28018 Thursday, 1st July 2021 An interesting cocktail down the middle.

85 comments on “28018 Thursday, 1st July 2021 An interesting cocktail down the middle.”

1. You’ve got a T too many, Z; it’s CHAN (simple melody briefly) in ENTERS.
2. DUST BUNNY and CAMPHOR (tree) both ninja-turtled from Miyazaki’s My Neighbour Totoro

   I just wanted to say that NIGHTSHADE is an excellent clue

3. I had an R at the end too, but This is just a poor clue! A BACKHANDER is certainly plausible both to describe a tennis shot and a backhanded compliment.
   1. I dithered over R/D, but went with D both because BACKHANDED can mean ‘dubious’ while BACKHANDER can’t, and because the noun BACKHANDER doesn’t describe but refers. But no, not a great clue.
4. Another backhander, same reasoning as brnchn: a backhanded compliment is called a backhander, defined as “dubious description”. Backhander second definition as “element of rally”. Worked for me, never considered it could be anything else, alas. Otherwise felt a bit quirky and interesting. Liked the sandman, moor, and arsenic as I saw it instantly, for once.
   Thanks setter and blogger.
5. Is hung with bloom along the bough,

   30 mins pre-brekker mostly stuck in the SE. I liked it, chiefly ‘left for the UK’ and the surface for Nightshade.
   NHO Size=Gum. I put BackhandeD.
   Thanks setter and Z.

6. 29 minutes and all correct with fingers crossed as I plumped for BACKHANDED rather than BACKHANDER. Other than the definition ‘dubious’ I had no idea what was going on in that clue, which is very odd since tennis is the only sport I follow with any degree of enthusiasm and Wimbledon is in progress. My hesitancy over that added 5 minutes to my solving time.
7. Some nice stuff today — I particularly liked the very sly definition for ARSENIC. As Lou said, NIGHTSHADE is very good as well. I finished with IMPURE where it took me some time to see the parsing.

   I’m glad to have avoided the BACKHANDER pitfall. It was my initial thought, but I wasn’t happy with the definition, which is when I thought it had to be BACKHANDED for “dubious”.

8. But with several unparsed (GUMDROP, IMPURE, SANDMAN) – thanks for the explanations. Thought for a bit about BACKHANDED/R but agree with Pootle above.

   Liked CHERRY and EGG.

9. Another BACKHANDER here, can we appeal?

   Thanks z and setter.

10. Yesterday my vocab felt poor
    I’d not met ASTRAKHAN once before
    Roman stars were a rout
    (Hey i am astro-nowt)
    But the rest was just really obscure

    The hardest today was CAMPHOR
    Most were nice simple words e.g. MOOR
    So though it i raced
    The grid solved with much HASTE
    A contrast in standards for sure

11. My time coincides with a very memorable date of course. For a brief period I, rather vainly, would make a comment here re the historical date that coincided with my solving time. So if I completed in 14:15 the Battle of Agincourt would get a mention. The idea didn’t catch on either with me or anyone here.

    There were a few problems. Firstly, I don’t think I got one response! Secondly, not a lot happened in many of the dates that happened to match my time. But the main problem was that an awful lot of the time I was unable to comment – as I can’t see into the future!

    1. Merlin does this on the QC blog.
12. …one wrong: BACKHANDER. I’m with brnchn on this one. It’s a poor clue. I reckon the R ending is equally valid.
    Nevertheless there were some nice clues: NEARSIDE and ARSENIC, particularly, but my favourite was DUST BUNNY because I like the use of “Victorian” to denote the Australian slang for toilet..
    Two poisons today; is our setter telling us something?
    1. Came here to find out why DUNNY is Victorian. Gets me every time! Also liked ARSENIC.
13. Nice crossword, shame about 24ac .. though I did decide the R version did not fit either definition as well as the D one.
14. Dnf. Backhander too. Just made many others through guessing.
    Near, backhanded, size, dust bunny.
    Give me strength.
    Probably ok for a friday but this just puts me off trying the 15x15s
    1. Postage stamps go through the sizing-process last – applying the gum. Near was used by my Lowestoft grandfather – I know, it’s quite near though. ‘The Last Picture Show’ featured dust bunnies. ‘Backhanded’ went with ‘Compliment’.

