Times 28731 – taking sides in 1642.

A classic medium difficulty puzzle today, featuring just about every kind of clue within the setter’s toolbox. A splendid 15-letter single-word anagram at 5d, too. It took me about 25 minutes, with AVATAR my LOI, once I’d twigged the Spoonerism.

Definitions underlined in bold, (ABC)* indicating anagram of ABC, anagrinds in italics, [deleted letters in square brackets].

1 One detecting tail of carpet snake (6)
TRACER – T (tail of carpet) RACER (a kind of North American snake, I guessed then checked afterwards).
5 Woolly tops of cabaret artistes dancing in drag (8)
CARDIGAN –  C[abaret] A[rtistes] (IN DRAG)*.
9 Understanding similar spirit after time (6,2)
TAKING IN – T[ime], AKIN (similar) GIN (spirit).
10 Emerged from second crash (6)
SPRANG – S[econd], PRANG = crash.
11 Clipped very accommodating pet backwards and forwards (8)
STACCATO – SO (= very) with TAC  CAT (pet backwards and forwards) inserted.
12 Naughty fun is ultimately immoral and bad (6)
SINFUL – (FUN IS L)*, the L from immoraL.
13 Puritan press team (8)
IRONSIDE – IRON = press, SIDE = team. One of Cromwell’s lot.
15 Joined in thread broadcast on radio (4)
SEWN – sounds like SOWN meaning broadcast.
17 Turn informer, regularly using espionage (4)
SING – alternate letters as above.
19 Dispatch star heartlessly (8)
CELERITY – CELEBRITY without central B.
20 Spot papa parking in valley (6)
DAPPLE – P P (papa, parking) inside DALE = valley.
21 Unknown soldiers returned with famous Cavalier (8)
ROYALIST – Y, OR (unknown, soldiers), reversed, gives ROY; A-LIST = famous. One of the other lot, not Cromwell’s lot.
22 Film average Gulf resident without clothes (6)
AVATAR – AV[erage], [Q]ATAR[I]. My ignorance of movies is not total, I’ve heard of this one but not seen it.
23 Ecstasy in handbag strangely getting nod at rock concert? (8)
24 Very involved in living without poverty (4-4)
KNEE-DEEP – NEED (poverty) inside KEEP (living, as a noun).
25 Report missing setter, lazy individual (6)
DOSSER – DOSSIER loses I, the setter.
2 Respondent travelling via Crete (8)
REACTIVE – (VIA CRETE)*. Took me a while to see, although I was sure it was an anagram, I was looking for a noun not an adjective.
3 Cheers   double feature (4-4)
CHIN-CHIN – double definition, one being chin repeated. Allegedly, from Chinese, qing-qing meaning please-please.
4 Bother cook with graduate job (9)
RIGMAROLE – RIG (cook) MA (graduate) ROLE (job). Think I’ve seen this one before.
5 Acting on her suspicions and expertise (15)
CONNOISSEURSHIP – (ON HER SUSPICIONS)*. Once I had it ending in P  suggesting -SHIP, I quickly saw the rest of the anagram.
6 Strip beside privet hedges (7)
DEPRIVE – hidden as above.
7 Airmen able to stop half-cut lass writing on wall (8)
GRAFFITI – RAF and FIT (airmen, able) inside GI[RL].
8 Petty new leader eschewing laughter (8)
14 Sprightly old lady embraced by accomplished girl on farm (9)
DAIRYMAID – AIRY (sprightly), MA (old lady) all inside DID = accomplished.
15 Spooner’s gang collapsed in bar (8)
SANDBANK – Rev. Spooner would say “BAND SANK” for gang collapsed.
16 Road with bend ahead in Lancaster? (8)
WARPLANE – LANE = road, with WARP (bend) “ahead”.
17 Vacuously silly subject entirely upended curriculum (8)
SYLLABUS – S[ill]Y, then all reversed, SUB[ject], ALL.
18 Problem of island swathed in shade (8)
NUISANCE – IS (island) inside NUANCE = shade.
19 Nick grandad’s last cabbage (7)
COLLARD – COLLAR = nick, D = end of grandad.


