Times Cryptic 25393 – Phew too!

Following on from Wednesday’s ordeal I’m as relieved as Uncle Yap yesterday to have got off quite lightly on my blogging day. This is mostly straightforward stuff with only one unknown but easily gettable answer and a couple of clues that leave something be desired if I have understood them correctly. Otherwise it was quite a lively solve and I’m grateful to the setter for not burying everything in a lot of unnecessary verbiage.

Across
1 DINOSAUR – A, SON (boy),I inside RUDe (not completely disrespectful) all reversed.
6 PROUST – PapeR, OUST (get rid of).
9 SPAT – S (succeeded), PAT (slick).
10 INJUNCTION – IN (batting), JUNCTION (meeting).
11 QUEENSWARE – NSW (part of Oz), A (area) inside QUEER (unusual), E (English). I can’t say I’ve heard of this but it seems the most famous examples are in the Wedgwood range which I am familiar with and just didn’t know its name. I bunged in ‘Queensland’ here early on and lived to regret it. I suspect I was not alone in this.
13 ALLYpALLY
14 RECORDER – RECORD (CD), ER (Queen). This is one of two clues I’m not overly happy with as I can’t see that a recorder necessarily has anything to do with charts, but possibly there’s a meaning or context I have not thought of.
16 ONE-TWO – Anagram of WENT inside 0-0 (game without goals). The definition is ‘passing move’, a reference that presumably can be applied to many sports.
18 STYMIE – ST (way), then I’M reversed inside YE. This can simply mean ‘obstruct’ now but according to SOED its origin is in golf rather than snooker as mentioned in the clue, although of course that’s pefectly valid.
20 ULTIMATEgUiLt TrIp, MATE
22 AFAR – A, RAF (service) reversed.
24 SADDLEBACK – S (second #1), ADDLE (confuse), BACK (second #2).
26 FREEBOOTER – BEER (drink) reversed inside FOOTER (game).
28 TAIL – TAmIL
29 LESSON – Definition: ‘example’, sounds like ‘lessen’ (shrink). This is the other clue I’m not happy with as it’s surely possible to make a perfectly valid case for LESSEN — or vice versa if applicable.
30 PROTRUDE – ROT (more pants!) inside PRUDE (prig).
Down
2 IMPRUDENT – IMP (whippersnapper) followed by anagram of TURNED.
3 ON THE GO – ON (over), T (time), H (husband), E GO (I).
4 ARIEScARIES (tooth decay not caught at first).
5 RAJ – JAR (clash) reversed.
6 PENTECOST – PE (gymnastics) followed by anagram of CONTEST.
7 OUTRAGE – AmusinG, inside OUTRE (bizarre).
8 SEOUL – Sounds like “soul” (music). The capital of South Korea.
12 AGROUND – Anagram of ON A DRUG.
15 DRESS DOWN – DRESS (comb), DOWN (floor/on floor).
17 WITH CHILD – H (heroin) inside ITCH (long) inside WILD (furious).
19 MARVELS –  The poet Andrew MARVELL (1621-1678) with his second L changed to S.
21 MOBSTER – MO (second), anagram of BEST, Robin.
23 FURZE – Sounds like ‘firs’.
25 LARGO – LARGe (mostly great), O (over). Handel’s famous Largo is taken from “Ombra mai fu” the opening aria in “Serse” or “Xerxes”.
27 TOP – Double definition.

33 comments on “Times Cryptic 25393 – Phew too!”

  1. 56 minutes, but with QUEENSWARE completely misparsed (and indeed under-parsed): I had it as Queensland with the ‘land’ bit changed to WAR + E, where ‘war’ was a very, um, rare word for ‘unusual’.

    I share Jack’s mystification over RECORDER and [on edit] the word order and the phrasing (where ‘for’ may be interpreted as ‘to receive [the answer]’) would seem to support LESSON at 29. Since I did’t do this online, though, I have no idea what the mandated solution is.

    Enjoyed this – just glad to finish after the last two days – with WITH CHILD (where I was trying to work around ‘wood’ the golf club) just bumping out the excellent anagram AGROUND.

    Edited at 2013-02-08 06:46 am (UTC)

    1. I have no problem with recorder as a maker of charts but I do challenge “CD = record” although I did write it in.
      Unfortunately I was also seduced by Queensland and further impeded by a hasty “intimate” instead of “ultimate” so a DNF.
      I am now writing a hundred lines “I must read the clue properly”
      1. Putting in ‘intimate’ also held me up, even though it shouldn’t have, as it was all getting a bit pally (‘friend’ doing double duty). Record for CD often comes up – the Oxford Dictionary of English legitimises it with its sub-definition: ‘a piece or collection of music reproduced on a record or on another medium‘, as in ‘my favourite record, which works I think, as a reflection of how most people actually talk.

