24577

Author   petebiddlecombePosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Solving time: 7:52

I’m going to begin with the premise that this reasonably easy puzzle should satisfy the sterner critics around here with its good surface readings and some good clues, and hope that doesn’t start off an argument. Highlights for me were the long hidden word, a gentle bit of Latin and literature at 22A, and the appearance of both WORKING CLASS and INVERTED SNOB. The latter’s job-sharing aspect made it the clue of the day for me. There’s a mild whiff of old chestnut about 1, 16, 20, 25, 3, 6 and 18 but 4 of these are double definitions, where originality requires a stroke of genius or some obscure meaning.

Across
1 PREMISES = property (real estate), and propositions from which logical arguments start their progression to their conclusions
9 today’s deliberate omission
10 (sw)EDEN – here’s our leader during his successful election campaign, a year or two before the Suez crisis which ended his political career.
11 DISINHERITED = (in desert I hid)*
13 SCORER – first of several double definitions
14 ACTIVISM = (as victim)* – a mild frisson of danger here, as the fodder could in theory have been (victim is)*, but as any Scrabble player will tell you, 3 I’s and a V isn’t promising
15 SPIN-OFF, or SPIN OFF = ‘leaves the road’ for the second def. A clue that might have started with the road safety message “Tiredness kills. Take a break“
16 ADDRESS – another double def. It might have been fun to follow it up with “Pay attention to what’s on post (6)” for NOTICE.
20 FLOUNDER – another double def – as “Flounder typically grow to a length of 12.5 cm to 37.5 cm (5 to 15 in)” (wikipedia), one wonders a little what “small” is based on, but on a fishy scale, it’s closer to the common minnow’s 8-10cm than the whale shark’s 8m.
22 CAESAR – alluding to the line “Et tu, Brute” in Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar
23 WO(R)KING CLASS – referring to this Surrey town where apparently the Martians make their first appearance in H G Wells’s “The War of the Worlds”.
25 N OR M = the “choice between central (in the alphabet) characters”, and probably the biggest chestnut here, though I can understand that it’s hard to resist.
26 REP=(commercial) traveller,HRASE=hears*
27 RARE BIRD = (barrier)*,D=Democarat
 
Down
2 RYDER=”rider”,C=about,UP=mounted (on a horse) – here’s the contest for any sport-haters who’ve never heard of it
3 MANDARIN=bureaucrat,DUCK=avoid
4 SAN(S)ER,IF=uncertainty – I liked this one, mainly for IF not being “poem” or “provided”. “sanserif” is one of several spelling options for the font grouping. And here is the version that late 70s Guardian readers fondly remember
5 SCAN,DAL=pulse (remembering that pulse can be singular or plural)
6 C(LIEN=legal right)T. Lien is a word for beginners to remember, along with wrong=TORT
7 STET = Lat. “let it stand” – the proofreader’s way of saying “I shouldn’t have crossed out that bit”. But beware the tale of the “to remain” Bible – see under KJV here – I suspect a few similar slips have been made with “stet”.
8 MAN=guy,DAM=block (vb.),US=American – I’ll let wikipedia explain mandamus better than I can
12 INVERTED SNOB – the clue is “Non-U bonus for person with non-U attitudes” – an inverted snob being “a person who scorns the conventions or attitudes of his own class or social group by attempting to identify with people of a supposedly lower class”. “non-U bonus” gives us BONS, and in the context of a down clue, this can be seen as ‘inverted snob’. I liked the way that the clue and answer shared the wordplay task here.
15 SOFT=foolish,WAR,E
17 DICTATOR = rev. of ‘rot at CID’
18 SEA = “sailor’s view”,FARER=”fairer” SEAFARER = “see, fairer” = (view, less biased) – I liked this because the sea wasn’t the “main”, and the sailor was none of AB, SALT, OS, JACK, TAR and the rest of this crew
19 CRACKER – double def – another which I’m sure we’ve had before but which must be hard to resist
21 DE(NI = rev. of “in” = at work)AL
24 R,APT=proper=appropriate

38 comments on “24577”

  1. A cruise in 12 minutes coming to a screeching halt at around Snaresbrook with last (and about 12 minutes later) in CAESAR. I got locked into CRETAN with wild surmises around sounding like cretin, St Paul’s “Cretans were always liars” and something to do with Icarus, his escape from Crete and his famous downfall. CALCUTTA was beautifully hidden, and would otherwise have been last in. CoD to the clever INVERTED SNOB, query of the day to common=WORKING CLASS, perhaps a bit of right way up snobbery!
  2. Nice to go to the bar, ask for a drink, and get a drink. The Timesian tang is back, and that immortal click. Enjoyable challenge, ducked under the half-hour, only to find on checking here I’d written inversed for inverted. Good to see the term however after yesterday. COD to that and (as it happens) 23.
  3. Oh dear. I was hoping it wasn’t just me who struggled in at 50 minutes, but it appears it was. Mind you, I suspected as much after having spent the last 5 minutes trying to solve 10ac with the clue to 9ac, having solved 9ac as 9ac very early on. On discovering that it wasn’t Aden (Suez crisis notwithstanding), but in fact Eden, I couldn’t for the life of me see why, even with the correct clue. Thanks for the explanation. Nothing to do with Denmark after all. Oh, well. Apart from that I thought it an inventive puzzle, and agree INVERTED SNOB should get the nod for COD.

