Quick Cryptic 1754 by Margaret and Bob

Author   CuraristPosted on Categories Quick Cryptic
Right, so what to say about this one. Fairly chewy in places, some not-altogether-straightforward vocabulary, but enjoyable nonetheless. I’m not sure about 1dn, but I expect someone who owns four different dictionaries will provide definitive judgemement on this. 8 minutes for me.

Across

1 After a nap returned to order a cigar (9)
PANATELLA – A NAP backwards then TELL (order) + A
6 We must be engulfed in sadness: that’s amazing! (5)
WOWEE – WE inside WOE
8 Crackers I turn to in food processing (9)
NUTRITION – anagram (‘crackers’) of I TURN TO IN
9 Girl I left in meadow (5)
LEILA – I + L inside LEA
10 One converting to book form, turning over lines (9)
NOVELISER – anagram (‘turning’) of OVER LINES
12 Back in street, bedraggled person owed money (6)
DEBTEE – reverse hidden word: strEET BEDraggled
13 A lieutenant: he meets a lady (6)
ALTHEA – A + LT + HE + A
16 Religious instruction for Catholic? Problem is Mass without English (9)
CATECHISM – CATCH (problem) + IS + M, with E for English inserted
18 Don’t vote for this party? (5)
BEANO – Be a ‘No’
19 Country fellow at home, visiting a Royal Academician (9)
ARGENTINA – GENT IN inserted into A RA
21 Row with newspaper boss ended fast? (5)
DINED – DIN + ED
22 Trio cease perversely making things obscure (9)
ESOTERICA – anagram (‘perversely’) of TRIO CEASE

Down
1 A curmudgeon finally put in a few coins, showing remorse (7)
PENANCE – A + N (last of ‘curmudgeon’) put into PENCE. Hmm. Does ‘remorse’ really mean ‘penance’? I’d say one is an emotion, the other is an act.
2 Local from NE coming round at four (6)
NATIVE – NE outside AT IV
3 Test in term: is able to appear regularly (5)
TRIAL – alternate letters of TeRm Is AbLe
4 Garland that is large put up (3)
LEI – IE + L backwards
5 All aboard on convertible, crossing motorway: it might move very slowly! (8,4)
ABNORMAL LOAD – anagram (‘convertible’) of ALL ABOARD ON + M for motorway
6 Surprised reaction from one in healthy state (4,1,7)
WELL I DECLARE –  I (one), inside WELL (healthy) and DECLARE (state)
7 Turning up in Ratibati a wild, thorny plant (4-1-3)
WAIT-A-BIT – reverse hidden word: raTIB-A-TI A Wild
11 Nan’s wild embraces much disturbed German composer (8)
SCHUMANN – anagram (‘wild’) of NANS around anagram (‘disturbed’) of MUCH
14 Buddhist monk taking in sinful erotic dance (7)
LAMBADA – LAMA with BAD inside
15 Italian resort: in one south of border (6)
RIMINI – I IN underneath (‘south of’) RIM
17 In need of repair, once, a boat (5)
CANOE – anagram (‘in need of repair’) of ONCE A
20 Stuff that’s sweet and endlessly virtuous? (3)
GOO – GOO(d)

77 comments on “Quick Cryptic 1754 by Margaret and Bob”

  1. This is the very first puzzle from ‘Margaret and Bob’ although they have set for us as ‘Bob and Margaret’ on four previous occasions. In that guise they have been appearing only once every two years (2015, 2017 and 2019) and then left a gap of 15 months before their latest effort on the 11th of this month.

    I went over my target 10 minutes by 1, slightly taken aback by the rather unusual NOVELISER, WOWEE and ALTHEA. One clue (I won’t mention it so as not to create a spoiler) added to my difficulties solving today’s 15×15.

    I can’t find justification for ‘remorse/penance’ and it’s not even in my thesaurus which tends to be more lenient. Perhaps the setters were thinking of ‘penitence’?

    Edited at 2020-11-27 07:58 am (UTC)

      2. I was vaguely aware of her in my childhood because my mother used to follow Wimbledon but I had no interest in tennis then. To be honest until you posted this comment I had always thought of her as Anthea Gibson.

