Times Quick Cryptic No 2851 by Jimmy

Pretty flat out workwise at the moment so this is going to be no frills. Great puzzle, very funny, Jimmy is a terrific setter. No accurate time because of interruptions; I’d guess it was about my average.

Definitions underlined in bold.

Across
1 Corpulent celebrities I caught having a resigned attitude (10)
FATALISTIC – FAT + A-LIST + I + C. Very funny surface, great start. There aren’t any FAT A-LISTers any more, though, because of Ozempic.
8 Farm worker tucked into sherry, gutted to get diluted alcohol (6)
SHANDY – HAND going inside S{herr}Y [sherry gutted]. SHANDY is beer mixed with lemonade.
9 Some euros I risked for powerful underworld figure (6)
OSIRIS – hidden inside “euros I risked”. Egyptian god of the dead.
10 Love of the French lyrical compositions (4)
ODES – O for “love” + DES for “of the {in} French”. I found that unaccountably hard to see.
11 Mark humiliating Cockney speaking unclearly (8)
MUMBLING – M for “Mark” (old currency, I think) + {h}UMBLING. Like Uriah Heep in David Copperfield (“When I was quite a young boy,” he tells David, “I got to know what umbleness did, and I took to it. I ate umble pie with an appetite.”)
12 Begin touring upper-class, royal house (6)
STUART – START [begin] going round [touring] U [upper-class].
14 One US state or another which doesn’t have a river (6)
KANSAS -{ar}KANSAS – you remove the AR for “a river”.
16 Baker might make this business revenue (8)
TURNOVER – double definition.
18 Reveal posterior part of gizmo, once (4)
MOON – hidden in “gizmo, once”. For the innocents, it’s Collins sense 11:  (intransitive) slang: to expose one’s buttocks to passers by”. OK, I laughed. COD from me.
20 Grandmaster capturing a piece in sacrificial stratagem (6)
GAMBIT – GM [grandmaster] with A inside [capturing a] + BIT [piece].
21 Literature penned by Gothic writer giving no offence (6)
POLITE – POE [Gothic writer, Edgar Allan] with LIT [literature] inside [penned by].
22 Working loom raised for convenience (6,4)
LADIES ROOM – anagram [working] of “loom raised”.
Down
2 A qualification for doctor catching one bug (5)
APHID – A PHD [a qualification for doctor] with I inside it [catching one]. Super clue.
3 Cause of lapses and bad manners vicar periodically ignored (7)
AMNESIA – every other letter [periodically ignored] of “bad manners vicar”. Doing that in my head made me go cross-eyed.
4 Climber coming from peaks of inactive volcanoes? Yes! (3)
IVY – first letters [peaks of] of “inactive volcanoes yes”.
5 Maybe saw manufacturer talk more foolishly about nothing (9)
TOOLMAKER – anagram [foolishly] of “talk more” + O [nothing]. If only anyone knew if our Prime Minister had had a parent in this field of employment https://mydadwasatoolmaker.uk/
6 Complaint made by Conservative greeting Liberal Left (5)
CHILL – C [Conservative] + HI [greeting] + LL [Liberal left]. “Complaint” as in “illness”.
7 Classical sextet and former queen turned up in capital (6)
VIENNA – VI [Latin for six and so classical sextet] + Queen ANNE backwards. This means nothing to me, ahhhh Vienna.
11 Assessment of vehicle with current tax Edward’s driven (9)
MOTIVATED – MOT [assessment of vehicle] + I [current, from French intensité du courant] + VAT [tax] + ED [Edward].
13 100 withdrawn from account, possibly? One has a large bill (6)
TOUCAN – take a C out of “account” [100 withdrawn] and anagram what’s left [possibly]. One of my life’s most memorable moments was floating on my back down a river in Costa Rica watching toucans stream overhead. I can confirm that they do indeed have large bills.
15 More agile African runner goes round doctor on run (7)
NIMBLER – NILE [African runner, in the sense of a river] going round MB [doctor] + R [on run].
17 Well-known chemist in front of Boots during festive season (5)
NOBEL – B [front of Boots] inside [during] NOEL [festive season]. As in Alfred NOBEL, who invented first dynamite and then a peace prize.
19 Wrong party for Trump (5)
OUTDO – OUT [wrong, “your calculations are out”] + DO. Another beltingly good surface, Jimmy’s on fire.
21 Pastry that is after prawns for starters (3)
PIE – IE [that is] after P [prawns for starter].

77 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic No 2851 by Jimmy”

  1. 11:49, my last early solve, leaving California tonight.