71 comments on “Times 28731 – taking sides in 1642.”

  1. My time of over an hour suggests I found this very hard although it was very much a puzzle of two halves. The RH went in fairly easily but I became bogged down LH, especially in the SW corner where the Spoonerism (I hate ’em!) and the NHO cabbage eluded me until the very end. The missing checkers they would have provided nearly stumped me at 22 and 24ac.

    Btw, on the elusive cabbage, this appears to be its first ever appearance in any Times puzzle in the TfTT era.

    What is going on? The blog has been up for 5 hours and nobody has commented before me!

    1. Ah, there you are! (but where’s Kev?) Now I don’t feel so all alone. Ha
      Also in hating, hating, hating Spoonerisms (especially stamped so clearly as such).

        1. Yes, Kevin, your assumption is correct. Meant to strike a tone of familiarity but not presumptuousness, and used the shortened form mainly to avoid repetition, as I had just used the full name in my first comment (preceding this).
          There are only two people in the world who ever call me “Sand,” and they are Judith (who likes to be called “Jood”) and Deb (whose sister is “Suz”). I know they mean no harm, but it also strikes me as a bit odd, every time. So I understand.

  2. What? No comments? The blog was posted before I had started the puzzle. And it took me a little time—not least because I put two (adjacent) correct clues in the wrong places (in ink, of course). I was also otherwise distracted. Just now remembered to look here. So where’s Kevin, at least? If no one else, Kevin should be here by now!

    Well, I will continue to give my report, in this echoing chamber.
    This was just as Pip said, except that it didn’t quite run the gamut of setters’ tricks. Where’s the &lit? No CD either (thank goodness!). And… But this setter is versatile enough, and I enjoyed this more than yesterday’s. Antepenultimate one in WARPLANE—I’d never heard of Lancaster, so that was a guess!

    I also had a “typo” (in ink!) for CONNOISSEURSHIP that threw me a while. (Was watching TV too…) Friends were surprised, even shocked, when I informed them recently that CONNOISSEUR has been replaced in modern French (since 1835) by CONNAISSEUR (not my slip-up: I merely left out an S).

    1. Glad it wasn’t just me—my second entry was CHIN-CHIN, confidently penned into the lights for 2d. D’oh!

    2. Moi Aussie, mon Cher: cheerfully, and with CELERITY, entered CONNOSSEURSHIP in 5d until I realised I had an extra light! ( in ink, of course – which I will say also threw me off the lower half). I also found it a puzzle of two halves, in that the top half went in swimmingly, and I ground to a halt (can that happen in water?) in the lower half… which is to say, I fared badly there, with only ROYALIST and HEADBANG showing themselves.
      Had to come here to move onward at all, and that was like pulling teeth, as each answer did NOT lead me on to another. Failed to remember the LANCASTER aircraft, the film (very forgettable) and ‘keep’ as synonymous with living. And don’t mention the Spoonerism. So not a successful solve, all up, but tomorrow may be easier – who knows.

  3. DNF. I managed to mangle CONNOISSEURSHIP ending up with a spelling that looked completely wrong but escaped my notice until after I’d submitted. Much of my time was spent in the SW with the unfamiliar though known COLLARD (only ever seen before in “collard greens”) and the two tricky compound words in SANDBANK and WARPLANE, whose eventual solving enabled me to finish up with AVATAR. I had thought average was going to be AVE rather than the less familiar AV.

  4. 56:24. Up early this morning. Should have gone back to sleep instead of trying the crossword. Three-quarters of it went in pretty smoothly (although I parked CONNOISSEURSHIP until I had all the crossers to be sure) leaving the south-west corner totally blank. And it just took ages. COLLARD, DAPPLE and the wretched Spoonerism – it’s much too soon to have this second one. And I was convinced the film would end in MAN from OMANI “without clothes”. Even SEWN! But I liked STACCATO and SPRANG

    1. Yes, the clue shouted out {o}MAN{i}, didn’t it? In the end I bunged in AVATAR simply because it fitted and I was tired of the puzzle by then. I never saw the country and didn’t know the word as a film title.