    At 18d is sailor not the definition and view=see part of the homophone?

  4. Let’s hope that yesterday’s setter solves this puzzle and learns from the experience. This is not that much harder but in a different league. If you’re a newish solver and you complete this one – congratulations, you’ve achieved something worthwhile.

    15 minutes of fun. Yes, there are a few chestnuts but there are some real little gems as well. My only quibble would be the use of “common” to define WORKING CLASS. On the plus side I love INVERTED SNOB – a really great clue.

      1. I agree with you on this, and with much of what Jimbo says above. I actually found this puzzle easier than yesterday’s easy one, but it was a much better solve, far more inventive and good fun. There were one or two chestnutty ones, and at least one absurdly easy clue/solution (SCORER), but plenty to compensate elsewhere. INVERTED SNOB was a corker. Personally, I think “common” = WORKING CLASS can be justified on both the insulting and neutral/positive meanings of the term. Plenty of people, rightly or wrongly, do still use “working-class” in the sense of “common=vulgar”, so as a synonym it’s undoubtedly valid. Political correctness would come very low down, if at all, on the list of qualities I would demand of a Times xword setter.

      2. My objection really is that I don’t think “common” is a synonym for WORKING CLASS. Chambers defines W… as “manual workers and wage earners”. I can’t personally equate that with “common” which has several possible connotations (yes, low and vulgar but also normal, public or average). So, possibly artisan, employee, craftsman. Political correctness never entered my head.
        1. Intuitively, I agree with Jimbo. In my experience, common’ is most often deployed by working class matriarchs in reference to those who are ‘no better than they ought to be’ – nothing to do with socio-economics.
          1. A good friend who was brought (“dragged”) up in a brothel on the Liverpool docks told me that the working girls would reserve “common” only for certain types of people. At the time (1960s), for example, they thought Cilla Black was “dead common”.
        2. In the parlance of a snob “working class” and “common” would be synonymous in describing heinous crimes such using the word “toilet” or putting the milk in first.
        3. Apologies if I wrongly imputed political correctness to you! Your dictionary definition of “working class” is, of course, the technically correct one, but I think quite a lot of people do in fact equate “working class” with “common” in the “vulgar” sense. That said, I think Sotira’s point (below)is also valid. All of which suggests, I agree, that “common” is such a slippery word that it makes for a rather dodgy synonym here. The clue could have worked just as well or better with some other word.
          1. I’m not sure I agree with your last sentence – I can’t think of an accurate synonym for “working class” to fit this wordplay. It’s perfectly possible that a clue with a more accurate synonym could be written, but unless I’m missing something, it would have to be a quite different clue.
          2. Thanks for that, Mike. I run the local Residents Association so have a lot of dealings with the Local Authority. They would not recognise the description “politically correct” if applied to me!!
  5. This medium-difficulty, well-crafted puzzle with good surfaces should satisfy most people. I saved Eden till last, only because I could not justify it other than E-Den and because Aden also fitted. I enjoyed the clues to Inverted Snob, Caesar and the excellent hidden word. I also liked norm, which, for Peter, was the biggest chestnut, but there’s always a first time for everyone.
  6. 5:33, with one mistake (RIDER CUP for RYDER CUP at 2dn).  Still quite pleased with the time as I didn’t get to sleep at all last night and was expecting a long headache of a solve.  Was briefly held up by writing in ER at the end of 4dn (SANSERIF).  Unknown: MANDAMUS (8dn).  Unfamiliar: RYDER CUP, apparently, with apologies to golf fans.

    This is indeed what vinyl1 was asking for yesterday.  Another easy puzzle worth directing beginners towards is no. 24,264.

  7. 30 minutes for all but 22 and 21 which I came back to later and took a good 10 minutes to crack. I was convinced I would need aids for 22 but suddenly it clicked. I thought of DENIAL within my 30 minute session but didn’t write it in because I wasn’t sure of it. I had become fixated on ‘rejection of agreement’ being DON and ‘at work’ being ON, but how to fit them together into a word?

    Apart from those hold-ups this was a very satisfying and flowing solve.

