24116 – Oh brother, it’s déjà vu …

…and it’s also good to be back. Radiotherapy and post-treatment taking things easy are now complete, with some interesting hair loss which is mainly restricted to the back of my head.

Solving time 11:16

This ended much the same way as yesterday’s – checking for any other possibilities at 4D, where ‘split up’ and the checking letters implied TRAP, but the def. was unknown. Plus some minor fraternal trouble at 12.

Across
1 GUNS,HOT=stolen. Report = ‘bang!’ is an old Times xwd favourite
5 MIMI,CRY – the tragic heroine is TB victim Mimi in Puccini’s La Bohème. Here she is already looking unwell as soon as she appears in Act 1, though she keeps on coughing away until Act 4.
9 NEVER SAY DIE = (Seven are DIY)* – ‘fans’ (= spreads out) is the first of a couple of crafty anagrinds
10 RAM – 2 defs, one being ‘to crash with force’, the other ‘one that butts’
11 AFRAID – F=frequency in ‘an attack’ = A RAID
12 Brothers=FRA,SCAT,I – I only knew fra as one brother, esp in “Fra Diavolo”, an Italian bandit, Auber opera or Laurel and Hardy film. I assume the plural is also ‘fra’.
17 TOWER OF LONDON – (wooden floor)* in Ten. TN=Tennessee. Correction thanks to vinyl1
21 AL(GER.,I)AN – for those about to gripe about man=Alan, tell me how many other 8-letter North Africans you can think of with a German inside.
23 ABULIA – today’s new word, but easy enough to see as a hidden word, even before any checking letters if barred-grid experience tells you that -IA must be the ending.
25 TEA = “tee” – the surface meaning is ‘peg’ = Brit: a small drink of wine or spirits, esp. brandy or whisky and soda – a case of surface reading more subtle than the cryptic one for some, I expect.
26 CREDIT UNION – UN=one (Brit dialect rather than French), in direction*. A clue with barred-grid tendencies
27 CAL(l),ENDS – an alternative to ides as part of the month in Roman times – the first day.
28 GIDDY,UP=on horseback
 
Down
2 NAVARIN = N.I,R,A VAN = ‘a delivery service’, all reversed. A Navarin is a lamb stew, presumably from Navarre.
3 HAR(B)ING,E.R.
4 TRAP = part rev. trap (also traprock) is a term for columnar basalt, as seen on Staffa or at the Giant’s Causeway
5 M.O.,DE-RATION
6 MEETS = (e)steem rev.
7 CARP,ARK
8 YUMMIEST = (us my time)* – ‘clocks’ is another fiendish anagrind, presumably in its “to strike, esop. the face or head” meaning.
13 BEEFEATERS – or officially Yeomen warders – the ex-servicemen in red and black who look after jewels ravens and tourists at the 17A.
15 H(I,DEB)OUND – {deb = debutante} seems to work a bit better than Deb = Deborah, but take your pick. Scoundrel = HOUND is a nice change from cur or cad.
16 AT(LAN)TIC, LAN being Local Area Network, and “the main” the def.
18 W,AG,TAIL
19 NULLIFY = (fully in)*
20 CA.,TNAP=pant rev.
22 (p)RICIN(g) – thanks to Mrs B for mentioning ricin the other day when we saw a castor-oil plant.
24 RING – round = ‘a round shape or object’

37 comments on “24116 – Oh brother, it’s déjà vu …”

  1. 15 mins, of which too much worrying about whether 4D could mean ‘rock’ and 12A; I wonder whether ‘brothers’ is a misprint and should be singular. 1A, 5A and 18D were all very nice, I enjoyed this one a lot.

    Tom B.

  2. Welcome back, Peter!

    I sort of assumed they had omitted an apostrophe at 12 across, so Brother(ha)s sort of singing etc, as I wasn’t able to find FRA = Brothers (pl)anywhere

    I’ve never met ONE=UN in a puzzle before so I was unable to fully justify 26.

    34 minutes with some tricky ones.

