. From SALAAM to ANGLED with delays in the NW and SW in 11:35. HAWTHORN, WRING and ANGLED took a while to see. Thanks Teazel and Galspray.

20. I am very much a “QC only” solver, not up to the 15. But I finished this one just within my 10 minute target, and thought it was a good example of the “transition” style of QC.

    Went through the acrosses first; five unsolved. With the checkers I could then get all the downs except WRING, and then mopped up. It took me well over a minute to add LOI AHOY, because although it came up early in my trawl I did not know “hoy” as “barge” and so went all the way to Z! Even then I hesitated but decided it was just a bit of a weak play on barge/shove. Now I know what “hoy” means and I probably won’t forget it! All done (AHOY wrongly parsed) in 09:39.

    We used to have a regular poster under the soubriquet of “hopkinb”; he got so fed up with the moaning that he left us, which was a shame. I am now starting to understand how he felt, because there is a regular chorus now of a few Moaning Minnies bleating on and on about how “the QC is getting harder, the editor’s rubbish, I used to be able to do these standing on my head and now I can’t, what happened to proper QCs” etc etc. Honestly, get a grip. Just have a go, do what you can, accept it when you can’t, stop moaning, appreciate the setter’s art, and if you don’t like your times don’t blame the setter – try to improve, or accept that you’ve hit your ceiling and be a cheerful solver and contributor to this community.

    PS I rudely forgot to say – thank you Teazel and Gallers!

    1. Well said, sir!

    2. Pretty much what I would have said – right behind you on that Templar.

    3. if you leave .. there is a risk I and others will start to moan.
       And where is Tina? I thoroughly enjoyed her contributions and her few words of criticism were never unpleasant, never personal, never whiney… simply factual comments. We learnt a great deal from her and viewed her as one who set out to enjoy and to support all aspects of this strange pursuit. It is, after all, no more than a grid of interconnecting letters hidden behind a façade of seemingly irrelevant sentences. Best to focus on the 90+% good than to point at the not so, and complain. All broadly offered for free and all are free to leave. I will be silent now!

       1. I have been worrying intermittently about Tina. Last time I saw here on here she was fairly unwell and waiting for an operation. I do hope she is OK, and has just stopped posting. I miss her comments. Maybe some of the Aussies on here who met up with her a while back (in Sydney, I believe?) know more?

       2. Seconding you on “where is Tina?” ! News of her would be most welcome.

21. I agree with many of the other comments.
    When a QC is harder than some 15×15 it is neither a QC nor is it enjoyable.

    I had hoped that the new editor would get the QC defined. Is it a mini 15×15 or an easy cryptic? Could that decision be made and communicated so we know what to expect?

    Another one for LETS OUT. I thought that clues should be solvable from just the clue?
    nho HOY.

    Thanks for the blog.

22. Thank you very much setter for a tough but satisfying 13×13! As a biological binomial enthusiast, in other words extremely tragic pedant, the only possible improvement I could suggest to the equally enjoyable blog would be to start the generic name of the Hawthorn with a capital letter.

    1. Thanks Syd, amended now. Rest assured that tragic pedantry is heartily approved of in these parts.

23. I also thought that this, while towards the more difficult end, was well within the range of a fair QC. (some of last week’s were quite a bit harder). I have done the 15×15 from time to time (pb 1 hr), but also have no ambition to “move up” to it. Despite being retired I rarely have that much time on my hands.
    Somewhat annoyingly ahoy was loi, despite being a lifelong sailor and canal-boater, and knew a hoy is a sailing boat. Complete “doh” moment when finally twigged.

24. 15.38

    Wowsers. So many posts on a Saturday. Poor old Bruce rarely gets more than a dozen for his sterling efforts on the 15×15 (though they are done a week in arrears).

    In another interesting 15×15 comparison with Templar I am a reasonably regular completer of the main fare, sometimes with a half decent time, but struggled with this or at least the NW where my lack of panto knowledge and a failure to see the chestnutty SUBDUE meant I was staring blankly for some time. LOI AHOY which is the only one I thought bordered on the “too hard” side.