      1. The ken of “general knowledge” is a strange thing. I can just about believe that members of our elite community might be unaware of the multi-award winning, highest grossing movie of all time (sic). But (sorry Guy!) not to know the Lancaster (cue sound of four Merlin engines over possibly the best war movie theme tune of all time) stretches credulity!

        1. On Lancaster I thought of Wars of the Roses and Burt and was stumped after that. Eventually with all checkers in place WARPLANE presented itself and from there I understood the association.

          As for the popular culture stuff I’m okay up to the 1960s but after that I have vast areas of ignorance with blockbuster films and pop music right at the top of the list. Generally they’re subjects that hold no interest for me. Radio 4 once named a panel game perhaps with me in mind called I’ve Never Seen Star Wars

        2. I was interested, and sad, to learn last summer that there is only one Lancaster still in flying condition – it came to something I attended along with that bit of information. I thought I remembered three in formation at some of the late 1990s and early 2000s fly-overs.

          1. You may be pleased to know there’s another in Canada, which saw active duty after the war, mostly on maritime patrols.
            The one that really grieves me is the Mosquito. There are four of these in airworthy condition, three in the States and one in Canada. One is currently being restores to flying condition in the UK. During the filming of 633 Squadron, 3 were intentionally destroyed: no punishment is severe enough.

            1. I am indeed pleased to hear about the Lancaster in Canada. And about the Mosquitos. Thanks for the info

              It’s probably too much to hope for a clue, ala highest grossing film Avatar, of grossest high-wing film: 633 Squadron.

              1. “You can’t kill a squadron” is my leading candidate for worst closing line in a movie. Ever.

  5. Glory be to God for dappled things –
    For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow;
    (Pied Beauty, GM Hopkins)

    30 mins mid-brekker. No ticks, crosses or Mers. I liked it.
    Ta setter and Pip.

      1. Me too! And I’ll always remember our Welsh English teacher (!) reading it out to us in that beautiful sing-song accent and being completely converted to a poetry-loving student immediately. I can still hear her, in my head to this day, some 67 years later…

  6. 26:49
    Had most of this done in about 20′, then dashed off to the gym. I forget what remained to be solved, but they were mainly in the SW, if I recall. I don’t care much for Spoonerisms, but this one I really didn’t like. DNK COLLARD was a cabbage (like Pootle, I only knew ‘collard greens’). WARPLANE was an unknown known, or vice versa: I finally thought of LANE, then WARP, then it hit me. The E gave me KNEE-DEEP, the K gave me SANDBANK. If memory serves.

  7. Slightly difficult, 33:15. A very enjoyable set of clues. COD has to be CONNOISSEURSHIP…

  8. 33:49

    Made my way around the board in reasonable time with no lengthy hold-ups bar a few minutes at the end coming up with the Spoonerism – needed 20a DAPPLE to see it, LOI 22a AVATAR going in afterwards. Heard of COLLARD so it went in from the first and last checker. Quite pleased with the long 5d – had three checkers including the H, so while wondering whether the second word of 24a was DEEP, guessed SHIP and tried out the anagram – it worked!

  9. 31.28, with a couple spent at the end tracking down a typo which turned out to be in CONNOISSEURSHIP, where else? An enjoyable puzzle with a few toughies, especially in the SW. Like others my LOsI were SANDBANK and WARPLANE. Some crafty constructions and definitions here nicely explained by piquet. I too have noticed an eerie emptiness about the blog from time to time, especially on the QC. I know we in Oz have a massive time advantage but it seems not so long ago there was a lot more activity in the early hours than there is now, when it’s just a few of us early birds…

  10. 41 minutes, finishing with AVATAR once I’d got off the SANDBANK. Pity St Patrick didn’t get as far as the US as I didn’t know the snake, needing all crossers for TRACER. COD to ROYALIST, liking KNEE-DEEP too. Quite tough but good.Thank you Pip and setter.

  11. 55 mins so on the tougher side. Not helped by having carelessly pencilled in IRONSIEE, therefore staring for ages at the ungettable E-I- – – A-D!

    Once I finally saw that, DAIRYMAID went in, swiftly followed by ROYALIST and DOSSER.

