Times Quick Cryptic No 1949 by Izetti

Author   JohninterredPosted on Categories Quick Cryptic

A rather tricky but perfectly fair challenge for us for the end of the week from Don with the usual neat and precise clues and some nice pieces of misdirection. I found it at the harder end of the spectrum, taking 9:17 to finish – my slowest for quite a while. There are a few words on the edge of my vocabulary that I needed the wordplay to find. 5d took me a while to see and 4A was my LOI. Lots to enjoy, though – I liked the concise 12A best. Thank-you Izetti! How did you all get on? If you found it difficult, don’t worry – I’m sure you will be in good company.

Fortnightly Weekend Quick Cryptic. This time it is my turn to provide the extra weekend entertainment. You can find the latest crossword, entitled “Gone Fishing”, and a bonus quiz round, here. Enjoy! And if anyone is interested in our previous offerings you can find an index to them here.

Definitions underlined in bold italics, (Abc)* indicating anagram of Abc, deletions and “” other indicators.

Across
1 Separate identity given in sleazy bar (6)
DIVIDE – ID (identity) “in” DIVE (sleazy bar).
4 Carefulness with which engineer approaches old Chaldean city (6)
RIGOUR – RIG (engineer, the verb) O (old) UR (Chaldean city). Even with the perenniel crossword favourite old city, I still struggled to get this one until I realised “engineer” was the verb not the noun! My LOI. Nice one.
8 Group in the morning coming back chums (5)
MATES – SET (group) AM (morning)  “coming back” -> MATES.
9 Editor about to get set of principles laid down (7)
DECREED – ED (editor) “about” -> DE, CREED (set of principles).
10 Meat in picnic basket half wasted (3)
HAM – HAMper (picnic basket) “half wasted”.
11 Dad gets torn apart with time — condition of having children (9)
PARENTAGE – PA (father) RENT (torn) AGE (time).
12 Shoot messenger? (6)
RUNNER – Double definition. Another typical setter’s trick… Gramatically “shoot” is a verb in the surface reading, but it is a noun in the definition.
13 Mathematical concepts appearing in problem: massive (6)
LEMMAS – Hidden, “appearing in” in probLEM MASsive. A Lemma is “a subsidiary or intermediate theorem in an argument or proof” as we all know… or maybe we don’t. I couldn’t remember what it meant and I have 2 children at university studying maths and my wife’s a maths teacher.
16 Prohibition has detective briefly restraining pub workers (9)
DEBARMENT – DET (detective) “briefly” outside, “restraining”, BARMEN (pub workers). I was misled to start with by thining the definition was “pub workers”.
18 Refusal by daughter to show sign of agreement? (3)
NOD – NO (refusal) D (daughter).
19 Pub submerged in the river could be more watery (7)
THINNER – INN (pub) “submerged in” THE R (river). When I was working in Telford this was a local pub… The Boat Inn in Jackfield in the Ironbridge Gorge has been flooded many times, most recently in 2020. It has lines on the door showing previous flood levels.
20 Attack bishop, after all the rest (5)
BLAST – B (bishop) LAST (after all the rest). Nice ambiguity in the clue… does the bishop come at the start or end of the answer?
22 Realise that you have to stop and get very cross (3,3)
SEE RED – SEE (realise) RED (light that indicates that you have to stop).
23 Fix material next to display (6)
REPAIR – REP (material) AIR (display). REP is one of those words I’ve only ever seen in crossword clues, but it is one to remember as it’s a handy one for setters. Rep “is a cloth woven in fine cords or ribs across the width of a piece, usually made of silk, wool, or cotton“.
Down
1 Mother a bit wet, not all there (3)
DAM – DAMp (a bit wet) “not all there”.
2 Contents of mini-vat could supply health supplement (7)
VITAMIN – (mini-vat)* “could supply”.
3 Rapid escape, an extraordinary vanishing act (13)
DISAPPEARANCE – (rapid escape an)* “extraordinary”. An act like Harry Houdini’s perhaps.
5 Popular copper entertains them periodically, beyond a doubt (13)
INCONTESTABLE – IN (popular) CONSTABLE (copper), outside, “entertains”, ThEm “periodically” – i.e. alternate letters. I needed the checkers to see this one.
6 Norma maybe is not entirely cooperative (5)
OPERA – Hidden, “not entirely”, in coOPERAtive. This opera by Bellini comes up a lot in crosswords.
7 One badly attired may need to be compensated (9)
REDRESSED – Double definition, the first a cryptic hint.
9 Devon flower in spring (4)
DART – Double definition. I pondered this for a while as I thought the second definition ia little oblique, but then I thought of a startled animal spring/darting from the bushes. The first definition, of course, uses the old trick of “flower” meaning something that flows, i.e. a river.
10 Historian reveals bad king to us in a different way (9)
HERODOTUS – HEROD (bad king) (to us)* “in a different way”. Herodotus is known for his detailed account of the Greco-Persian wars. I eventually vaguely remembered the name but had no idea what he wrote about.
14 State of an atom, spinning around neutron initially (7)
MONTANA – The answer has nothing to do with this, of course.  It’s (an atom)* “spinning”, “around” Neutron “initially”. Nice looking surface, but our setter is clearly no physicist! James Chadwick would spin in his grave at such a concept. But the surface meaning of a clue doesn’ have to be literally true.
15 Put up with something hairy for the most part (4)
BEAR – BEARd (something hairy) “for the most part”.
17 Female going to match — second-rate journey? (5)
BRIDE – B (second-rate) RIDE (journey).
21 Deserter heading north is a sailor (3)
TAR – RAT (deserter) “heading north”, i.e. reversed – this is a down clue -> TAR.