    I think New Driver makes some v g points. Indeed I am impressed at generally how consistent in quality both the QC and 15×15 are. I can see that easy clues can easily be assessed as easy, but it must be quite difficult to assess whether a clue is average or hard. I mean BUTTONS was easy if you immediately thought of Cinderella (is that the right one?) but for me was a struggle as buttons isnt the first synonym you think of for “does up”.

    On the moaning point, I just think it is rather rude to post an anonymous message criticising someone you have never met; who has put a lot of effort into the puzzle and who has little/no means of responding. Fine to pick up on specific clues from time to time but if you don’t like it then there are plenty of other crosswords/blogs available

25. This felt hard but, for me, easier than yesterday at 46:10.
    The old trick of taking a rest, having a coffee and returning to the fray worked again.
    Worth it for 2d BUTTONS which I really liked.
    One interpretation of the saying ‘Ne’er cast a clout till May is out’ is that it refers to the Hawthorn (Mayflower) coming into bloom rather than the month of May. That helped with 18a.
    Thanks Teazel and Galspray especially for parsing MACHISMO.

    1. I think that is the actual interpretation – to attribute it to the month is nonsense in terms of average fluctuating temperatures, whereas May comes out in March, which might be seen as a sensible time to unsew oneself and the children from the winter clouts!

26. I was using this as a teaching puzzle, as my student is back from Rio. If you are explaining how the clues might work to someone with less experience, you tend to do better yourself. Identifying the literal, analyzing how the cryptic might work, looking at the crossing letters and comparing them to the clue – these are the basic elements of solving.

    We were left with Buttons and ahoy. I was thinking maybe ahem, but that simply doesn’t parse. A US solver is very unlikely to know the pantomime characters, even though I read the Wiki on the history of the Christmas pantomime last year. So I was left with only one approach – find all the words that might fit B _ T _ _ _ S, and see if any of them click with the literal. Bothers, betters, batters, bathers? Running through the five vowels, I suddenly thought of buttons…..does up? A hit! Now how could the cryptic work? Could Buttons be a character in the panto? This seems very likely. Does the crossing letter provided by Buttons make A _ O _ obvious? Yes, it’s got to be ahoy, as I belatedly remember what a hoy is.

    So we know more than we think, we just have to work out brains until the answer pops out.

    1. Excellent solving walkthrough. Indeed though I knew nothing of Buttons the panto character, I could have followed your process given more wits and patience.

27. Perhaps the Puzzles Editor can explain what he believes the purpose of the 13×13 is in his excellent weekly Puzzles Newsletter?

28. 8:39

    I was surprised to see quite a high Quitch for this puzzle (currently 126) which typically would have taken me to 12 minutes or more. There didn’t seem to be anything that was particularly ungettable – I get that SALAAM, GUT-ROT and STRIVEN might not be in very common usage but none seemed to be a giant step from the norm. I did get breeze-blocked in the SW corner for a minute or so, where with RUING already in place, I eventually saw SHERPA, which gave HAWTHORN (= May learnt from these puzzles), WRING and finally ANGLED. Oh, and I didn’t know what a HOY was either, but it seemed the obvious answer.

    My ha’penn’orth – I like the challenge that the QC gives, and the different styles and difficulty offered by the various setters. It is undoubtedly less difficult than the average 15×15 and I use the QC to get my brain in gear for that challenge. I appreciate that some clues may seem impenetrable, but perseverance (or a break – coffee or otherwise – to reset the mind) can often pay off and be very rewarding. If all else fails, it’s no crime to not be able to complete a crossword – come to this blog and learn – that missing piece of GK or that never-been-seen-before setter’s trick will pop up again one day, and you’ll be better prepared for it.

    The 15×15 is often at another level, but there are occasions where an easier one sneaks in – keeping an eye on the 15×15 Snitch for the easier puzzles is a great way to get started. In my view, the cluing is often that bit sharper than the QC, but you will almost certainly learn new tricks and boost your GK so much further.