       1. I treat the 15×15 rather like a high school exam. Anyone expecting it to be enjoyable is slightly delusional.
    2. norfolknogood – its Friday very soon good luck ‘bor!
15. I’m with Mr. Rolfe and others on this. One can argue it both ways. Time 41 minutes

    FOI SPARKLER

    LOI DUST BUNNY – I thought as much, but held back

    COD 19dn CAMPHOR – hornet – reminds me of Repulse Bay HK
    – huge queen – the size of a helicopter!

    WOD 17dn RIDGEPOLE

    Do we have a pairing NINA hereabouts?
    BACKHANDEd-COMPLIMENT; HEBRIDES-BIGAMY; CHERRY-MANGO; FRACAS-RIOT; NIGHTSHADE-ARSENIC; PROFITEER-BACKHANDER; SLIM-RIDGEPOLE; CAMPHOR-SANDMAN; RUM-EGG (islands); IMPURE-NEARSIDE. Which only leaves GREEN TEA and DUST BUNNY…?

    1. LUNCH and TEA
    2. SAND and DUST
16. 13:29. I really liked this: another wordplay puzzle, and some familiar but unusual words to add a bit of interest.
    I didn’t notice the ambiguity at 24ac fortunately but I can’t see anything wrong with BACKHANDER as an answer. It’s in Collins as both an ‘indirect attack’ and a tennis shot.
    1. Are you thinking of the definition as an &lit for BACKHANDER to work?
       1. No, it’s a DD. A BACKHANDER is a BACKHANDED statement, so if ‘dubious’ is a valid definition of the latter then ‘dubious description’ has to be a valid definition of the former.
          1. Ah yes, I see it now. Thankfully I didn’t see it earlier!
17. I seem to have been miles slower those I usually compare myself with. At least I plumped for BACKHANDED, always accompanied by compliment in my youth when not a table-tennis shot. We didn’t play much tennis. 52 minutes with LOI ENCHANTERS. COD to NEARSIDE. DUST BUNNY was a semi-biff. I knew the Aussie bog but not the bit of fluff. Sums life up really. We had Mr Sandman bringing us a dream recently, which was as well. I enjoyed this but did find it tough. Thank you Z and setter.
18. Which is quicker than yesterday, though the Snitch is much higher. I made the right choice on Backhanded, but it was touch-and-go. Ridgepole and Dust Bunny both had to be squeezed out from the clueing. I see now the definition for Nearside, though I didn’t when I put it in. Thanks to setter and blogger.
19. Found the top half not so bad, though didn’t know GUM = size, but several in the lower half were lost on me.

    No idea that As = ARSENIC.

    SANDMAN popped up just as I was in the process of sighing that SYNONYM might be the only word that fit the checkers.

    LOI NEARSIDE as did not know that meaning of NEAR.

    As boltonwanderer suggests, there are one or two here that I compare my usually-similar times with — I was soundly thrashed today!!

20. 25 mins
    Got backhanded okay.
    Thanks, z.
21. Another BACKHANDER. B*gger! 36:38. Thanks Z.
22. Is that why the ‘Dust Bunny’ is with us today! I enjoyed horryd’s Hebrides and Bigamy comment. COD to Arsenic. Backhanded was the most awesomely vague clue. 14:24 minutes
23. Main obscurity for me was RIDGEPOLE, showing my lack of architectural knowledge. Not sure I’ve ever come across CAMPHOR in real life, and from the description it sounds like I’d remember it.

    Enjoyed the mass poisoning. 5m 13s.

    1. I think RIDGEPOLE is better known in a camping context as a part of a tent rather than architecturally, although it is that too as I have leant this morning.
       1. Ah! In which case I think I’ve manhandled many a ridgepole, just had no idea that’s what I was doing.
24. 31 mins, with a reasonably confident BACKHANDED. The R ending seems to fail both definitions as it isn’t a description of an element of a rally, but the element itself. The second definition clearly calls for an adjective, not a noun. Lured in by a sprint start in the NW before getting bogged down in the swampy 20s. All very fair on review.