56 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic No 1949 by Izetti”

  1. …because I carelessly put Herotodus instead of Herodotus, even though I have read him in Greek (many years ago). That made a lot of the SW very difficult until I spotted the cause of the difficulty.

    Here in the US, rep ties were very common back in the day; the corded silk fabric was well suited to the stripes of regimental and school ties, which in the US are purely decorative.

    Time: 12:25.

  2. This took me longer than it should have. I couldn’t drag HERODOTUS from memory until I had a few checkers, and only then saw the wordplay. I stuck too long with CU for ‘copper’ at 5d, and E__D as inclusive (‘about’) at 9ac. 8:47.
  3. After a great start writing the answers in the NW quarter straight in I slowed to a crawl and needed 15 minutes to crack this one. It’s very rarely I need that long, and now I have missed my 10 minute target on three consecutive days.

    I suspect DEBARMENT, HERODOTUS and LEMMAS will not have gone down too well with some of our less experienced solvers.

    Edited at 2021-08-27 05:09 am (UTC)

    1. Quite right! Even though I consider myself pretty well versed in maths, I didn’t know this, even though it was tempting as it must have been a hidden. Partly rejected because I didn’t really believe there could be a relevant word that I didn’t know!
      Lammas, of course, I know, but that hindered rather than helped. Debarment wouldn’t have come to me in a month of proverbials… 🙁

      Edited at 2021-08-27 08:20 pm (UTC)

  5. All the aids came out today. I can’t say I found much of the usual Izetti sparkle.
  6. Just over half an hour. I biffed ‘Deterrent’ in at 16, and then couldn’t see what 17 was. That slowed me. Very nice puzzle and helpful blog. I didn’t know LEMMA or REP!
    Thanks
    Andrew
  7. Got off to a flyer with the 1s and offshoots going straight in, but things slowed down from there. No problem with HERODOTUS as I studied him at university (in English, unlike Vinyl). Got very focused on RE for engineer and when the penny eventually dropped just assumed that RIG was some obscure type of engineer, rather than spotting that it was a verb. LEMMAS was unknown but kindly clued and I finished with REPAIR where I was looking at the wrong end of the clue for the definition.
    A good Friday test with Izetti leading me down many blind alleys before some satisfying PDMs. Finished in 13.59.
    Thanks to John
  8. … only to find a single pink square for a mistype in 14D. Mintana anyone? In my defence (a) I usually use (and much prefer) pen and paper, and (b) the pc I am using today has such an old keyboard that half the letters have faded or otherwise come off. And both the I and the O are completely blank keys! Memo to self — must learn to touch-type.

    That apart, I thought this tough, even for Izetti, even for a Friday — and I see some much more experienced solvers than me have taken their time too. The NW went in pretty fast … and the rest most certainly did not. Quite a lot of traps, obscure definitions and setter’s tricks. 4A Rigour was a guess as I failed to see Rig = Engineer, 23A Repair was a biff and only then did I vaguely recall Rep = material, a classic “only now met in crosswordland” word, even the meaning of 9D Dart as Spring only came to me post-solve.