    Keep it up, setters and editor – you’re all doing a great job!

    Thanks Galspray and Teazel for today’s puzzle

    1. The 15×15 Snitch is very useful. I typically don’t have the time or skill to tackle the 15×15, but if I have a spare hour at the weekend I’ll see if there’s anything pitched at 70 or below, and will usually be able to get a decent amount of it done.

29. I thought it might be useful for me to say a few words, given some of the comments on today’s puzzle.

    Richard Rogan’s guide to setters said “[the Quick Cryptic] is intended to be an easier version of the main cryptic crossword, on a slightly smaller (13×13) grid”. Elsewhere in the guide he suggests the Quick Cryptic should continue to be a “reliable stepping stone to the main act”.

    I have extended Richard’s guide to include some guidance about avoiding “crossword-ese” that is only likely to be known be experienced solvers. In other words, Richard’s view was that the puzzle is nothing more than an easier cryptic crossword and I am keen that it should remain so. So there is a clear understanding on the part of the setters (and the editor!) about what is required.

    In terms of how that is achieved, setters should: avoid definitions that are too oblique or fanciful; use wordplay elements that should be well known; and avoid overly complex wordplay. (I admit that HOY in today’s crossword fails that test, in terms of familiar wordplay elements, although I would argue that the clue is still solveable, given the definition. And I would say one of the joys of solving crosswords is learning new words like HOY from time to time.) Many of the Quick Cryptic setters have been around since it was introduced, including Teazel. They are very experienced setters, both of quick and standard cryptics, and know exactly what is required and how to achieve it. For those of you that only solve the Quick Cryptic, have a look at a standard 15×15 and the corresponding blog on T4tT and compare the complexity of the clues with those in the QC.

    It is also worth noting that the setters and I are all expert solvers. Quick Cryptics do not take me long to solve and there is little variation in the time it takes me to solve them. So it isn’t as easy as people might think to judge the difficulty of a Quick Cryptic (at least for someone who has the skills required to edit them).

    It is not helpful to learn that a particular puzzle should never have been published in the Quick Cryptic slot. I take considerable time over editing these puzzles – they are more difficult to edit, in some ways, given the constraints – and try to ensure they are suitable. They will (and should, in my opinion) vary in difficulty. I think a puzzle series in which every puzzle could be completed by every solver would attract criticism. The SNITCH scores indicate there is more variation in the difficulty of the 15×15 puzzle than there is in the Quick Cryptic, which I think is appropriate.

    It would, however, be helpful to understand what aspects of a Quick Cryptic solvers have found difficult, so do post constructive comments explaining which clues have caused you problems. I won’t necessarily respond to such comments, but I will be mindful of and make setters aware of those comments I feel are useful.

    Many thanks, by the way, for all the supportive comments this morning! And apologies for the length of the post.

    1. 👍

    2. Jason – thank-you very much for taking the time to post your thought and approach. Something for us all to digest there.

    3. Thank you for responding on this Jason, and for clarifying the intentions behind the QC. Your work and that of your band of setters is truly appreciated by the vast majority of our contributors so please pass on our thanks to all.

       1. Jackkt, I echo your thanks and comments to Jason on the work, imagination, and thought that setters and editors put in to The Times crosswords. I am impressed by the quality of clues and I always try to acknowledge this, as do others.

          My concern is not about the quality but simply about the level at which some clues in the ‘Quickie’ are often pitched now, especially for those who are less experienced. Reading the comments today, I am clearly not alone in this, even if genuine concerns are occasionally disparaged by some posters.

    4. Very helpful post.
       I can understand the odd new word sneaking in if it is well clued.

       I did not get far with today’s QC. One clue on first pass (versus 4 on the 15×15). Not even managed half which is poor even for me and about standard for when I do 15×15.