    Not so enjoyable today, though I can’t put my finger on why. Probably just me.

    Thanks pip and setter.

  12. I just took 43 minutes, mainly because the SW corner took me ages. LOI AVATAR, before that WARPLANE, because I had pencilled in AVE for average – I actually never heard of just AV for average. Also NHO collard but luckily the clue was clear.
    Looking back at it now, I think I was just being slow… hasn’t been my week so far 😉
    Thanks setter and blogger, good puzzle in fact
    Cheers Steve

  13. 25 minutes or so, with the dreaded Spoonerism holding up my progress in the SW. No unknowns for me today but I was thankful for the checkers to accurately spell connoisseurship, which if left to my own devices would have a touch of Morecambe about it.
    Thanks to setter and blogger.

    1. “I’m entering all the right letters, but not necessarily in the right order”?

      1. Haha yes you’ve got it, a slightly mangled reference to the Andre Previn sketch. I’m sure the great man is looking down from wherever he is with great pride, firstly with his beloved Luton being back in the big time, and secondly to have bagged another mention in this esteemed blog.

  14. 10:49. This is slightly quicker than my current SNITCH average but in my experience an average-speed solve always feels trickier than that for some curious reason. Something to do with the distribution of times faster and slower than the average. On this one I started very slowly on the acrosses but found the downs easier. Fingers crossed for TRACER with its unknown snake. Another in the ‘collard greens’ club.
    Another Spoonerism of exactly the type we were discussing yesterday: a clunkingly obvious device which is nonetheless annoyingly difficult to solve.
    Pip I think in 12ac you have the definition and anagram indicators the wrong way round. I don’t think ‘and bad’ can be an anagram indicator, so that must be ‘naughty’ and ‘and’ is just a link word between wordplay and definition.

      1. I don’t think you can put the word ‘and’ between anagrist and anagrind and retain the cryptic grammar. ‘T S Eliot and dancing’ is not a valid indication for TOILETS!

  15. After 45 minutes of some easy solving at times I couldn’t break into the SW corner and resorted to aids. By that time I was fairly bored. COLLARD was in Bradford’s and helped me further, but I was screwed by 22a, and 16, where my careless writing made the initial W look like a U.

  16. 18:40
    DNK IRONSIDE as a Puritan or (T)RACER as a snake, but easy enough to work out. Like most, I struggled with the Spoonerism (and the spelling of CONNOISSEURSHIP), but managed to get AVATAR before LOI WARPLANE.
    IRON MAIDEN on Monday, HEADBANG today; what next, SLIPKNOT?

  17. 16′ dnf as could not spell CONNOISSEURSHIP even with all the crossers. Otherwise enjoyable, apart from the Spoonerism.

    Thanks pip and setter.

  18. Over 50′ so not my best. Like others the SW corner held me up… I feel I was subconsciously avoiding the Spooner, even though it was straightforward after a couple of crossers. Very careful with CONNOISSEURSHIP, ticking off letter by letter. Similar Omani and even Arabic thoughts before Qatar/AVATAR came to me simultaneously. Enjoyed the civil war references and WARPLANE, LOI NHO COLLARD which was was easy after getting the “C”.

  19. 28:06

    Enjoyed this a lot. Close to throwing in the towel with SANDBANK and WARPLANE still missing. Applause for both and also for CONNOISSEURSHIP. I’m another who thought the Gulf resident “must be” Omani but there you go.

    Have never watched the film and the brief glimpses I’ve seen make me glad of that.

    Thanks to Pip and the setter.

  20. Rare morning solve for me, and it obviously suits because I came in at a gratifying 18’41”. SEWN was my next to LOI (or POI), surprisingly – because it should have been obvious but I was fixated with SEEN. That opened the way to LOI WARPLANE. Guessed COLLARD and TRACER, and toyed with PIFFLING at 8 down. Many thanks.

  21. Two goes needed, eventually finishing in the SW corner on the second attempt with WARPLANE, SEWN, SANDBANK, KNEE-DEEP, AVATAR and COLLARD in that order. Like a few others, for AVATAR I tried to get ‘man’ in there from Omani ‘without clothes’, and only once SANDBANK was in place did I see which country was needed.