    Ah well. At least we know that tomorrow’s Saturday Special will be totally fair, eminently enjoyable and of a predictably doable standard.

    Many thanks to John for the blog, and a good weekend to all
    Cedric

  9. A rare chance to meet BRIAN GREER – TONIGHT!
    John Halpern, Times cryptic setter here. I have a very special guest on my latest Zoom call tonight. Brian Greer, former Times (and Independent) crossword editor, Brendan in the Guardian, and Times setter – is joining us. To ‘meet’ him subscribe here:
    https://www.johnhalpern.co.uk/
  10. 18:45, with LOI SEE RED.

    Finally found a use for my dusty Maths degree with LEMMAS, although problem=sum which came up earlier in the week was a distraction.

    Some tough GK today, Herodotus and Herod no problem, but an opera Norma? As in Norma Jean or Norma Major, who are the only two Normas I know. And of course with O – – – A, and “Norma maybe”, I tried manfully to get ORMNA to work.

    “Wear” can mean put up with, “I’m not sure he’ll wear that idea”, I toyed with this (“wearwolf?”) as I did not like BEAR as was confused by the fact that bears are of course hairy.

    Surely Disbarment is the usual form for DEBARMENT, and with DI more common for detective, at least in the world of crosswords I tried to make it all fit.

    A well constructed puzzle, , COD HERODOTUS, for GKx2, misdirection (king) and subtle anagrist (to us).

    Edited at 2021-08-27 07:47 am (UTC)

    1. There’s a very well known and beautiful aria from Norma – Casta Diva. Some lovely recordings by Maria Callas amongst others.
    2. If I were to ask you to name an opera, you’d likely enough say ‘Carmen’ or ‘Aida’ (at least, I would, anyway); but not in Crosswordland. ‘Norma’–which I’ve never heard, I hasten to say–is in Crosswordland the operatic counterpart to ‘She’ for novels and ‘If’ for poems.
    3. Funnily enough, I’ve just been doing an old puzzle — #825 on 8.5.17 by Izetti. Part of the refresher course, and completed in 9:24, so it can be done! But my main point is that he clued NORMA as ‘Female occupying barn or mansion’ on that occasion.
  11. ‘Norma’ integral to the plot of a very fine 1980s french film- ‘Diva’. Well i remember it as a good film.
  12. ….and I had to back out two answers, besides hitting wrong keys on 5 or 6 occasions. Luckily I spotted everything before submitting correctly, but I think I should have been inside my target time if I had been less clumsy. Confidently entering “bar” in the first 3 squares of 16A didn’t help either !

    Tricky puzzle, but no unknowns.

    FOI DIVIDE
    LOI RIGOUR
    COD DEBARMENT
    TIME 5:32

  13. Sub-20 mins, which is very good for me. Always enjoy Izetti for the rigorous logic of the clueing. Or maybe I was just on the right wavelength this morning – not too much biffing today!
    FOI: Divide (for a more-or-less sequential solve for once)
    LOI: Repair (never remember ‘rep’!)
    COD: Debarment (unusual word built solely from the elements of the clue for me)

    Very brief intro: been lurking and learning for a few months now. Gone from thinking cryptics were totally meaningless to them being an essential start – with my morning coffee – to every day… largely thanks to this blog finally demystifying it all! Manage to complete most, but often more by biffing than parsing (brute force and ignorance is a wonderful combination). I’m getting there – and hope to contribute here more now I’m creeping out of Dunce Corner!

    2. If you’re knocking them off in under 20 minutes that’s an impressive learning gradient. I still only get out of the SCC three days out of five, and I’ve been doing this since before Covid ( Six cut fish to get virus (5) )
      1. Thank you! 20-30 is about average now. If it goes beyond that, I’m not going to finish at all (once I see a clue in one way, I find it very hard to rethink it in another.) About 1 a week defeat me. My aim now is not to get quicker, but to solve all of them…

        I’d never have done it without this blog – both to unpick the general tricks and techniques of solving, and for the inspiration of seeing how deal with the tricky ones!