        Edited at 2013-02-08 07:55 am (UTC)

  2. The printer on an ECG or something like that is called a “chart recorder” I think. So it is “one making the charts”.

    I had LESSEN, so yes, perfectly valid.

  3. I like that “mostly straightforward stuff” – the stuff that wasn’t in the “mostly” pushed my time to 32 minutes. WITH CHILD and QUEENSWARE in particular stayed fully cross-checked but unresolved for an unconscionable time at the end.
    I allow I shrugged at RECORDER: one such might just as well make charts as anything else, but it did seem a bit loose. Some of us fogeys will go on calling these new fangled CD things records indefinitely, even though it’s difficult to keep the stylus on track.
    Just about every clue was a hold-up on the way to crossword Nirvana today: apart from the two above, PROUST needed a fair bit of churning and makes it as my CoD, though MARVELS was a rare smile inducer.
    I’ve never been sure how to pronounce SEOUL – it usually comes out a bit Clousseau and not much like “soul”. I’m grateful to the cryptic for getting the Y and I right in STYMIE.

    Edited at 2013-02-08 09:06 am (UTC)

  4. I took RECORDER to be one who made the music charts by selling a volume of records rather than a statistician of some sort.

    I wrote LESSO/EN in the grid for 29A – could be either so far as I can see. I trust all regular readers got FURZE after my tip off a couple of weeks ago!

    I thought 21D MOBSTER a nice clue. 20 minutes to solve.

    1. I’m an engineer, and over the years have used hundreds of chart-recorders for gathering data, as was mentioned above. Didn’t even blink writing that in. Surely scientists use them, too? Or did back in the day, before digital recording.
      Rob
  5. 15m.
    QUEENSWARE was unknown, and I very much wanted to bung in QUEENSLAND. Fortunately I hestiated.
    I was puzzled by RECORDER too, but like Jimbo took it to be a reference to a pop star.
    I initially put in STIMEY, which slowed me down a bit.
    I don’t think 29ac is ambiguous: the “talking” clearly applies to “shrink”. If you construe the clue the other way round the “talking” bit would have to apply to “for example”, which might give you “as”, but doesn’t give you “lesson”.

    Edited at 2013-02-08 10:26 am (UTC)

  6. 20:25 after being held up by the elephant trap (9 letters starting with Q, a part of Australia at the start of the clue, what else can it be except Queensland…a proper lesson for the unwary, that). And speaking of lessons, hmmm. I weighed it up, and plumped for LESSON as the slightly more convincing alternative, but I wouldn’t have bet actual money on it being the right choice. A look at the leader board suggests that a lot of distinguished solvers went the other way, and if this was used on Finals Day there would definitely be a stewards’ enquiry.
    1. What do you think the stewards would say? Perhaps I’m just being thick but I can’t for the life of me see how you get “lessen” from “talking, for example”.
      1. The introductory monologue at the competition goes along the lines of “We always welcome appeals to the Crossword Editor if you think you have a valid alternative answer to the one given by the setter…in 40 years he’s never once agreed with such an appeal, of course, but we welcome them all the same…”

        The more I think about it, the more I think LESSON is to be favoured, but if you put in LESSEN you might parse it as:
        “Shrink”(=definition)
        “talking for example” means “a way of saying a word which means example”. It ignores the punctuation, of course, but that is quite normal in dissecting a clue.

        I’m not necessarily entirely convincing myself with this, but I think it’s at least possible, if rather contorted…

  7. I’m familiar with chart recorders as I have one in the form of a barograph.
    Eventually decided correctly on LESSON, as ‘for’ could only be parsed as indicating the definition, as keriothe has said.
  8. 25 mins here, slowed down by writing in STIMEY. My last one in was QUEENSWARE though, although I had the E at the end early so didn’t fall into the QUEENSLAND trap. I never did see the cryptic though, wondering how LAND was changed to WARE! I think 29ac is unambiguous if you don’t ignore the punctuation.
    1. Observing the punctuation is fine with me…until the next time we have to ignore it in order to arrive at the right answer.
  9. Even without the punctuation I struggle to make “talking for example” mean “a way of saying a word which means example”. “Talking example” might mean that.
    In any event, there are two possible interpretations of this clue: one which parses perfectly clearly, and the other which requires an interpretation of the wordplay which is stretched at best.
    I would bet quite a lot of money on the outcome.
    1. I would tend to agree, and that’s what common sense would dictate (even though it’s obviously not an explicit rule of crosswording that where two readings are available, the more convincing one is 100% right and the stretched one is 100% wrong).
  10. I had lots of distractions, so didn’t get into a rhythm with this one. Total time was an hour, but actual time spent solving clues was about 45 minutes.