        1. I only commented because you had just recently mentioned tennis as the one sport you had an interest in (I don’t).
          1. Thanks for remembering. I’m not an avid fan as I limit myself to the Grand Slams, Queen’s Club and the annual ATP tour finals. And in recent years only the Men’s Singles tournaments. I won’t watch Davis Cup as I like to follow individual players, not national teams.
      1. Actually, that’s a very good point! I wish I could remember if I considered that when solving. I only queried it when someone else raised the issue.
  2. This was a tough work out. Two on the first pass of acrosses – both the names – followed by only three downs so lots of space to work on. After 12 minutes I only had nine and was fearing the worst but stuck at it to finally cross the line in 23m albeit with CATECHISM spelled ‘cataclism’ – which in turn turns out to be a misspelling of ‘cataclysm’, which wouldn’t have fitted, so not my finest moment. WELL I DECLARE took an age to emerge, I could have done with those checkers and the anagrams needed pen and paper to come out, neither ESOTERICA nor ABNORMAL LOAD nor SCHUMANN jumped out. So tough going but enjoyable, especially for reminding me of Althea and Donna and the wonderful Uptown Top Ranking.
  3. After 8 hours, I can’t remember much of this, but I was surprised at WOWEE, and DEBTEE although I suppose if one has debtors, then it follows. Didn’t think anything at the time, but I agree with Curarist and Jack on PENANCE. NHO WAIT-A-BIT, but for once a hidden wasn’t hidden from me. 7:33.
  4. I took ‘the stopper’ this morning and arrived somewhat late to Clapton’s 9ac LEILA

    FOI 1ac PANATELLA – but no cigar!

    LOI 6ac WOWEE!

    COD 12ac DEBTEE

    WOD 7dn WAIT-A-BIT – there is a village in Trelawny, Jamaica called Wait-a-bit, which made it a write-in for me.

    And a special mention to 19ac ARGENTINA – nicely timed as a tribute to Diego Maradona.

  6. … and all the more pleasing therefore to triumph in the end, though it took 18 minutes of slog. The top half was particularly recalcitrant; after 10 minutes I had almost none of them.

    As Curarist says, some uncommon words. 6D Wowee was unexpected, and 10A Noveliser needed all the checkers and was my LOI. Also not heard of 12A Debtee, but as Kevin implies, no reason why it shouldn’t exist. As for 14D Lambada, is this not yet another word that appeared only a few puzzles ago? Given how many words there are in the language, the number of times this happens is extraordinary.

    COD 6D Well I declare: I was (of course) misled by the juxtaposition of healthy and state, just as Margaret and Bob meant me to be.

    Many thanks to Curarist for the blog and a good weekend to all.
    Cedric

  7. I was well over my target at 32 minutes, with a very slow start and finish. I didn’t think anything was wrong about PENANCE as by the time I got to 1D I was ready to clutch at any straw. My last two were CATECHISM, where I didn’t see ‘catch’ = ‘puzzle’, and my LOI NOVELISER where I was totally deceived by the surface. I missed the anagram indicator and took ‘one converting to’ as the definition with ‘novel’ for ‘book form’ and guessed the rest, but at least I got there somehow.
    It seemed a bit strange to have two ladies as answers and two reverse hiddens, but still an enjoyable puzzle at, I think, the upper end of difficulty for a QC.
    Thank to Curarist for sorting out the wordplay.

    Brian

    Edited at 2020-11-27 08:37 am (UTC)

    1. Catch is “problem” rather than “puzzle”, and in the sense of a difficulty or snag rather than a poser.
  8. Oh dear, a difficult end to a really tough week, with my 3rd DNF in the last six QC’s. Today’s mistake was DEBTER (which even if the answer had been correct would have been a misspelling! LOL). I initially assumed that street backwards would be DR and once I saw the hidden I just assumed it would end in an ‘R’.
    I also seem to have completely lost the ability to identify anagrams with even simple indicators such as ‘in need of repair’ and ‘convertible’ taking an age to spot.
    This turned into too much of a slog to fully appreciate but I enjoyed WOWEE and LOI BEANO. DNF in 25.34.
    Hopefully the weekend will give my brain a chance to reset!!.
    Thanks to curarist and well played Margaret and Bob you were too good for me today.