        (Love the sneaky clue, Merlin – I tried to concoct a witty reply, but you beat me this time!)

        1. Yes, the key to fast solving is rapidly discarding wrong ideas. Often, however, the wrong ideas turn out to be on the right track, but need a little tweaking.
  14. The short answers went in quickly but there was a fair bit of head scratching with many of the rest. NHO LEMMAS but, like DEBARMENT, it followed from the clue. INCONTESTABLE took a while — I, too, was fixated on CU. Needed all the crossers before HERODOTUS fell out (as always, Izetti’s clueing is impeccable). A strangely unsettled solve for me — not the most enjoyable QC from Izetti. Close to the SCC today. Thanks to both, though. Roll on Monday.

    Edited at 2021-08-27 08:20 am (UTC)

  15. So I must have done OK, even though 2 mins over target. I seem to have typed that a lot this week.

    Nowt to moan about though – HERODOTUS probably my COD, though INCONTESTABLE, DISAPPEARANCE and DEBARMENT all warrant a mention, for surfaces and “misdirection” (Not CU, and not DI).

    8:00.

  16. This was far too tricky for a quicky – a mixture of the obscure eg (Lemmas) and the tenuous eg Blast made it much more suitable for the main cryptic in my view.
  17. Quick on LHS as HERODOTUS sprang to mind, fortunately, as did DISAPPEARANCE.
    FOsI DIVIDE, DAM, HAM.
    Slower on RIGOUR (knew Ur, of couse, but did not spot Rig was a verb) and COD REDRESSED. Biffed LEMMAS, tho NHO.
    LOsI BLAST, REPAIR as I couldn’t decide whether 21d was TAR or rat..
    No problem w NORMA making another appearance.
    Glad to have had a better day. Thanks all, esp John.

    Edited at 2021-08-27 09:08 am (UTC)

  18. Didn’t know the river, so just threw any old rubbish in after 10:47.

    Found the whole thing challenging today, good job setter. And thanks John.

  19. Still not sure whether this was a tricky Izetti or not, but I made heavy work of this and stumbled in very slowly after 42 mins. Maybe I shouldn’t have tackled it so early in the morning after going to the pub last night.

    Some lovely clues though, even if there were a few I didn’t have the GK for (10dn “Herodotus”, 6dn “Opera” and 13ac “Lemma” come to mind).

    Spent quite a long time trying to fit “RE” into 4ac — another one where I didn’t know the “Chaldean” city — but luckily it popped into my head.

    FOI — 1ac “Divide”
    LOI — 6dn “Opera”
    COD — 9dn “Dart”

    Thanks as usual!

  20. Quite a Friday work out, which took me nearly 30 mins to finish. I quickly gave up trying to squeeze Harold into loi 10d, but that fixed my mind on English Kings and I only wandered further afield when nothing made sense. Debarment and poi Rigour also took some working out. Re 14d, my old physics teacher took a dim view of chemists and would often remark that they thought an electron orbiting a bus was a hydrogen atom… My CoD, by a country mile, is 17d, Bride. Thanks to Izetti and John. Invariant
  21. FOI: 11a. PARENTAGE
    LOI: 4a. RIGOUR
    Time to Complete: DNF (after one hour)
    Clues Answered Correctly without aids: 11
    Clues Answered with Aids: 5
    Clues Unanswered: 9
    Wrong Answers: 2
    Total Correctly Answered (incl. aids): 16/26
    Aids Used: Chambers

    This was a dreadful puzzle for me. I really do not like Izetti puzzles. They are way too difficult, I feel, for the QC. A complete disaster for me. I have said it before, and I’ll say it again: Izetti should stick to the 15×15. Not a beginner friendly setter by any stretch of the imagination.

    Oh well, no point in getting down about it. Let’s see what Monday brings. I am not sure whether there will be a QC on Monday seeing as it’s a Bank Holiday here in good old Blighty.

    1. I don’t mind them — as I think they are a nice bridge between straight forward QC’s and the 15×15 (which I always struggle with and never have the time to complete).

      I guess if they were all the same level of difficulty the QC would get pretty dull indeed.

      1. “I don’t mind them — as I think they are a nice bridge between straight forward QC’s and the 15×15”

        Actually, that’s a very good and valid point you make.