    As soon as TOOLMAKER appeared, I immediately thought of Starmer, a clueing of “PM’s father” would have been fair.

    FOI FATALISTIC, LOI VIENNA

    VIENNA was tough, and Anne for “former queen” was hard, she was 300 years ago, and not too significant when stacked up against the Elizabeths and Victoria. “Classical” for Roman Numerals was fair, but a new device to me.

    COD OUTDO, for the very smooth surface. I’ve been working on my clue for the Christmas special, and coming up with a smooth surface is very hard.

    1. Queen Anne turns up a lot, Merlin, often reversed (as here) because ENNA is a useful run of letters appearing in various words. I think in the past she’s been clue mostly frequently as ‘old queen’, but with the demise of our late Queen Elizabeth ‘former queen’ seems to have increasingly become part of setters’ vocabulary and perhaps that’s why Anne is now described as such too. I suppose its a handy deception if a setter wants to be a little more devious because when we see ‘former queen’ now we tend immediately to think ER.

  2. Very nice puzzle, 10.16. Thought I was going to come a cropper with a number outstanding, but then MOTIVATED, MUMBLING, CHILL and TURNOVER all came in a rush at the end. One observation, I know any amount of sneakiness on the part of setters is permissible but at 19dn the capitalised definition (Trump) seems to push the outside of the envelope. I know it’s for the sake of a terrific surface but by def a capitalised Trump is the next president and ‘trump’ means OUTDO. I’m not complaining, just wondering if there’s some kind of rule and assuming there’s not! Thanks Jimmy and Templar.

    1. I was always taught to ignore any and all punctuation as it is only there to confuse. Except for numbers – cross referenced clues should always be numerical and not words

      1. Generally agree with you about ignoring punctuation Tina. There’s a couple of minor exceptions where I think a little harder about it …

        1) if there’s a question mark at the end it probably indicates there’s cryptic pun going.
        2) apostrophes 🙄 Take this clue from Breadman yesterday “Chopper used for taking holiday in Cromer’s outskirts (7)”. If you ignore the apostrophe then you’re saying to use C-S as the outskirts rather than the C-R. Often similar issue where a word is anagram fodder.

        And then once in a while you get a clue like Wurm’s “One among the stars in M*A*S*H (8)” from Feb 2024.

    2. The Times convention on capital letters is well-established. Words that require capital letters in the cryptic reading must have them. However, ‘deceptive capitalisation’ is permitted. So a word with a capital letter in the clue doesn’t necessarily have a wordplay meaning requiring a capital letter. Crafty setters wishing to blur the issue construct their clue so that word comes first and automatically then takes a capital.

      1. Thanks Jack, I’ve noticed that particular form of deviousness. Whenever a clue starts with Nice you know there’s a French word involved…

  3. I wasnt fast but I finished it. VIENNA took me foreverrr. Be quicker if I knew what classical sextet was getting at.

    I enjoyed all the surfaces too, maybe we’re all still ten year olds underneath

  4. Nice puzzle and I was on the right wavelength for once. 9.42 which is a PB for me but slow I know for others. I’m usually happy if I squeak in under 20.
    Thanks for explanation of (AR)KANSAS. COD to 19 down.

  5. I completed this in 11 minutes but felt lucky that it didn’t take a lot longer as the clues themselves were long (average 8 words, many of them quite long ones), so there was a lot to read and think about. My only unknown was ‘Grandmaster = GM’ but it was a pretty safe assumption.

  6. Just under 8 minutes. Not in vinyl1’s league today, being stuck on the crossing MOTIVATED and TURNOVER as my two last in and knowing GAMBIT only as a ‘stratagem’, not specifically a ‘sacrificial stratagem’ in chess, as indicated nicely by the surface.

    Favourite was TOUCAN just because they’re such appealing birds.

    Thanks to Templar and Jimmy

  7. Seven on the first pass of across and finished under 10, so I was on form today. MOON and OUTDO were highlights among many good clues. LOI was LADIES ROOM where I took a while to spot it was an anagram and then had a hard time unravelling it. Hadn’t heard of OSIRIS but he picked a pretty obvious hiding place so he went in with confidence! All green in 9.45.