       What threw me was the LETS OUT/OFF.
       As Lets out fitted definition and word play I felt absolutely certain about this one. However, putting the wrong answer has stymied me.
       If clues can only be solved by verifying with other clues then, IMHO, this is probably beyond a QC. Your thoughts would be welcome.

       The Snitch is useful but does only take the top 100 of those followed by the algorithm ( who have to complete 200 in a year I believe). It therefore applies less to us mere mortals who are thrown disproportionately by harder crosswords. [2×2 is easy for a 5 and a 12 year old ( hopefully). 7×8 should be easy for a 12 year old but will floor a 5 year old. Those followed by the snitch are the 12 year olds and may well do the 15×15 as well. Less variation should be expected]. The trends page of the snitch does show an increase in difficulty over time.

       The fact that QCs cause much discussion should not be seen too negatively. It shows there are many who are looking for a way into cryptic crosswords and are searching for a reasonably accessible puzzle whose level of difficulty is not so variable as to be discouraging.

       1. Well, looking at today’s QUITCH, I see more than 25 completed solves that took more than 20 minutes. It seems to me that the SCC is pretty well represented.

    5. Thank you for visiting, Jason. Yes, I can see it is hard for an expert to judge the difficulty of a puzzle. I was thinking of suggesting that less experienced persons/SCC members should be hired to vet the QCs.🙂

       1. I was going to suggest exactly that, having hypothesised previously on this forum that good solvers are perhaps bad at judging the novice experience. I’d happily volunteer to be a member of a notional SCC panel if it helps to pitch the QC at the right level (whatever that might be).

    6. Thanks Jason, much appreciated.

    7. Hello Mr C,
       Many thanks for coming here and helping us to understand your philosophy for the QC and some of the ins and outs from the setters’ and editor’s perspectives. Most enlightening. Please keep coming here from time to time and please keep trying to lighten the load a little if too many of mid-ranking solvers are too often defeated and start to lose heart. The QC appears to be a starter/warm-up exercise for some, but for most of us (I guess) it’s our main course. Please don’t allow it to become too exclusive/elitist.

    8. Since you have clarified your policy, I will clarify ours. Insulting comments directed at the setter or the editor are not permitted in TftT, and will be removed. In the present case the comment is marginal, has led to an interesting discussion, and was posted while all the admins were asleep, so we will let it stand.

       We do have several users who post comments like this all the time; they are on the moderation queue, and either Moody or I usually bin what they post.

       Now constructive criticism is permitted; if you want to say what clues you think are too difficult, and why they are inappropriate for a Quick Cryptic, your views are always welcome here. All this is explained in the User Tips page under the Help dropdown.

       1. I wonder if it might be worthwhile to create a page on TfTT site detailing Jason’s post which could then be pointed to when inevitably the questions arise again.

          1. That’s a great idea, it would be very helpful to have that post accessible for future reference.

          2. I have simply linked Jason’s actual post in the sidebar, under Useful Links.

             Edit: I have change my mind, and made it a separate page with an explanatory introduction, linking back to this blog.

    9. Glad to hear from you, it’s kind of you to drop in and talk it over. I normally don’t like to fuel these discussions but wanted to thank you. As a relatively new solver I tend to take the QC as a given thing, and feel that it’s up to me to tussle with it and increase my skill by doing so. (I may whine occasionally but I’m only human.) Certainly us novices find the puzzles more variable in difficulty than the experienced solvers do, but that’s just the nature of any skilled activity. I don’t think I’ve seen a clue yet that I thought was “too hard”. Too hard for my current abilities yes, but that’s a different thing.

       1. I agree. Over time my solving ability has improved (although not necessarily my solving speed). This could only have occurred because of the mixture of straightforward and abstruse clues, coupled with familiarity of the syntax of the setters’ lingua franca. The satisfied smile which accompanies AHA (as opposed to AHOY) lingers all day, but as I fast approach 75 (not out) and struggle to remember misplaced keys and glasses, I realise that my vocabulary is complete and that newly ‘learned’ words are unlikely to be remembered.
          I would be distraught if my 20-30 minutes of daily crossword quiet indulgence were to be shortened to speedster levels, and in full admiration of the setters’ skills, accept that I am frequently bettered and outwitted, but grateful to them for providing entertainment and the insight, humour and comments of the TFTT blog. No criticism from me.