    1. Having solved the online version, I looked for an apostrophe in print later – but it’s not there.
  3. I thought this was pretty easy, and most went in quite fast, but I ruined my chances of a quick time by misreading a hastily written H as an A at the start of 15dn which puzzled me for a while and delayed completion of the SE corner.

    TRAP = rock, and ABULIA were both new words for me, but they were simply clued so didn’t hold things up.

    In 15dn I took DEB as debutante because she is a “young girl”.

    I hope things continue to go well Peter – I came to terms with hair loss some time ago.

  4. Ditto above except for FRASCATI. Always get held up by wines (see forthcoming book “1001 things I don’t know about wine”). Thought the S belonged to the brothers so the sort of singing had to be RAP or BAD, neither of which looked promising. New words NAVARIN, TRAP and ABULIA. Nice to finally put a name to my usual mental state. Also couldn’t see how one = UN until coming here. I suppose “It were a big’un, orright” is fairly standard usage.
    1. Although I rarely think of it, ‘un as in “big ‘un” or similar makes {one = UN} fair game for a daily paper puzzle in my book, but most setters seem to avoid using it.
  5. 7:23, though with no idea whether TRAP would turn out to be right. In competition conditions, I would have agonised for several further minutes before risking it.

    One for UN is commonplace in barred puzzles, but I don’t remember meeting it in a blocked before. And I agree that “young girl” is odd for DEB, as debs had to be of marriageable age.

    1. I agree. Chambers and COED have “young woman” and Collins adds “or girl”. I think “young girl” may be stretching things a little too far, and this clue seems to rely on the dubious convention that “young” can indicate an abreviated name.
      1. Or “young girl” squeaks through on the basis that a girl is, informally, a woman of any age.
  6. Quite an easy one this, a pleasant 15 min. jog for me, with the same momentary hesitations as everyone else, over why trap and frascati were correct..

    Welcome back, Peter!

  7. Welcome back, Peter.
    I found this about as easy as yesterday’s, 22 minutes for each, though I also had a moment of doubt about TRAP. I’ve come across ABULIA before so had no problem with that, but ‘clock’ as an anagrind is completely new to me. I was hoping for a time below 20, but I took too long to get CREDIT UNION and CATNAP
  8. Welcome back Peter. A nice easy one to get you back in the swing. About 25 minutes for me.

    I support the queries already raised about “deb” (girl is surely just wrong in this context) and “brothers” where “fra” is singular. I’ll add one. 1D is very easy, being the initial letters of “greetings ….. language” but what purpose does the word “right” fulfill other than as padding? Remove it and the clue works just as well.

    There were some nice if not outstanding clues in this and it’s a pity that what looks like carelessness just tarnishes it a little.

    1. I don’t mind setters using longer expresssions like “right from the start” as a small way of getting some variation from indicators like “from the start” (especially with ‘first letter’ wordplay where there aren’t many indicators available). And as penfold found, this clue just might suggest different wordplay.
      1. Possibly not always but quite often. That’s because we have different approaches and I think that’s healthy.

        Your approach is mainly pragmatic. If the clue can be solved does the rest matter that much. In today’s blog you dismiss those who might quibble about the clue to ALGERIAN on the grounds that no other answer is possible. I personally don’t mind the use of “alan” but I don’t agree with you reasoning.

        My approach stems from a desire to see some rules prevail and has nothing to do with how easy or difficult the clue is. It is born of a baptism into crosswords in the 1950s when there were few if any rules and living through the Ximenes publication and the adoption of his proposed framework for making clues fair for solvers.

        There is surely room for both points of view and the debates they sometimes provoke are for me both interesting and enjoyable. I hope you feel the same.

        1. Yes, I do like an argument! My approach isn’t quite “if it’s solvable it’s OK”, but “If it’s solvable and you can see why it’s the right answer, it’s OK”. “Seeing why” may be subject to some tricky knowledge, and I guess I’m happier than you to learn new/obscure things from checking letters and the wordplay or second def.