    Edited at 2021-07-01 10:50 am (UTC)

    1. For the answer to be BACKHANDER the first definition is ‘dubious description’ and the second ‘element of rally’.
       1. But “dubious description” isn’t one of the meanings of BACKHANDER — at least not in any source I can find.
          1. By the same token ‘dubious’ isn’t a definition of BACKHANDED. If you accept if for one I think you have to accept it for the other.
             1. That is precisely how BACKHANDED is defined in Chambers and the SOED.
                1. OK but the point remains. BACKHANDER is the noun form of BACKHANDED, so any definition you accept of the latter must apply to the former, provided you accept that the noun form applies to an indirectly derogatory comment (which most dictionaries actually don’t but Collins does).
                   1. There are plenty of words where the noun has a narrower range of application than the verb or adjective from which it derives or that is derived from it. I suspect the noun in this case has been back-formed from adjective and you cannot assume that it has carried over every context.. For example, a BACKHANDER is unambiguously used as a synonym for a bribe, but there is no adjectival form for the same thing: a “backhanded payment” simply doesn’t mean anything — at least not in the normal sense of a bribe.
                      1. I accept that, and as I said most of the dictionaries don’t recognise BACKHANDER as a noun form as required here.
                         However Collins does, so for crossword purposes I think we have to accept it.
                         And when I look at the Collins definitions for BACKHANDER: ‘an indirect attack’ or (in the American part but strangely labelled as ‘British, informal’) ‘an uncomplimentary remark’ it seems clear to me that this is the noun form of the adjective defined in Chambers as ‘indirect, dubious, sarcastic, derogatory in effect‘ (my emphasis).

                         Edited at 2021-07-03 11:33 am (UTC)

                         1. I am not sure what to make of the Collins website which seems to be citing US sources listing it as British usage without offering any authority for it. Nonetheless, it doesn’t undermine my original point that BACKHANDER cannot be defined as “dubious description” and is not so defined (even by Collins). “Description” has to attach to the tennis shot and BACKHANDED is the only word that fits both definitions.
                            1. We’ll have to agree to disagree. It’s clear to me that the noun meaning in Collins corresponds directly to the adjective meaning which Chambers defines using the word ‘dubious’. The fact Collins doesn’t actually use that word is neither here nor there. If you accept it as a definition for the adjective you can’t logically reject it for the direct nounal equivalent provided you accept this equivalence.
                               Of course you can reject the equivalence, which most of the dictionaries do, but we normally accept these things if they’re recognised by one of the usual dictionaries (which include Collins).

                               Edited at 2021-07-03 01:06 pm (UTC)

                               1. Well we agree on the facts, just not their interpretation. I don’t see how you get “dubious description” from even Collins’s definition of backhander; it simply doesn’t work. But there we are. Thank you for the civilised discussion.
                                  1. I have no problem getting from BACKHANDER = indirect attack = backhanded comment/description.
                                     The main problem for me is that ‘dubious’ doesn’t mean BACKHANDED!
                                  2. Both are factually incorrect.. There is no way BACKHANDER means “dubious description” and BACKHANDED is defined in Chambers as “dubious”.
                                  3. Both are matters of opinion. I have mine, you have yours.
                                  4. Not really. I can assert that BACKHANDER means “marmalade”, but it doesn’t. And you can assert that BACKHANDED isn’t defined in Chambers as “dubious”, but it is.
                                  5. 1) a dictionary definition is not a fact.
                                     2) Chambers does not define BACKHANDED as ‘dubious’. You can’t necessarily pick out one word from a lengthy definition and retain something valid. In this case ‘derogatory in effect’ is intrinsic to the meaning of the word. There is nothing in the Chambers definition of ‘dubious’ that suggests anything close to BACKHANDED, because on their own the two are not synonymous.
                                     I can assert that a BACKHANDER is a BACKHANDED comment, because it’s in Collins.