    2. The Izetti puzzles are easy for skilled solvers, because the cluing is so precise. Picking out and relying on the cryptic wordplay, even if it results in an unknown word, is what good solvers do.

      In this particular puzzle, there are a number of starter clues that use common cryptic elements:

      TAR – deserter for rat is very common
      DIVIDE – sleazy bar should bring dive to mind immediately
      NOD – doesn’t get any simpler
      VITAMIN – screams 7-letter anagram
      BRIDE – Second-rate is very often B, and journey is either ride or trip
      DAM – three-letter mothers are usually dam, mum, or mom

      With more experience, you will find that clues like these are write-ins. Then you will have the checking letters to tackle the harder ones.

    3. I thought this was excellent training and picked up quite a few tricks – flower as a river, shoot as a noun and Ur, which I’d never heard of.

      I do admire your stamina though. 30 minutes is my usual cut off, by which time I still had 5 to get and gave up.

  22. A puzzle of two halves Brian – the LHS flew in but the RHS grimly resisted, ending in hand to hand combat. Crikey.

    Hard but fair and very, very enjoyable.

    FOI DIVIDE, LOI RIGOUR (the “Chaldean” threw me, as did the fact that “engineer” wasn’t RE or REME), COD INCONTESTABLE which was an immensely satisfying solve with no checkers, time 11:22 for 1.3K and a Very Good Day.

    Many thanks Don and John.

    Templar

  23. Taken into the SCC today at 21 minutes, slowed down by the SE corner, where HERODOTUS, SEE RED and BRIDE all offered stiff resistance. I was really pleased to recall LEMMAS and to construct INCONTESTABLE (I initially tried to make INDUBITABLE fit). All good Friday fun, thanks both.
  24. Good time spoilt by one genuine typo and one which I think I have to accept was a genuine error — DIBARMENT — as I think (not sure) I put in DI as detective to begin with and didn’t change it when BAR and MEN revealed the word. Fat fingers not helped by (a) tapping away on a phone and (b) doing so on a train (returning to Bath from Scotland, currently at Oxenholme).

    Not unhappy with that. Didn’t know the setter (as not shown on phone) but didn’t surprise me it was Izetti

    Also read Herodotus at school and used to holiday in Dartmouth so GK was kind today

    Nho LEMMAS but it couldn’t have been more gently clued

    Thanks John and Don

  25. A slow 37:44 for me, but an enjoyable puzzle and after the last two DNFs, finishing at all felt like a success. Thanks Izetti and John.
  26. Just under 30 min. As often with clever cryptics once the penny drops one can’t quite understand what made it so tricky! NHO lemmas or Herodotus but got there with the help of checkers and Google. Thanks for the offerings Don and John
  27. A tricky puzzle indeed., spoiled for me by my careless failure to read the clue properly at 10d, where I unfortunately biffed HERODITUS. Otherwise 12:54 WOE. FOI, DIVIDE. LOI, RIGOUR. Thanks Izetti and John.
  28. Like others I started off very quickly but the gaps in my knowledge led to bigger gaps in the grid. I DNK HERODOTUS so I needed all the checkers before I could commit. Ditto for LEMMAS. I enjoyed both the long down clues DISAPPEARANCE and INCONTESTABLE with COD to the latter. 14:18
  29. … our setters are pulling us from one end of the musical spectrum to the other. And we had NOISE yesterday, which I suppose both are.

    Our blogger describes this as “rather tricky”, but I found it almost impossible. However, the key word in that sentence is “almost”, as I doggedly followed some advice offered to me earlier this week by invariant (Thankyou, Mr I) and I refused to write in any clues I couldn’t parse.

    After aeons trying to fit a word into O_D_A, I realised that DECODED should actually be DECREED. It then took another aeon to spot OPERA in the clue for 6d. I also spent a long time making and de-bunking the cases for both DAM and DIM, but I stuck to invariant’s advice, chose correctly and managed to complete the puzzle successfully in 68 minutes. It took me 40+ minutes for my last 4-5 clues, but I got there in the end. Phew!

    Unfortunately, Mrs Random is a few QCs behind at the moment. Hopefully, she will catch up over the weekend.

    Many thanks to Izetti and johninterred (“rather” tricky, indeed!).