    Edited at 2020-11-27 08:56 am (UTC)

  9. Into the SCC again, today. Chewy says it all. Some nice clues and some horrors, as listed above by others. I spent time on WELL I DECLARE (declare/state passed me by at first) and my LOsI were ABNORMAL LOAD and BEANO (neat and my COD). A tough old week for me. If I don’t get closer to my traditional target next week, I’ll start to get worried! Thanks to M&B for a brain tease and to curarist for confirming my parsing. John M.
    1. I wouldn’t worry – I was nowhere near this one – although it is late now after a long drive, I wasn’t in the mood for any great teasing of the brain and this just didn’t provide any Q at all when all I wanted was a smile at the end of the day.
  10. I started off quickly enough but then was slowed down by the unusual words/phrases/plant in the LHS. No problem with ALTHEA who seems to crop up in folk songs now and again. Gradually picked up speed again and if I hadn’t stopped to proof read, would’ve come in bang on my target. 10:20. Thanks Margaret and Bob and Curarist.
  11. My least favourite QC for a long time.

    2 Random, obscure girls names
    1 DNK obscure plant
    1 slang word that I have never seen written – WOWEE
    2 Nonce Words – DEBTEE and NOVELISER
    1 word that appeared yesterday

    COD – None

    1. I didn’t enjoy it either. I’ve never heard anyone use the term ‘debtee’ (and I was in finance) and it’s not in any of my dictionaries, though I actually solved that one. Some other clues really hard and obscure, harder than the average 15×15. I’m amazed that people can solve this stuff at all, let alone quickly. So, after 4 years doing the QC my worst DNF for about three and a half. There’s always next week.
  12. I’ve been doing them in 15 or less but got to 20 with a few gaps still and checked on that name. When I saw the name Althea I realised I was on a different planet to the setter(s) so decided to return earth. Sorry not for me!
  13. 17 minutes here, so a bit of a struggle. I too thought of RD for street in 12a, but couldn’t make DEBTER parse, and it was clearly misspelled, although for a while I wondered about an alternative spelling, then I finally saw the reverse hidden, but the word was new to me. I also didn’t much like the grid, didn’t like WOWEE (not a crosswordy word for me, too contrived) and I’m much more familiar with WELL I NEVER as an expression of surprise than this alternative. No problems with either LEILA or ALTHEA, and remembering Althea Gibson as I entered my answer. Like Horryd, I couldn’t help thinking of Diego as I entered 19a. Thanks all 3 of you, Margaret, Bob and Curarist.
  14. A QC from left-field from Margaret and Bob, but WOWEE, I enjoyed it.
    FOI LEI. I quickly realised this was quirky and with some great clues like NATIVE and BEANO and others.
    I remember Althea Gibson at Wimbledon; I was more troubled by LEILA (not how Eric Clapton spelt it) but the parsing was easy. My problems at the end were ABNORMAL LOAD where I just needed to patiently write out the anagram fodder and 12a where I had started with Debtor and after several looks finally saw the hidden word.
    17:34 on the clock which I feel quite pleased with. Good to have a different style of challenge.
    David
  15. I’m happy with 26:28. I’d settled down for a nice easy Friday so was taken by surprise by this workout. But I enjoyed it. Even the horrors were accessible, with difficulty, from the cluing. COD to BEANO. kap
  16. I thought this was pretty hard for a quick (I went way over target). I can see novices really struggling.

    The only ALTHEA I know goes hand and hand with DONNA.

    I don’t think I know any LAILAs but the existence of LAYLA (Clapton), LYLA (Oasis) and Leela (Futurama) were enough to convince me that it was probably a name.

    1. “LAILA” isn’t actually a name (or if it is it wasn’t the answer), your post rather neatly illustrating what a rubbish word the correct answer (LEILA) was to include.

      Edited at 2020-11-27 10:47 am (UTC)

      1. Ah yes. Just carelessness on my part but it appears there are a fair few LAILAs knocking around (70m Google hits). 117m for LEILA mind you.
        1. And that’s the problem with including obscure names – there are usually multiple ways of spelling them. Mrs S is a straightforward Vicky, but gets addressed as Vikki, Vicki, Vickie (?) and even once Vycky (???). And there are worse names with even more variations. But pleased to say mine seems largely incorruptible (probably because in my experience people so seldom meet it at all).