                                     Edited at 2021-07-03 03:55 pm (UTC)

                                  6. 1) The existence or otherwise of a dictionary definition is a provable fact

                                     2) Chamber’s entry for BACKHANDED reads:

                                     backˈhanded (adjective)

                                     (of a compliment, etc) indirect, dubious, sarcastic, derogatory in effect

                                     The existence of this definition is thus a fact

                                     3) Backhander is nowhere defined as “Dubious description”, even in Collins. This is also a fact (at least until proven otherwise).

                                     Edited at 2021-07-03 04:04 pm (UTC)

                                  7. As I said you can’t extract one word from that definition and assume it stands on it own as an adequate definition on its own. In this case it doesn’t.
                                     Of course Collins doesn’t define a backhander as dubious description, or anything else. Dubious doesn’t (on its own) mean backhanded.
                                  8. You may not agree with Chambers, but i can’t see how you can interpret this entry as saying anything other than “dubious” can be a synonym for “backhanded”.
                                  9. In which case, since BACKHANDER is the nounal equivalent of BACKHANDED, a dubious comment, expression, description or statement is, ipso facto, a BACKHANDER.

                                     Edited at 2021-07-03 04:23 pm (UTC)

                                  10. I’m afraid language doesn’t work like that but we are just going round in circles. I’ll leave you to your opinion and stick to the facts. 🙂
                                  11. If you think language and meaning are a matter of facts, then I’m afraid you are the one who doesn’t understand how it works.
                                  12. True, hence we defer to the opinion of dictionaries for some purposes, including crosswords — even when their opinion runs counter to our own.
25. I forgot to say that although I’d heard the term DUST BUNNY I had always assumed it was some sort of cleaning product and am rather surprised to find that it isn’t. I guess I was thinking of ‘dust buster’.
26. DNK “dunny” but with the checking letters and the def it couldn’t be anything else. It’s a pity we can’t have a deuce and a replay on 24a because it’s borderline. As others I only settled for the D in the end because of the preceding COMPLIMENT. 20.14
27. Another BACKHANDER hits the net. After yesterday’s TUMBRIL this is becoming a week to forget. No complaints. Should have been more alert. Thought this a very good puzzle;
    particularly CAMPHOR, RIDGEPOLE, NEARSIDE and NIGHTSHADE.

    The “odd” S and M is nicely ambiguous in SANDMAN.

    Thanks to z and the setter.

    1. Dear old Dan – much missed. His “Oooh,I say!” was often followed by “a peach of a shot!”

       The days of Dan and Jack (Kramer) in the commentary box have never been matched. And the tennis was better too, and the Wimbledon weather. Or perhaps that’s just viewed through the rosy specs of time.

       Edited at 2021-07-01 12:41 pm (UTC)

       1. Indeed. I’m not particularly a tennis fan, but I lived in Southfields in the 1980s/90s and the atmosphere during Wimbledon fortnight was great fun.
28. Went for backhander like so many above. Thanks Horryd for pointing out the corresponding words. He/brides and bigamy particularly good. If only I’d seen the theme I would’ve put backhanded
    24’56”
29. 28.37 with a lot of time spent on arsenic, nearside, backhander(d) and ridgepole. All came together when I got nearside. The others followed swiftly. Like the blogger, I also put in backhander. I’m not sure backhanded works any better.

    You have a backhander in a rally not a backhanded but there is a backhanded compliment not a backhander , though the latter is definitely associated with a corrupt or dubious payment.

    Ah well, I suppose it’s one of those how many angels can dance on the head of a pin discussions. Thanks setter and blogger.

30. One of those old fashioned combinations of very easy and tricky, so that you think you’re rattling off a nice easy one, and then come across clues that are looking for the s and m of some. At least it wasn’t lewd!
31. I never even thought of BACKHANDER, and while I can see the ambiguity I feel that BACKHANDED is clearly the better solution. “Dubious description” is a very poor definition for “backhander”, and it leaves the awkward link word “of” sitting there doing nothing.
    1. Of often sits in the middle of a clue doing nothing. As does for. As does in. As does as. As for dubious description/backhander not being synonyms, I suspect that depends on your geographical location. Works perfectly here (but isn’t in the dictionaries).
       1. Yes, but ‘[wordplay] for [definition]’ or ‘[definition] as [wordplay]’ make some kind of sense. ‘[Definition] of [definition]’ does not make sense.
32. ….I found it a joyless experience, and I really can’t be bothered submitting online

    NHO DUST BUNNY, while BACKHANDED is a really dumb clue.