          1. Very, very well said.

             Now, where did I put my keys?

    10. 👏🏻
        I have taken the view that it is up to me to work my way up to the level of the puzzles presented to me, rather than expect the puzzles to fit me. Try for long enough, and it should happen. If not, there are other puzzles available.
        I can’t do the 15×15 except rarely – that is on me, not the setter. I can do the QC most of the time and would be disappointed if the level dropped much.
        It is impossible to please everyone all the time, and the Editor would go mad trying to do so, but I think that over a period of time there is something in the QC appropriate for most.

        1. Quite so 👏

    11. Thanks, Jason – both for taking the time and trouble to reply, and for the time, skill and care that you and the team put into the puzzles. I really enjoy them.

        Don’t let the “This isn’t a proper QC any more” moaners get you down! They are a very small minority, just a vocal one.

30. Seven so reasonably pleased.
    rotgut is something consumed that gives you gutrot, at least that’s my understanding of the vanacular in the shires…

    gutrot a.k.a.
    The Aztec two-step
    Montisuma’s revenge
    Pebble dashing the porcelain

31. Oh dear! Back in the doghouse again! Arriving at Paddington so had to reveal SUBDUE (after about 22-23 minutes) to enable LOI BUTTONS. Not sure I’d have seen it (SUBDUE) anyway. Had the GK for may = HAWTHORN but that might well have stymied me as well. As it was I needed all the checkers. I was another LET’S OUT at first until I couldn’t make 9d work and reconsidered OFF. Rather tough but just on the fair side I’d have said. I’m happy to fail occasionally.

32. DNF, top left defeated me : SUBDUE, Ahoy, BUTTONS, SALAAM. Never heard of hoy=barge, still doesn’t look like a word.

    I’m not going to complain, sometimes they are just hard. And great to hear from Jason.

    1. Add Angled to your list for me. Also, Hawthorn but I think it was hard for me because I was already disheartened by the other clues.

       A note for our helpful blogger – I think the A Bud together should be taken for American from New York. I don’t think A is for American by itself.

       1. Genuinely appreciate the input but I’m pretty confident in my parsing of that one. Chambers (at least) has A as an official abbreviation for American, and it appears here often enough.

          “American friend from New York” to clue A BUD doesn’t work for me. Aside from being clunky, the “American” would be superfluous. And in any case I think it would suggest BUD rather than A BUD.

          1. Got it, thanks galspray. I stand corrected.

33. I must have been on Teazel’s wavelength today, as my time of 10:32 is slightly below my average solving time.
    I found this to be a very enjoyable puzzle, but then I am someone who usually finishes the 15×15, albeit very slowly.

    Thanks Teazel and Galspray

34. 45:45

    I would usually give up long before the clock got that far but it was one of those where the answers kept appearing. Just incredibly slowly. The RHS was fine but was stuck in the SW with the unparsed HAWTHORN, and NW with SUBDUE, SALAAM and LOI AHOY. I thought that last one a particularly poor clue.

    Parksolve? Don’t ask!

35. Found this hard – probably not on the wavelength, tbh, as I often find Teazel’s tricky – much more so than Izetti, for instance. I thought of AHEM for 11a and couldn’t unthink it. Likewise, I had MACHOISM, which held me up for the crossers for ages. Yet SALAAM went in immediately, just going to prove that one man’s meat is another’s poison. Hoping for better on the 15×15.

36. For UK solvers I’d bet that HAWTHORN is the more widely used name and May the less so.
    I rarely try the QC, the blog is quite feisty isn’t it?