          Cedric

          1. Since LEILA is a leading character in “Emmerdale” I’d have expected at least a few of you to know it 🤣
  17. I thought that was a rubbish puzzle.

    Neither DEBTEE nor NOVELISER are in Lexico or Chambers; assuming that they can be justified from some other source they’re still (obviously) too obscure for a QC. Random Christian names – ugh. Random unusual Christian names – ugh ugh. Two random unusual Christian names – ugh ugh ugh.

    That was so little fun that I couldn’t be bothered to trawl for the last one (_i_i_i).

    Thanks for blogging, curarist.

    Templar

    Edited at 2020-11-27 11:25 am (UTC)

      1. Neither on Chambers dot co dot uk

        “Sorry, no entries for noveliser were found.”
        “Sorry, no entries for debtee were found.”

  18. I rarely get upset about the level of the puzzle and take the good with the bad as I am learning. This puzzle was absolutely not fit for a QC. I have seen comments about people giving up with puzzles that are just to difficult for novices or those that do not want to spend hours solving the hard cryptics, and this clearly fits into that category.

    If I see another puzzle by these setters I will ignore it as I have no desire to do the main cryptic puzzle.

    In summary not a fair challenge for a QC

    1. There is one (regular) setter that I avoid, so I can understand your point of view. However, let’s not begrudge a tough work out two or three times a year for those amongst us seeking a half way house to the 15×15. Invariant
      1. Yes I agree, but I hope , as I said yesterday , that the quick cryptic is kept quick for those of us who actually cannot progress to the main puzzle and are very happy here.

        Diana.

  19. A few unusual words today (WOWEE, NOVELISER, DEBTEE, ALTHEA), but all gettable from the clues, so a steady work through and a satisfying finish for me today.
  20. Well, it’s Friday so one doesn’t expect it to be easy. 8:40 for me. Like most I don’t like names as answers, but perhaps the setters were stuck for words. LAMBADA and SCHUMANN cropped up recently somewhere, but I can’t remember where. Do setters use software to held them fill a grid? Do they all use the same package? MER at NOVELISER.

    COD BEANO

    H

  21. Not sure where to begin with this one. Overall, it’s been a fairly tough week in QC land and this one was no exception.

    It’s fair to say I made an absolute hash of this. I knew it didn’t bode well when I accidentally put the answer for 10ac into 8ac and spent 5 minutes wondering why “Native” didn’t fit 2dn.

    Didn’t like 6ac “Wowee”, 13ac “Althea” (talk about 22ac) nor 12ac “Debtee”. Ended up putting “Well I Decline” for 6dn which I though made sense at the time, but obviously doesn’t in hindsight, screwing up 18ac “Argentina” which I didn’t get. Then, I put “Cataclism” for 16ac just to put a cherry on top.

    One to forget I think.

    FOI – 1ac “Panatella”
    LOI – dnf
    COD – 21ac “Dined”

    Thanks as usual.

    1. I guess you’re too young to remember Windmill in Old Amsterdam

      A little mouse with clogs on
      Well I declare!
      Going clip-clippety-clop on the stair

      1. Unfortunately I’m not too young to remember – but even then I didn’t get it! I will now have that and probably the theme from Van Der Valk going through my head for the rest of the day.
        1. Thanks to Penfold above I’ve now got Up Town Top Ranking running remorselessly in my brain, so he’s got a double ear-worm award today! Nah pop nah style, me strictly roooooots ….
          1. I strictly roots (not me)!

            Didn’t Penelope Pitstop also say ‘Well I declare!’ a few times?

            The setter(s) had Cleo and Liam in their puzzle a couple of weeks ago. Are they crowbarring family members in?

            ~ Nila Palin

  22. I took this to be ‘showing remorse’ thinking of Henry II’s public penance for the murder of Thomas Becket. Now have a ear worm of Windmill in Old Amsterdam!
  23. … along with the others this week, is the simply excellent skills of our two resident Saturday Special setters John and Phil. Never a forced or artificial word, always neat surfaces, often a clever NINA and all with remarkable consistency of standard. Chapeau to both and roll on next weekend’s!