          I didn’t learn cryptic solving in the wild days of the 1950s, but did cope with some fairly liberal stuff at the Guardian when I started in the late 70s. When I first read books like Don Manley’s, about 20 years ago, I became a pretty strict Ximenean. Since then, I’ve mellowed a bit and don’t mind some of the strict rules being broken in daily paper puzzles (I stay strict for barred-grid puzzles).

          1. We can certainly agree on barrred-grid crosswords and the Guardian of the 1970s.

            It’s the rules I’m more concerned with than learning new/obscure things. The clue “perform strangely for a pet with nine lives (3)” meets your criteria but I think you would object to it as an indirect anagram of “act”. So it’s a matter of degree that separates us.

            As to new/obscure things in the daily cryptic for me the general tenor should be that an obscure answer can be derived from wordplay that itself does not rely upon an obscurity.

  9. A rare sub-15 minute solve here at about 14 minutes including brief stoppages to cut off chunks of Morrisons slicing pork & stilton pie.

    I’d underlined “fans” and “clock” as unusual anagrinds and banged in frascati and credit union without fully understanding the WP (ditto genial, where it fitted the def and checkers – I think the “right” spotted by Jimbo made it look like some subtraction was needed which was not unlikely given how much there was yesterday).

    Some clues felt a bit lazy (giddy-up, tea and ram for instance) which spoiled the whole somewhat.

    Q-1, E-4, D-4 COD 16.

  10. About 35′ today. Delayed for at least five minutes having carelessly entered NIGERIAN at 21ac and a few more musing over wines starting with BROS (former pop group who “sort of” sang). Oh dear!
  11. 7:25. I timed myself for the first time in a while today and was pleasantly surprised. I lost a minute on 4d at the end. I still can’t see how clock can be an anagrind whether you are beaten around the head or not. I agree with most comments, some good clues but some pretty lame. NAVARIN and ABULIA were both new to me but quite easily gettable.
    Welcome back Peter and thanks for giving me the opportunity to sub for you on a few of the days.
  12. 20:11 .. Solved after a late night trip to the cinema (Slumdog Millionaire – what a refreshing change) and probably could have been faster, but I couldn’t get started until NO GREAT SHAKES. Enjoyed the notion of the Tower of London being rebuilt in Tennessee, though these days it’s more likely to be Beijing.

    Wikipedia claims NAVARIN comes from navet – turnip – so I suspect Baldrick has been at his Lordship’s computer again.

    Welcome back, Peter, now with added radioactive spidey powers.

    Q-0, E-7, D-7 .. COD 16d WAGTAIL, a very elegant little clue.

    1. Moral: never, never, never guess a word origin. There’s also a tale of Navarin coming from the Battle of Navarino, but unlike the story of Chicken Marengo, precious little information about why the combined French/British/Russian victors might have celebrated with a lamb stew.
      1. The following is the etymology of NAVARIN from the online OED:

        French navarin (1866 in this sense; 1847 in sense ‘navet’), humorous alteration of navet (see NAVET n.2), apparently after Navarin, the name of a Greek town which was the site of a famous battle (the Battle of Navarino) in 1827, or perhaps alluding to the dish as characteristic of Navarre (see NAVARRAN adj. and n.).

        Something there for everyone, I think!

  13. Peter let me join with others in hoping that things continue to go well with your treatment.

    Agree this was reminiscent of yesterday’s in being generally straightforward but with a few obscurities at the end preventing a really fast time. Calends was new to me, and without it I struggled with atlantic (not knowing LAN) and I also wasn’t sure why part could be rock. On the whole it had a nicer feel than yesterdays, perhaps because I thought it reasonable for the solver to expect me to know LAN and calends, even though I didn’t. bc

  14. I’m solving the interactive version for the rest of the week over stolen why fi. I liked this one, in my fog this morning I went “probably TRAP” and blundered it in. NAVARIN and ABULIA were new words, but easy from the wordplay.

    Saw “Frost/Nixon” last night, definitely worth a peek if it happens by.