    1. I put it down to the Ides of March.

37. DNF. A few clues were a twist too far for this QC man.

38. . . .seems like I dodged (another) bullet today 😉

39. 28:28. Somehow kept going when several times it seemed I was foxed. BUTTONS( didn’t know pantomime character) and HAWTHORN(didn’t see the definition) were main stumbling blocks. I kicked myself for taking so long on ANGLED. As a Canadian I grew up near an Anglican church and our two official languages here are spoken by francophones and anglophones. I am also sometimes categorized as a WASP(white Anglo-Saxon Protestant) and I once rambled through East Anglia in my twenties. How then could I miss ANGLE as a tribe? P.S. I’ve always been an Anglophile too.

    1. I recommend that you set aside an opportunity to enjoy Cinderella (other panto’s are available) should you find yourself in England over the Xmas season. Remember to look behind you.

       1. Thanks for the recommendation!

40. DNF. Completely floored by Teazel, again!
    Three clues still unsolved when I gave up the struggle after 70+ minutes. Those clues were all in the NW corner – SUBDUE, SALAAM and AHOY.

    I’m quite OK with a range of difficulty in the QC and I don’t mind the occasional DNF. Trouble is that, having STRIVEN to get to a successful solve ratio of 90-95% in an average of 25-30 minutes, it’s very dispiriting to be dumped back almost to when I started nearly five years ago. And, since the end of last summer, that’s precisely what has happened.

    I think the least good judges of how challenging something is are those who are most proficient in that something. I worked in higher education during the last phase of my career and was a sports coach in my spare time and, in both fields, I saw the same thing happening to those further down the tree. Competitive sport is particularly brutal in its treatment of those who don’t quite make the grade. Please don’t let the QC go the same way.

    Many thanks to all.

    1. Thanks, Random. I think you make some good points in your last paragraph.

       1. 👍 The idiots’ guides written by new(ish) starters, were always the best.

          1. Yes, the Curse of Knowledge is a well-known phenomenon in educational circles. And extremely difficult to overcome, even when one is fully aware of it.

    2. 👍

    3. I taught for a number of years and I still remember being told in the training I was given that “there are three groups of person in each class: the top group who are bored, and for whom it is too simple; the bottom group who are baffled, and for whom it is too complicated, and the middle group, made up of people who are beneficiaries, and for whom it is just right and they actually learn something. Your job as teacher is to expand the middle group and make it as wide as possible”.

       Expand the middle! became the catchword of our teacher training (and sadly in later life of my personal physique too, but that is another matter). I think it is an admirable ambition not just for teachers but also for QCs.

       1. Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.

41. I didn’t finish this one, well beaten by the intersecting trio of SUBDUE, BUTTONS and AHOY, even though each of them provoked the “oh, of course” response on reading the blog, rather than the baffled “what? I still don’t get it” that sometimes happens.

    I’m firmly in the camp of those who view this site as a place to celebrate the fun that these puzzles bring us. If you don’t enjoy them, find something else to do that brings you joy.

42. 14.55 WOE. I put EARWAG without checking the anagram properly, probably thinking of the phrase “his ears are wagging”. SCHOOL BUS, BUTTONS, SUBDUE and AHOY were the last few that held me up. It was a nicely pitched QC. Tougher than average but much easier than the 15×15. Thanks galspray and Teazel.

43. Back to week one of solving cryptics. Unusually for me these days, it just got too tedious trying to sort out where it might be my insufficient knowledge of British culture (BUTTONS) and where it’s my lack of skill, and I gave up the chase with five (!) unsolved clues. Hard puzzle but I’m also a little dull today.

    I do at least give myself credit for considering that “may” might be the literal in 18a but it didn’t help because the hawthorn/may equivalence isn’t part of my repertoire. Better learn it.

    Loved UFOS! WASPS was good too.

    Thanks to Teazel – always a challenge but this is by far the most challenging one yet – and to galspray for the education.

44. A bit much for me, finishing well into SCC territory. I seem to be spending quite a lot of time in there recently, and may have to reclaim my old seat.