    Cedric

  24. Interesting comments. I’m a QC level solver rather than 15 by 15 – although I do have a go sometimes – and I didn’t find this QC overly hard, just a satisfying activity. I assumed any extra challenge and consequent slowness was due to the unfamiliar setters. Thanks to Margaret and Bob and to the blog.
  25. Please no more from this duo. A rather clumsy effort I felt. Forced and odd words and stretched definitions. Compared with shall we say Izetti these two are not on the same level at all
  26. Got Wowee but failed on Well I Declare, Penance and Leila (put Alice!)

    Struggled with Abnormal Load but got there in the end. Managed Althea and Noveliser.

    FOsI Panatella, Wait a Bit, Goo, Trial

    Not a good week for me but thanks for helpful blogs. I don’t mind failing as long as I’ve solved some difficult clues. Was very slow today though.

  27. I got there eventually on about the fourth attempt. Never heard of DEBTEE, NOVELISE, WAIT-a-BIT, not at all sure about PENANCE = remorse or NUTRITION = ‘food processing’. Two pretty far out girls names as well. Pleased to have finished it, but that is about all.
    Enjoyed BEANO though.
    PlayUpPompey
  28. Oh dear, we struggled with this one. Agree with many of the comments posted – odd words that took a real effort to work out. We finished in 30 minutes – after having 2 attempts at 18A and getting the answer the second time. I like being stretched and don’t want to finish every puzzle without effort – where’s the fun in that? So, thank you Margaret & Bob.

    FOI: panatella
    LOI: beano (but really was a DNF)
    COD: wait a bit

    Thanks Curarist!

  29. Having had a go at writing a few cryptic clues myself I am going to give Margaret and Bob the benefit of the doubt and a word of warning. The use of random forenames in either the wordplay or definition is a bone of contention for many using this site, myself included. The use of rare forenames is particularly irksome. I think WOWEE, NOVELISER and DEBTEE were all getable but unsatisfactory….I can’t say I have spoken or written any of the words before today. I did however like the cluing for my LOI BEANO although the definition will be unknown to some solvers. Thanks curarist for the blog. Just under 15 mins.

    Edited at 2020-11-27 02:23 pm (UTC)

  30. Not easy by any means but despite some obscure words and the odd quibble, turned out to be solvable. 1a went straight in but not much more on first pass. Pretty pleased to get home in 15:40. Liked 6D but now can’t get rid of the little mouse with clogs on.
  31. No bad thing in my book.

    Another one over 10 minutes, 41 seconds over in fact.

    Odd looking grid too.

    WELL I DECLARE went in last.

  32. Much like 5dn I moved very slowly on this one, recording the longest time I can remember to complete at 47 mins, and leaving several unparsed. Wowee and debtee are non-words as far as I’m concerned (surely anyone who is owed a debt is a creditor), although I could just about cope with noveliser. I’m with the other contributors who have commented on names in general and obscure names in particular. NHO of Wait-a-bit although that at least was fairly obvious from the clue. Really didn’t enjoy this one.

    FOI – 9ac LEILA
    LOI – 8ac NUTRITION
    COD – not many contenders today IMO but I liked 18ac BEANO.

  33. Didn’t time this because life kept getting in the way and so I had to keep stopping. This meant that I never really got into the swing of it but, even had I been able to mount a sustained attack, I’m not sure how easy the ride would have been. I did finish it, though, so I’m pleased about that.
    I was okay with PENANCE because, like FrankyAnne, I saw it as “showing remorse” . I wasn’t keen on the two names but, hey-ho. ALTHEA was my LOI. Never heard of the prickly WAIT A BIT, but found it straightaway so no problem, really. Ditto DEBTEE. WOWEE might be a bit GR but it wasn’t hard to get from the wordplay.Very much liked BEANO – raised a chuckle as did the image conjured by a crazed grandma hugging SCHUMANN.
    I’m loath to criticise the setters – I couldn’t begin to set a QC puzzle.
    Thanks, Curarist , for the blog and thanks, too, to Margaret and Bob.
  34. ….certainly different. NHO DEBTEE or WAIT-A-BIT, but, while I agree it was tricky, it was perfectly parsed – and therefore fair. It took me longer than Tuesday’s and Wednesday’s combined though ! I didn’t help myself by solving LEI in my head, then writing “lie”. That caused me to consider (and reject) “nutriment”.