  15. Regards to all, and most notably to Peter on his return to active duty. Best wishes for continuing good health.
    Found this one easier than the Mon/Tue offerings, going through in 15 minutes, despite being unfamiliar with ABULIA, CALENDS and NAVARIN. Traprock is a pretty familiar term to those in the construction field in the US, so no great problem there, but it is hardly ever referred to as just plain ‘trap’. As for the quibbles, I think that ‘fra’ really is singular, and I pegged the ‘deb’ as a debutante, and I think ‘girl’ is clearly an OK definition, since in my mind a debutante today is usually in her late teens, and thus, to me at least, certainly qualifying as a girl. See you tomorrow.
  16. Welcome back, Peter. It’s a little sobering that even minus some hair, and presumably a few bits of your brain to boot, you still solve these damn things in a fraction of the time it takes most of the rest of us!

    I think I veer toward the Peter B side of the argument in the Peter/Jimbo colloquy above on fairness in crosswords. DEB = young girl at 15dn and ALAN = man at 21ac both seem perfectly OK to me. But, as Jimbo said in other words, Vive la différence! That said, I’m as puzzled as everyone else by FRA (surely singular) being used for plural “brothers” at 12ac. Perhaps some Italian scholar out there can put us right. Otherwise, I think we’re owed an explanation by the setter.

    About 35 mins for me.

    Michael H

  17. A quick (for me) 16 min. Agonized over “trap” for some time before chancing it. Had no problems with any other clues since I was in a “near enough is good enough” mode. Welcome back Peter.
  18. Good to see you back, Peter.

    TEA, WAGTAIL, NAVARIN and TRAP remained after a fairly quick solve for me just before bedtime.(I get the puzzle early online …a 6-hour difference here in Toronto) Had to come here to check and now see WAGTAIL and TEA…TRAP I might have guessed….but NAVARIN never.

    ABULIA is a delicious new one for me.
    Happy Christmas to those celebrating the Julian calendar version today.

  19. Convinced that 21A was Nigerian, I could not get 16D.Apart from that, rest were OK. I justified 12A by having “fr” as brothers and “a scat” as as sort of singing.
    Following yesterday’s corner of bacon, today I offer recipe for navarin of lamb as another cheap and nourishing winter warmer for those of us in the big freeze in UK.
      1. Thanks Peter.My Geography is non existent really!
        I join everyone else in wishing you good health from now on.
  20. A belated thanks PETER for your CONCOURSE explanation yesterday. Glad to hear things are progressing well for you, and many thanks for your unstinting and always genial explanations to your less accomplished crossword fanatics.
    From a -10 degree France
    Mike and Fay
  21. Ah, Frascati! That would be why I couldn’t find any Broscati at my local Tesco.
  22. I really enjoyed this one – not least because of 4d – a geological term as old as the science of geology in that it appears to have been first used in the late 1700s. I am familiar from the name of the large expanse of Cretaceous/Tertiary (K/T) aged flood basalts in the Deccan region of India – the Deccan Traps. The outpouring of a very large volume of basalt in this region, at this time, is a candidate for the cause of the K/T extinctions along with the Yucatan meteorite impact. Some think the two combined might have done it.

    Trap is apparently a term derived from Swedish “Trappa” (meaning steps) derived from the layered nature of flood basalts and how they form “stepped” landscapes. I had not heard it applied to the columnar basalt formations that PB mentions at The Giant’s Causeway and Fingal’s Cave but these are also basalts and certainly the GC forms “steps” although not necessarily from being layered.

    There are just the 2 “easies”:

    14a Little tremors are unimportant (2,5,6)
    NO GREAT SHAKES. More geology – hurrah.

    1d Friendly greetings expressed nicely in any language right from the start (6)
    G E N I A L. The first letters (right from the start) of words 2 – 7 of the clue with the literal being word 1. I agree with Jimbo that the “right” is unnecessary but also with PB that it is a quite acceptable embellishment. The view is quite good here from atop this fence.

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