    However, my biggest gripe is with BIGAMY, which doesn’t really work on any level. If a man (just for example) marries two other persons simultaneously, the likelihood is that those two are blissfully unaware of the crime — so partners in crime they most certainly are not. And if we consider this bad man in isolation, he only has two partners, not a trio. Setter trying too hard to be clever IMHO.

    FOI LOAN
    LOI SANDMAN
    COD ARSENIC
    TIME 17:53

    1. I think you need to lift and separate the PARTNERS and the CRIME. Then CRIME is just the literal, and the PARTNERS are just that.
       1. I’ll buy that.
33. I was stuck there a good while because that definition of “size” did not come up under definitions for GUM, so I’m glad to know what was going on there. Also hesitated to put in SANDMAN for a long time, though I very much wanted to (it is, or was, my nom de chanson when I do/did numbers in English with—sigh—my olde karaoke krewe) till I twigged the parsing. Opted for BACKHANDED, and guessed it had something to do with some sport or other!
34. 16.10. I seem to have been on pretty good form today. It helped that I only saw backhanded and never even considered the alternative. The top half fairly flew in. A handful in the bottom half; camphor, ridgepole and sandman slowed me down though (I found it impossible to enter sandman and not think of the Metallica song). Suspicious deaths, left for the UK and the Victorian loo were all very good.
35. Bigamy doesn’t involve three partners though does it? Three individuals certainly, but unless you’re talking about consenting bigamy in states where it is permitted (and therefore not a crime), there is otherwise no relationship between two of the three parties. Indeed they’re almost always unaware of each other. (Mr Grumpy)
36. 55 minutes which I didn’t really enjoy, with overly oblique clues like the one for BIGAMY and a plethora of obscure but otherwise unexceptional ones like the ones for NEARSIDE and DUST BUNNY (I saw very quickly that the first word would be DUST, but couldn’t do anything with B???Y until I found the middle N). ARSENIC was very clever, but of course using the chemical symbol for it is almost a cliché. COD to NIGHTSHADE and the clever weaving of DEATHS into it.
37. Or, before you comment you could read the discussion, where this point was fully discussed
    1. I’m making a different point. In bigamy there are only two different partners for one individual.
       ‘Lifting and separating’ partners and crime in the clue still leaves an inaccurate ‘trio of partners’.

       That might be arguable in consenting or permitted bigamy where the two ‘bigamees’ form a de facto partnership in furtherance of their own interests. But then if it’s not a crime in the first place, it’s a redundant discussion. (Mr Grumpy)

38. I was another BACKHANDER so a pink square. I never even thought twice about it since it didn’t occur to me that it didn’t mean a backhanded compliment.
39. 13:48 but another BACKHANDER. Grr.
40. Right, and Collins tells us that a backhander is a backhanded comment.
    1. But not a dubious description. Whereas Chambers clearly says dubious can be a synonym for backhanded. I defer to both. You seem to defer to neither.

       But, really, there are only so many times we can repeat ourselves to no effect. Let’s call it a day.

       1. You won’t find ‘dodgy’ in the definition for ‘iffy’, or vice versa, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t synonyms. The word ‘dubious’ doesn’t appear in other definitions of ‘backhanded’. The fact that the Collins definition of backhander doesn’t include the word ‘dubious’ is neither here nor there. It’s the nounal equivalent of backhanded, so if you accept it in one context I can see no reason not to accept it in the other. If a backhanded comment is a dubious comment, then so is a backhander.
          I’m not questioning that BACKHANDED is a valid answer (it’s what I put) but I can see no reason to disallow BACKHANDER, as you seem to want to do based on a misguidedly slavish devotion to the particular words used in a particular dictionary.
41. Worse than my usual 1.5 days but liked it well enough in the end. Another backhander but also a left-hander so always likely to lean the wrong way. Did not know dust bunny or sandman (although easily guessed). Can’t think of a common abbreviation using Br (instead of B) for British (instead of Britain).

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