    FOI PANATELLA (a forgotten pleasure)
    LOI BEANO
    COD DINED
    TIME 6:23

  35. I agree with all the comments about obscure words and random names but also I don’t think GOO is necessarily sweet- it just something runny and sticky, isn’t it?
  36. I agree with a lot of other comments about words I have never heard of – noveliser, debtee and even worse wowed! I thought catechism was too obvious as it is religious instruction for Catholic so what else could the answer be! I think penance is ok if the definition is ‘showing remorse’. Not my favourite crossword
  38. Yes, I can see what it means. My complaint is that it is a very obscure word (as witness it is not in Lexico or Chambers on line) and thus not really QC material. At least it was an anagram, I suppose.
  39. My mind was definitely elsewhere this morning, so I wasn’t too surprised when I took the best part of 45mins to finish. It’s something of a relief therefore to now find that I was in good company. Others have commented on the iffy nature of some of the clues but, apart from the random girl names, I didn’t think they were too bad. Certainly unusual, but still gettable. Bob and Margaret should persevere – CoD Beano was a work of art that I’m sure any setter would be pleased to have clued. Chapeau for that. Invariant
  40. Late to comment as I solved early but didn’t have time to come here before going out for the day. Definitely not one for beginners with several obscurities and tricky wordplay. But as an introduction to the 15×15 it provides a stretch for the QC solver. As an experienced solver, I found this very tricky for a QC… indeed I’ve found some 15x15s easier. DEBTEE I thought rather obscure and NOVELISER and WAIT-A-BIT not much less. My slowest for many a moon. 8:47.
  41. A tough puzzle at the end of a long day at the end of a long week. A fast time was always unlikely and I eventually came in at 64:39 (although I changed DEBTER to DEBTEE after I’d stopped my watch). In some ways it’s enjoyable to wrestle with unusual and obscure clues and at least I didn’t have to resort to any alphabet trawls, but there did seem to be a few too many things that were either unknown or only vaguely known. As well as those words other people have mentioned, I hadn’t heard of the cigar and had to pull LEI and CATECHISM from that place in the back of my mind which contains stuff I didn’t realise I had put there. All good experience though, so thanks M & B and Curarist
  42. As people have said, it was all fairly clued, but we just found it unpleasant – with a hard puzzle there is satisfaction when you get the answer, here too many answers were “it must be that, ugh”. We seem to be getting more of these words lately which may technically exist, but nobody would ever use – I would be amazed if anyone has ever used the word debtee, but will now watch out for creditee in a future puzzle (by the same construction, are Margaret and Bob solvees? Does that make us settees?)
  43. Agree this was a bit patchy. I had to learn some new words – debtee, noveliser, lambada, Althea – although I resolved them ok but think the first two are’ a bit iffy’. Had no problem with Lei as I remembered this from an earlier QC. A MER at wowee even tho I now find it in Chambers; also at goo. Share the mixed views at penance too. DNK wait-a-bit but it fitted…

    FOI 1a Panatella; LOI 14d Lambada; COD 18a Beano for the smile.

  45. Returning to QC after a break and we rather enjoyed this puzzle. We’re not quick, just plod on, and while the odd clue raised an eyebrow (notably NOVELISER and PENANCE), there were some beauties in there too.
    In our house Althea means Althea Braithwaite, the children’s writer who sadly died in September. Desmond the Dinosaur, anyone of a certain age?
    Tim (not that Tim)
  46. I agree with Merlin55.. There’s nothing wrong with a spectrum of difficulty in the QC but there should be a psychological reward for smashing the hard clues. When the penny dropped here the answers were dull and rather fussy (Althea for God’s sake). Let’s have no more of Margaret and Bob.
  47. I rarely get upset about the level of the puzzle and take the good with the bad as I am learning. This puzzle was absolutely not fit for a QC. I have seen comments about people giving up with puzzles that are just to difficult for novices or those that do not want to spend hours solving the hard cryptics, and this clearly fits into that category.

    If I see another puzzle by these setters I will ignore it as I have no desire to do the main cryptic puzzle.

    In summary not a fair challenge for a QC

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