    I wondered about 29 briefly, but the comma steers one to LESSON, and keriothe has given a convincing explanation why LESSEN cannot be right. Without the comma a case could have been made for LESSEN.

    17 & 19 were excellent clues.

    I notice ‘pants’ yet again. Seems to be going viral, as they say.
    Incidentally, my dictionary (Chambers) has QUEENS WARE has two words.

  11. Although LESSON is the right answer would it have been asking too much for the editor to have changed the clue to read “Talking shrink, for example” to remove any possible ambiguity. I dislike clues like this at the best of times. No prizes for guessing that I went for LESSEN without giving it enough thought.

    Andy B.

  12. Found this am almighty struggle in the NE corner. Got stuck there for a very long time and gave up with three missing (Raj, Seoul and Injunction). Should have got the first two and would probably have got the third with all the checkers in place, particularly the J. Oh well…
    For a long time I couldn’t rid my mind of Queensland for 11A even though I knew it was wrong. That caused inordinate delay getting Pentecost. I’m another who wrongly chose Lessen at 27A.
    Some excellent clues today – in particular Aground, Ally and One-Two to name but a few.
  13. Hmmm.. plenty of complaints as ever, but I find it hard to see the case for them today. To anyone who put in Queensland, well, I thought of that too but didn’t put it in because the fact that it doesn’t in any way fit the clue, Oz reference apart, put me off rather. It just won’t parse!
    I can see a glimmering of a case for lessen, but given the choice, lesson surely does fit a lot better?
    I have long suspected that our comments here do have some effect on setters, though not always perhaps in the way hoped for. I am certain that a rash of dodgy homophones was put in last year as a specific response to various compaints about demiotic schwas etc etc (or whatever 🙂 – and I now think the current pants pandemic is our doing too..
    But ignore me, just the back talking no doubt; it is better today, but I am told I mustn’t spend time sitting down, which makes using the desktop (and other things) a tricky operation!
    1. I don’t think anyone has complained about QUEENSLAND/QUEENSWARE and of course the clue has only one correct answer when examined in detail, but after all the verbose clues we have endured of late there is a temptation for solvers with even half an eye on the clock to bung in what appears to be an obvious answer and move on. The problem, if it existed, was entirely of our own making and there’s no room for any criticism of the setter.

      Edited at 2013-02-08 04:39 pm (UTC)

      1. You are quite right Jack, I should not have used the word complaint in regard to queensetc. and I agree with all you say
  14. heheheh, I’m waiting for a setter who has given me a serve before over the correct ordering in homophone clues to chime in – I have since learned my LESSON.

    Had to sneak scribbles in this during meetings this morning but rather liked it – very crafy clue for QUEENSWARE, my last in, and made me start looking for a pangram but it appears we’re an X short (maybe the Times rejected X-PAT).

    Rare morning – QUEENSWARE was the only one that went in from wordplay alone.

  15. Thought I’d managed one all correct for a change… until I came here and learnt my LESSON!
  16. Disappointing DNF finally coming aground in NW and conceding defeat after my allotted 60m. I had 4 unfinished but none I felt was ungettable; I was just thick. My scalp hangs from too many setters belts after a poor week. No doubt Saturday will compound the misery! I did like ONETWO which took ages to unpick not helped by trying to justify NIL NIL for far too long. No scalp left but hat definitely off!
  17. I have to admit to a ludicrous untimely and wild child. It’s the penalty of doing these things after work and a long drive. A question-mark at the end of 14 might have been in order. Some nice clues.
  18. 17:55 for me, flagging badly at the end of my second crossword of the day while still recovering from lurgy, and spending the last 5 minutes or so on QUEENSWARE which I hadn’t heard of and where I somehow got it into my head that “unusual” must = RARE.

    There really is no alternative to LESSON for 29ac. Anyone who imagines they’d get away with arguing that “talking for example” = “a way of saying a word which means example” in the Championship is living in cloud-cuckoo-land!

    Some nice clues.

    1. Welcome. “Pants” can mean “rubbish / nonsense” in British slang so by extension “rot”.

      This appears to be a fairly recent usage and it hasn’t even reached the latest OED that I have access to on-line yet, but it is in the Concise Oxford amongst other recent dictionaries.

      “Pants” has turned up quite a lot in Times puzzles of late and has been the subject of some comment, even some complaint, from contributors here, hence my writing “more pants!” in my explanation in the blog.

      Hope you will stick around and join in future discussions. Why not sign up to Live Journal and register a user name and userpic? It costs nothing.

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