  8. Great puzzle with lots of smiles. Was looking at a decent time until iceberged by moon and finishing in a respectable 21.20

    COD for fat a listers, thanks Jimmy. Thanks for the blog Templar, very much enjoyed the Ultravox reference 😂😂

  9. 9:29 for the solve! Another great puzzle from Jimmy. Only last Friday we had a puzzle from them and I said they’d mastered the QC brief. Somewhere in the middle of this I began to wonder if I’d spoken too early but once again this was a wonderful mix of a fast time and great clues. The AMNESIA alternates stands out but immature chuckle at MOON, liked STUART, NOBEL and piecing together FATALISTIC and MOTIVATED.

  10. Greatly enjoyed this one, started with CHILL and finished with Starmer’s dad in 7.54 with no major dramas along the way.
    Thanks to Templar and Jimmy

  11. 12 and a bit. Got fixated with baker’s dough for a time, then stared at a.n.s.a thinking, that’s a bit of a stretch to be asked to take some letters (the first 4) from manners and a couple from vicar (periodically) as anagram fodder and ‘bad’ as the anagrist… but it had to be amnesia. That took a minute or so and was followed by a swift flight to this blog take succour from my fellow solvers and vent my rightfully felt indignation…. ho hum the ‘umble pie’s pretty tasty!

    Thanks Templar and Jimmy

  12. 7.35 and all green. Could have been a couple of minutes quicker but got held up by POI KANSAS which I thought was the answer but took a while to parse and then LOI VIENNA once I was confident with the crosser.

    In the groove again today but rather than warming up with a bit of work, spent the time preparing a side of salmon for curing ahead of cold smoking tonight in preparation for the Christmas table. Anyway it must have gotten the cogs whirring.

    I had quite a low WITCH yesterday and I am expecting reasonably so today but I am still struggling to get my head around precisely what that means. I wonder if someone could qualitatively explain it? Is it fair to say that its not my performance compared to other solvers but rather a measure of how I have under/over performed against my regular efforts relative to how other solvers have under/over performed?

    Great puzzle with some lovely surfaces so thanks to Jimmy. Once again many contenders for COD but Ill go with MOON because its a childish act and it made me smile.

    Thanks Templar for blog – for once I don’t think I needed any explanations but nevertheless interesting and informative. Its a shame you got distracted. I now wait patiently for the rest of the household to clear off before I can breathe easily and get cracking with the QC.

    Cheers

    1. As I understand …

      Your general avg is 11:09 so that is given a score of 100 (it is normalised)

      Today’s time of 7:35 being about 2/3rds of that normalises to 68 to create your NITCH

      The puzzle’s average NITCH* is 82 and your score of 68 is 83% of that and is called the WITCH

      * Which is the average for all solvers

      In my case, my current avg is 18:58 – today’s 9:29 is half that resulting in 50 NITCH. My WITCH is 60 i.e. 50/82

      1. Thanks ND so I think you’ve put into numbers that which I tried to articulate – you’ve over achieved to an extent more than the other over achievers?

        My wife thinks I have some kind of disorder BTW that once I get into something I have to know every detail, own every gadget etc.

        1. “you’ve over achieved to an extent more than the other over achievers?”

          If the Puzzle NITCH is under 100 then indicates that on average solvers did better on this puzzle. You could say that is over-achieving or you could say it was an easy puzzle. Bear in mind, we have a range of setters so the difficulty of QCs varies, as we know.

          Likewise your Personal NITCH could either be interpreted as overachieving or an easy puzzle.

          If I understand correctly a WITCH score below 100 indicates you overachieved compared to the crowd. This could apply whether the puzzle is hard or easy. For example if the puzzle is hard and everybody takes 25% longer to complete it than usual; but you only take 20% extra you will have a WITCH below 100 and have ‘overachieved’. A WITCH score over 100 would represent underachievement. At least that’s my interpretation.

          As for what your wife thinks – there are some mysteries best left well alone 😄

  13. Lovely puzzle and a quick time, but with none of the clues just a write-in, except IVY. LOI GAMBIT, where I had to pause and think a bit longer. Liked the LADIES ROOM and the classical sextet. Having clever rather than obscure setting makes such a difference to the enjoyment of the solve. Thanks, Jimmy!

  14. Great puzzle from Jimmy and thanks Templar for great explanatory blog – definitely not ‘no frills’. Has there ever been a clue on the lines of Grocer’s daughter is a roofer?

    1. Thanks YL – the blogger always appreciates a thank you!

      Not seen that clue myself – but it must have been done.

  15. A second puzzle by Jimmy only 5 days after his last (QC 2847 last Saturday – perhaps a record short interval between puzzles by the same setter?), and I did rather better than I did last time, coming home after 12 very enjoyable minutes. A steady solve rather than any major hold-ups, though I took time to see TURNOVER, did not see the parsing for KANSAS (a real D’oh moment when I read the blog, and I think the Kansas/Arkansas pairing may even be a chestnut?), and did not understand why Poe is considered a Gothic writer. LOI was OUTDO, and I only understood Out = Wrong post solve.