    I found HAWTHORN particularly vicious, and only twigged (sorry) to the definition when I couldn’t think of any other word that fit the checkers. Meanwhile, it took me a long time to apply “at the start” to both “have” and “agitators”, and on top of that, “thrown” is used as anagram fodder when I’ve come to expect it more as an indicator in these QCs. I could probably have coped with any one of those in a clue, perhaps two in a tricky puzzle, but all three together is beyond me.

    Struggled for a long time with DELIVER, too. The wordplay seems fairly generous by Teazel’s standards but it’s such an unusual definition that I just didn’t see it until no other words could fit.

    Thank you for the blog!

45. I have only read some of the comments above but there does seem to be discussion about what the QC should be.
    I always struggled with the 15×15 and was delighted when the QC was introduced and I have attempted it from the first one. To me it was a cryptic I could enjoy because mostly I can finish it. Time is unimportant to me as I like to understand what the clue is about.
    As for today’s offering I had three DNF clues but interestingly Mr Wsheep also had three DNF but they were different clues!
    So my conclusion is it just depends on you and how you read the clue as to whether you think it’s an easy or difficult puzzle.
    Thank you setter and blogger.

46. Interesting reading the comments. I have had more DNFs on the QC than the main over the last month. I am a little more motivated for the main so that might explain it.

    However, this one didn’t cause me any particular problems and was going to comment how nicely pitched it was but that seems to go against the consensus.

    I also put LET OUT before FLAVOURED came to me.

    Was also reluctant to put in THE HAGUE even with it fully parsed. Is it really a capital? That was my Googling for afterwards.

    EARWIG to SUBDUE. COD:UFOS

47. Dnf…

    It is (or was) Saturday, so I often expect no less now.

    I have heard of Hawthorn = May before (mainly in crosswordland), but it didn’t twig when I was doing this yesterday. Other casualties included: 11ac “Ahoy”, 7dn “Gut-Rot” and an inability to spell “Machismo”.

    FOI – 1ac “Subdue”
    LOI – dnf
    COD – 5dn “Abu Dhabi”

    Thanks as usual!

48. Didn’t complete this one, but made myself laugh with how many answers I pit in thinking were correct, only to find out were wrong. Felt very proud to have put MISERY in 25a, thinking with tight fist meant a miser, but got the clue the wrong way round. Difficult puzzle, but looking at the answers was able to work out some of those clues backwards. Think UFOS is my favourite clue today, and made me laugh with MAO as the chiarman in 12a. Lots of interesting things learnt from this crossword, like HOY being a barge, and all about the HAWTHORN, so thank you for the blog today.

49. Catching up on this. Good discussion. Almost 10 years solving. I prefer the quickie to be a quick solve and predictable. Once solvers have cracked the quickie, the 15×15 is achievable in time. So more useful as a starting springboard rather than a stepping stone. If I have spare time in work, I can then have a go at the 15×15.

    Experts like the editor and mohn for example always solve quickies in a narrow range of times.
    The only way to issue puzzles easy to hard across the week is to employ me at a very reasonable rate!

    Teazel is one of my favourite setters. Today was fairly hard, hard but fair.

    I like hearing some of the negative posts as well as the positive ones. Some of the constant whining about negative posts is just as tiring. Horryd was one of my favourite commentators on the 15×15 and he wasn’t exactly mr positive. Also some commenters that say the 15×15 is beyond them, when really they mean they don’t have the time.

    thanks

50. Coming to this a day late and amazed to see so many comments on a Saturday. Found this very tricky but really enjoyed trying to work out what was going on in HAWTHORNE, STRIVEN and LOI AHOY (hoy was unknown) which foxed me for quite some time. COD ABU DHABI. Thanks to galspray and Teazel.

    Just to add my comments: I don’t expect the QC to be tailored to my precise level of expertise and never get derailed when one is too hard for me. It’s always my inexperience rather than the fault of the setter. You can still enjoy a QC if you don’t finish it guys!

    1. I wish you had posted first rather than last Fabian!

       Your final sentence is probably the most salient point of this whole discussion.

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