    Got the unknown COLLARD from wordplay, hadn’t heard of a racer snake for TRACER, trusted that IRONSIDE was a puritan, and wasn’t completely sure about airy=sprightly in DAIRYMAID, though I’m not sure why. Even allowing for the stretching of definitions in these crosswords, ‘nod at a rock concert’ is an understatement for HEADBANG – albeit an amusing one.

    Thanks setter and blogger.

    FOI Cardigan
    LOI Collard
    COD Graffiti

  22. Beaten by WARPLANE. I knew it ended in – LANE, and knew that if I looked at it long enough I’d see it… but couldn’t be bothered. Didn’t like CONNOISSEURSHIP, either as a word or as meaning ‘expertise’.

  23. 22.03. Funnily enough, CONwhatsit wasn’t a problem for me: you just keep on adding letters until you get to the bottom row. But GRAFITTI is one of those that tangle my brain, because I know it’s either two F’s or two T’s and (as above, for example) plump for the one I think it isn’t.
    We’ve had worse Spoonerisms (yesterday’s for example) but the measure surely should be “does it make you smile?”. I believe the number of actual Spoonerisms is quite small, limited to town drains and tasted worms, so perhaps we should come up with a new name for what can be a fun device. Think yourselves lucky we didn’t have bed hang.
    The rest of this was fine and diverting: COLESLAW didn’t fit, and I couldn’t make sense of BETEEUSE. CREATIVE appealed too, but failed even the most stretched definition test. Good, naughty fun, and not at all SINFUL

  24. 27:55 with most of the difficulties in the south and particularly SE quadrant. Was convinced the problem in 18d was NUB-something and briefly invented NUBIONAN as a subset of chiaroscuro style. DAIRYMAID seemed rather a lot to unpack and it stubbornly remained in that state until coming here.

  25. I see from the comments above that I’m not alone in detesting spoonerisms. It would be nice if the setters collectively decided to refrain from including them in future, but that’s a bit of a forlorn hope I would imagine!
    I found this tough although the top half went in relatively easily. In the end I crossed the line in 54.45 which considering the difficulty I was relatively pleased with. It made a change to have a different film other than ET in AVATAR, although as a very infrequent visitor to the cinema I think I’m at a disadvantage in trying to name too many films.

  26. I got through this fairly quickly until I reached the SW corner. CONNOISSEURSHIP took a bit of unravelling. Eventually DAPPLE and KNEE DEEP unblocked the log jam. The NHO COLLARD came next, then WARPLANE followed by SANDBANK. That left AVATAR which finally surfaced when I got rid of the Omani. 30:01. Thanks setter and Pip.

  27. Easy until it wasn’t – I found two separate sections of this very tough, eventually finishing with WARPLANE & AVATAR. Looking at them now, none of them seem that hard, so I must just be having an off day. Bad timing, with competition ahead.

  28. 19.42 but

    Just as I pressed send I saw that there was a missing o in the long anagram. I’d put in and taken out a couple of letters as I couldn’t immediately see celerity and wondered if I’d spelled the mastery right (for a change I had). Drat (as our esteemed poster JD might exclaim!)

    A moment of inspiration got me AVATAR and that helped muchly in the SW with the cabbage last in.

    Excellent puzzle with the long anagram particularly impressive

  29. A steady solve for me which usually means a lot of comments about how easy it was today. But that appears not to be the case so I’m feeling more satisfied with my efforts than expected.
    COD NUISANCE (nice surface)

  30. 22:39, with half of that time spent down there in the Margaret River region, falling into the same traps as many previous posters.

    I considered weighing in on SpoonerGate yesterday, but gave it a pass. Feeling less benign towards the device today, probably because it held me up for so long. Probs best if we don’t see another one this week.

    Thought HEADBANG was the standout in this one. Thanks Pip and setter.