    Many thanks Templar for the blog
    Cedric

    1. Mara had QCs 2507 and 2510 published Oct 2023 (only two QCs between them). But as we didn’t have a Saturday QC it was four calendar days in between – like Jimmy’s today.

      But if we go back to Feb 2023 – Orpheus had QC 2333 published on a Thursday, Jalna on Friday, Orpheus back on Monday with 2335 !!

  16. 25 minutes to solve. TURNOVER, KANSAS, GAMBIT (LOI) and MUMBLING taking most time. Some fairly convoluted clues.

  17. 7:43
    LOI VIENNA, since I had fallen into the trap of assuming ER would be in there.

    Thanks Templar and Jimmy

  18. Thought I had actually completed it after a struggle (LOI STUART) – but failed OUTDO. Enjoyable, though – thanks, Jimmy and Templar.

  19. Posted my comments as a reply to someone. Sorry. Now deleted

    Enjoyed this. Left app on inbetween attempts. Time probably about 30mins, not 360 as shown on phone.

    COD either fatalistic or motivated.
    LOI was outdo. Couldn’t get my mind away from the red (can I dare say orange?) herring. Needed an alphabet trawl x 2 for this.

    Thanks to Jimmy and Templar.

  20. This seemed easier than yesterday, but it took me a minute longer at 16 minutes.
    I was held up at the end by NOBEL-I could not think of a single crossword chemist with five letters- and LOI GAMBIT- I had GM immediately but could not see the rest for a while.
    An excellent puzzle and hard to pick a COD. I liked FATALISTIC and GAMBIT.
    David

  21. 15:46

    Oh, that was frustrating. All done bar LOI CHILL in 12 minutes but was then stumped by having fat fingered MUMBMING leaving me looking for a complaint ending in M. Saw the error in the end but this never happened in the days of pen and paper.

  22. 7:12

    I agree with everything that’s been said about Jimmy: very satisfying puzzles. Nice blog too; looking forward to one with frills!

    FOI SHANDY
    LOI VIENNA, only after RE became impossible.
    COD VIENNA

    Thanks Jimmy and Templar.

  23. I took my time and enjoyed the quality of this QC. 27m to finish
    COD: VIENNA which magically appeared by following the clue.
    LOI TOUCAN as I had missed ‘possibly’ as an anagram indicator.

  24. Also enjoyed a lot. Building up fatalistic and motivated very satisfying.
    DNF due to odes, gambit,outdo and aphid (great clue) .

  25. I think I was on form today finishing this in 7.55, as I felt it was tougher than my time suggests in solving. As usual I shot myself in the foot by biffing TUDORS for 12ac after seeing ‘begin touring upper class’, it really does pay to read the whole clue and parse it! TURNOVER, something a baker might make, took me back to my childhood when my mother would regular buy apple turnovers filled with cream. With all the exotic delicacies in the cake department now available, I can’t remember seeing one in recent times. Are they a thing of the past now?

  26. I would have thought that a “brief” blog would be right up Templar’s street, or in his court! Anyway, m’learned friend provided an excellent commentary to a fun QC today.
    SCC visitor today, no particular problems although OUTDO took a bit of working out at the end. I could see that The Orange One was a diversion, but took a while to then focus on the actual wordplay. Nicely pitched questions, much enjoyed over a leisurely coffee.

  27. I found the 15×15 very easy today; I suggest it is a good starter for anyone thinking of graduating there.
    Today’s QC excellent. COD 1a Fat A-list i/c.

    1. Thanks for the heads up on today’s 15×15, always appreciated when someone posts it’s worth having a go.

  28. 11:25. It seemed fairly straightforward up until my final two which were TOOLMAKER and VIENNA, both of which took ages to parse. Nice puzzle with a good flow to it. Particularly liked FATALISTIC. Thank you both!

  29. It’s Jimmy to the rescue. After some real toughies in the past few days, a proper QC. I finished in around 15 minutes, which is really very fast for me.

    Most of the clues required some thought – few were simple write ins – and I had to move on before coming back to some. However, none posed anything like the kind of problems we encountered with Lupa or Izetti earlier this week. So, a true QC for once.

    Many thanks to Jimmy and Templar.