    1. Well done, and I hope you enjoyed our distinguished setter’s craftsmanship. A ‘full house’ of answers and parsings is always satisfying.
  30. Haven’t posted for a while as I have been getting to the puzzles late. Rrally enjoyed this on, was definitely on right wave length. 20 mins was a fast time for me with the only struggle at DEBARMENT which somehow my wife got on first ask with little thought. Not sure what to make of that.

    Thanks Izetti and to John for a very good blog

  31. Well, I joined the SCC today, and then went out the other side! This must have taken me more than half an hour, although I paused for a few minutes halfway through. Following various recent discussions about enjoying the ride, rather than going for speed, I decided to stop worrying after 15 minutes and less than half the grid solved. I found this a struggle today, although (mostly) very enjoyable, and as Vinyl pointed out, there were a few very user-friendly clues along the way. I didn’t know LEMMAS but worked on the basis that there was some link with dilemmas. At 10d I got absolutely stuck on the bad king being John (I always think of the AA Milne poem) and even wondered if there were two anagrams going on. Herod – so obvious now! I biffed the historian in the end but spelt his name wrong, so I guess that is a technical DNF. So no whinging from me, but as far as I’m concerned, this was very much on the tricky side!
    FOI Divide
    LOI See red
    COD Disappearance
    Thanks Izetti for the challenge, and John for the entertaining explanations.
  32. I kept thinking I would have to resort to aids but was delighted to complete this unaided even if it took me a long time. Lots of clever misdirections like 11a which I thought was going to be an anagram. Those of us of a certain age had to do a Geometry paper for O level maths which involved producing Euclidean style proofs. A lemme was something you had to prove before you could tackle the main problem. I don’t think pupils have been required to learn proofs of geometrical theorems for a very long time.
    FOI divide
    LOI bride — more nice misdirection
    COD Montana
    Thank you both — very satisfying.
    Blue Stocking
  33. My usual twenty minutes. FOI divide, gosh, that’s a rare thing for me, FOI 1 across. Then only two more acrosses before I started on the downs and acrosses together. So a real phillip, then a swamp of doubt. But things fell into place. LOI was incontestable as I had to check in the OED whether it was -ible or able. Enjoyed all the clues. There were several nuances in the parsing that I didn’t see, so thanks, John, for the thorough blog. Thanks to Izetti for an entertaining puzzle. GW.
  34. Time; lots, but Izetti is the setter I work at however long it takes, because the clueing is so good, I learn more tricks and style tips every time. Several words I did not know or easily recollect, but the clues eventually showed me the way. RIGOUR held me up for age seven once I had the OUR part. INCONTESTABLE was a lol answer.
  35. 7:51 this afternoon. I felt I wasn’t sharp enough to have a real go at what was a typically testing but fairly constructed Friday offering from the Don. But then looking at earlier comments here has made me realise I probably wasn’t the only one.
    I recalled “lemmas” from my maths studies many years ago but couldn’t explain how they differed from theorems.
    COD and LOI 12 ac ” runner”.
    Most curious solving experience 15 d “bear” where I spent some time trying to parse the clue only seeing a hairy animal, while mindlessly stroking my beard of 50 years! Mmmmm….time for a lie down in a darkened room perhaps?
    Thanks to John for the blog and the Don for the puzzle. Both very entertaining.
  36. Tough. Solved late after golf. LOI RIGOUR. Guessed LEMMAS.
    Good puzzle but hard for a QC. No time recorded today.
    David
  37. Another DNF for me in a bad week. Failed on RIGOUR, DART, DEBARMENT (NHO), REPAIR and (unforgivably) BRIDE. Guessed LEMMAS and INCONTESTABLY. Oh dear.
  38. I did this yesterday but didn’t manage to comment, 20 minutes for me and like others found the LHS trickier.

    In case of interest, a lemma does come from the same route as di-lemma. In Ancient Greek a dilemma was a two-horned problem, where you would either be spiked by one horn or the other. What with that and Herodotus, I felt comforted that my classical education was put to some use!

    2. Mrs Random has always had a talent for inventing plausible, but not quite correct words. Some years ago, she came up with ‘multi-lemma’ to describe a many-horned problem.
  39. Well, we finished, but that was not a fun experience. Just couldn’t get into the groove at all but chiselled our way through. Clueing as fair as ever, but not a happy experience!
    Tim (not that Tim).

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