  8. 16m. I agree that this is exactly the sort of puzzle everyone asking for yesterday. Easy but elegant.
    I was a bit concerned about alternative “guy” synonyms for MANDAMUS so relieved on checking here.
    I didn’t think that flounders were small, so I needed all the checking letters for that one. However it turns out that the flounder most familiar to me (and other fathers of small children no doubt) isn’t a flounder at all.
  9. 26 minutes. I enjoyed this puzzle, though it took a while to see the word-play of DENIAL. The definition of 23 across is a bit Hyacinth Bucket, isn’t it? Maybe that is what was intended.
  10. 23:44 .. I found this quite tough, struggling in all four corners. I may have been on bad form as I took several minutes at the end to see REPHRASE, despite seeing the wordplay straight off.

    INVERTED SNOB is excellent, but I also enjoyed the simple but perfectly formed RAPT – what a neat little surface.

  11. For some reason found this difficult to get into, but a steady solve once I got going. MANDAMUS from wordplay and although I knew what I was looking for just couldn’t think of SW(EDEN). I seem to be alone in thinking this a bit dull. COD reluctantly to INVERTED SNOB. Might have gone for SCANDAL but thought that might be a bit controversial, Heaven forbid.
  12. An entirely delightful 10 m followed by 3 more to get the 24/26 pair. Agree one can be common without being working class and vice versa. Admired Calcutta and the anagrams were a good crop.
  13. I felt this was marginally harder than yesterday’s, as well as more satisfying, so was pleased to achieve a new PB of 23 minutes. To think, one day I might be able to fulfil my dream of getting on the 9.10am from Virginia Water and filling in the grid before getting to Feltham without having spent an hour on it at my mother’s place over breakfast.

    Quite a number entered without full wordplay understanding from the definition alone. With -RK- in at 23, I was looking at Dorking for a while, but was pleased to finally be able to derive some benefit from the otherwise nondescript year I spent in the distinctly non-U stronghold of Woking.

    Last in STET. Liked 12, 19 and 27 best.

  14. 19:40 so despite some commenters categorising this as easy that would make it pretty much average for me.

    As I’ve qualified for Cheltenham 3 puzzles like this would leave me with 60 seconds of thumb-twiddling time at the end.

    I’m with keriothe in fretting about the correct synonym for guy as mandamus was unfamiliar.

    Also couldn’t see how Eden worked or the dal bit of scandal. Usually see the latter with an h in it somewhere.

    Got calcutta from checkers and def and only spotted that it was a hidden as I wrote it in.

    COD to rephrase.

  15. Peter’s comment on 14ac reminded me to ask: does being a good crossword solver require a certain level of experience, or enjoyment, of Scrabble?

    I can see how a good knowledge of the Scrabble lists can help when faced with checking letters, but that rather scientific approach would seem to ignore the mystery/humour/inventiveness of the crytic clue.

    For my part, I find Scrabble really rather frustrating – chance seems to play too much of a factor.

    I enjoyed today’s puzzle, buoyed perhaps by the inclusion of my home town yesterday.

    1. I’m also sure about the non-Scrabbling excellent solvers. I think the skills involved are too different to make crossword or scrabble skill a major factor in success at the other – Scrabble solvers need to know lots of words but needn’t know anything about their meaning. Words without meaning are pretty useless for crossword solvers. Knowing lots of words with meanings helps a lot, but it’s only part of the battle – working out the clues is the essential skill.

      As for the chance factor in Scrabble, it’s useful – Mrs B would never take me on in a race to finish a crossword, but will play me at Scrabble because there’s some chance of winning.

    2. I’m sure there are excellent solvers out there who never play Scrabble. However, I imagine that the mentality that drives some to memorise vowel-dumps and u-less Q lists is likely to favour a methodical, ‘winningest’ approach to solving cryptics, which is likely to result in fast solves. I’m not sure how useful the lists themselves are though, unless you have a really extensive knowledge of them, as for the most part they are based on their frequency in the average rack, whereas many ‘important’ (frequently occuring) crossword words are based on the arrangement of their vowels, which becomes important when assembling a grid (okapi and the like).
  16. This was lovely: light witty and a pleasure to solve. By no means a record time but retained my interest to the end. We should have more like this!

    MANDAMUS and ACTIVISM first in then steady progress. COD to the delightful RAPT!

  17. 20 mins and fun while sinking a furtive pint between ‘meetings’. Yesterday’s puzzle wasn’t awful; just a little flat and unfulfilling in comparison. We all have off days – or the opposite. Ta
  18. An interrupted solve, but over all I’d estimate about 20 minutes. Nice puzzle altogether, and I agree the COD goes to the INVERTED SNOB. Over here, FLOUNDER can get quite large, by the way. First entry RYDER CUP, last in CRACKER. Regards.
  20. This is my first ever completed cryptic (with a little help from work colleagues)!

    Particularly enjoyed 18DN

    1. Well done – the second one will come within a fortnight, I suspect.
  21. Got Eden from former leader but not sure about sweden…but havent got puzzle in front of me. enjoyed it and finished in sub 30 minutes. i expect we may have a toughie tomorrow!

    1. Eden = “our leader once”, (sw)EDEN = “a couple of leaders from European country”, with “from” as in “2 from 8 makes 6”.

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