  30. Well, that was a pleasant surprise. Started quickly, with all the across ones going in more or less straight away, apart from the Polite Kansas Ladies Room set, clustered down in the SE corner. You can now guess where I struggled with the down clues, but loi was actually Vienna, where I was looking for something far more obscure. Those hold-ups pushed me out to what still feels like a disappointing 17min solve. CoD to 19d, Outdo, for the simple surface. Invariant

  31. Gentler than of late and lots of humour. My favourite clue was MOON – brilliant! Biffed TOUCAN but couldn’t quite see the parsing – obvious now of course – thanks Templar. Liked building up VIENNA. Biffed then parsed GAMBIT assuming grandmaster=GM. Also liked LADIES ROOM. Lovely puzzle Jimmy. Thanks Templar.

  32. From FATALISTIC to GAMBIT in 7:59. Outside the top 100 so others found it easier than I did. Thanks Templar for making time in your busy schedule to blog.

  33. From FATALISTIC to TOOLMAKER (I missed the anagram and biffed from checkers) in 5:46. VIENNA needed the A from KANSAS before I realised what the classical sextet was. Thanks Jimmy and Templar.

  34. Just snuck in under target in 9:59 with LOI POLITE. Nothing particularly difficult so put it down to a bad cold – an early Christmas present from Mrs E.

  35. I did not quite finish but a fair and good puzzle. Also get a reasonable QC from this setter.

    Thanks for the puzzle and blog

  36. 10:36 and enjoyed a good set of clues though it feels a long time since we were under 10 minutes. Thanks Templar and Jimmy.

  37. 6:03

    Nothing to report really – no hold-ups, had to go back a couple of times to correct sausage-fingered entries due to ‘phone solve.

    Thanks Jimmy and Templar

  38. 7.39 I wasted some time trying to make CAVIL work in 6dn where the wordplay could lead to CAVEL. I moved on and the checkers made CHILL obvious. The rest went very smoothly. So smoothly I can’t remember what was LOI. Thanks Templar and Jimmy.

  39. 18 mins…

    Started off slowly, but getting a couple of key clues sent the rest tumbling in. I agree, Jimmy is a great setter.

    FOI – 4dn “Ivy”
    LOI – 5dn “Toolmaker”
    COD – 5dn “Toolmaker” – just because I think must of us chuckled and probably thought the same thing.

    Thanks as usual!

  40. Finished and enjoyed. Rather pleased to have got VIENNA because for once I built up the clue from its parts, remembering we had Queen Anne the other day. Usually I confess I Solve by Synonym/biff.
    Liked SHANDY, FATALISTIC, NOBEL, MOTIVATED.
    Cd not parse e.g. TOUCAN so thanks, Templar.

  41. The “I” in motivation is simply the physics notation for current….V = I R Ohms Law
    I was pleased to get that one within a few seconds.

    aphid, ivy, shandy, mumbling making five for today.

    1. … and the REASON that it is “simply the physics notation for current” is that Ampère used it as shorthand for “intensité du courant” in his formulation of Ampère’s force law …

      (It’s motivated, not motivation.)

  42. 11:27 with no errors. Another delightful one from Jimmy, I always enjoy his puzzles. Difficult to pick a COD, FATALISTIC, MOON, LADIES ROOM, APHID, VIENNA, MOTIVATED, TOUCAN, and NIMBLER all being brilliant. FOI – SHANDY, LOI – GAMBIT. Thanks Jimmy and Templar.

  43. 11:25, so I found it very accessible – but witty and not the least boring. Getting 1a immediately and some of its descenders helped a lot. But TOOLMAKER was sly (unaware of Starmer connection) and kept me guessing almost to the end. And “oh, THAT kind of complaint!”

    Thanks to Jimmy and Templar. If this is a no-frills blog, I’m clearly going to need a second cup of coffee when you do a frilly one!

  44. I think Jimmy may be my favourite setter. Anyway, finished this one in 12:29 and very enjoyable it was too.

    Thank you for the blog!

  45. Very nice puzzle, which I did after the 15×15 (I made the mistake that lots of others made on that one). This one was all correct, but took a while- I had to break off to take in deliveries.
    I loved the AMNESIA clue.
    Thanks for the blog, and thanks Setter

  46. I got a lot of the across clues straight off but slowed down a bit after that. All done in 16 minutes although it felt faster as there were no substantial hold-ups. A bit of relief after the struggles earlier in the week.

    FOI – 8ac SHANDY
    LOI – 16ac TURNOVER
    CODs – too many to mention.

    Thanks to Jimmy and Templar

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