  31. I think it was an Attenborough film from the ?Galapagos featuring the efforts of a young sea iguana crossing the territory of dozens of RACER snakes in order to reach the sea and safety. All Action, heart stopping stuff.
    Spoonerisms, a tiresome (ie I always struggle) but traditional feature of Crossword Land. They have a right to life.
    Thoroughly enjoyable midweek puzzle and the perfect blog. Thanks

  32. On the wavelength today… with DAPPLE and SEWN in place I actually solved the spoonerism in microseconds, and Lancaster as warplane was only milliseconds behind. So avoided most of the ones that held others up; but couldn’t spell CONOISSEUR – looking at the anagrist might have helped 🙂
    Sometimes at the end one or two or three hold you up for minutes. For me that didn’t happen, today.
    Quite liked STACCATO for all the wrong reasons. Tried to shave my cat once (don’t ask), ended up with scratches all over my face and arms and body.

    1. Know of but never seen Avatar, which seemed to be a 3-D prototype rather than a film. Saw a 3-D film once – Life of Pi – and gotta say the advertisements were much more impressive than the film itself.

  33. To begin with it was all going so well and then I got so impossibly stuck on the lower half that I gave up and used aids a bit, so my time of 59 minutes as seems to be usual doesn’t count. I even had to use aids for _EWN and even when presented with SEWN couldn’t see how it worked and couldn’t believe it. So the Spoonerism (yet again, although as I said yesterday I rather enjoy them; seem to be in the minority though) defeated me until late, and I’d never heard of COLLARD. But no complaints. Good crossword.

  34. Most of this done in 15 minutes then held up for ages in the SW – the homonym escaped me and I join with the general dislike of spoonerisms both of which made the warplane very resistant to yield.

    Biggest problem though was miscounting the letters in espionage to give sine- which I thought was a brilliant definition of turn informer as in the informer of a turn or curve!! This made niggling impossible to get until I realised my mistake. Finally finished in 45 mins approx.

    Very enjoyable puzzle – thanks p and setter

  35. Found a few of these tough but got there, in not much under an hour. Seems a clumsy word for something delicate, connoisseurship. And yet maybe something for a eulogy. ‘His remarkably detailed knowledge of world affairs was balanced by his connoisseurship of the Times crossword puzzle.’ Friends and relations please note. Warplane last in. Dredged up the the racer from somewhere; also the collard…

  36. ‘Clueless’ for the first 12 mins but persevered. Chipped away at the NE, then NW, then SE finishing in the SW at 61:33 – only my fourth 15×15 solve.
    I must confess however, to copious use of Google for synonym trawls. 😊

  37. Under 20 minutes, but like so many others messed up the connoisseurship word. Impressive when you consider we were given all the letters!
    MER at sprightly being a synonym for airy. Can’t quite see it myself, but since nobody else has mentioned it, I am obviously in the wrong. I shall now dig out my Chambers.

    1. My AI assistant has this to say on the subject of ‘airy’ meaning ‘sprightly’: Airy can mean sprightly. Both words describe someone or something that is light and graceful in movement or manner. For example, you might say that a sprightly child has an airy step, or that a sprightly melody is airy and lighthearted.

  38. 47 minutes. Hard going. Mostly I had to BIFF when I had sufficient crossers, and then work out the rather obscure cryptics.

    Not complaining, but it’s odd to see AVATAR make an appearance. It may be the highest grossing film of all time, but it’s never really crossed over into popular culture. Everyone knows James Bond, Indiana Jones, ET, Harry Potter, Star Wars, Batman. But AVATAR … something to do with tall blue amphibians with spears? (Full disclosure, I only managed to sit through half of it.)

  39. A toughish puzzle, all done in 42 minutes, but half of that was spent unscrambling the SW corner. Had a complete blank on SANDBANK, WARPLANE, and NHO COLLARD. Eventually, after playing around for ages with the Spoonerism, it all became clear.
    Thanks to piquet and other contributors.

  40. I found this quite tricky, and did it in two halves, being busy during the daytime and unable to finish over breakfast coffee. The right-hand side wasn’t too bad, though the central anagram fooled me for ages, as I’d optimistically begun by putting in NESS at the end of it. HEADBANG sorted that out, and then I fortunately thought of SHIP, which slowly led to letter elimination and the answer. I thought the Spoonerism quite fun, and managed to get it with only the S, after a lot of possible options, which then gave me KNEE-DEEP, DAPPLE and WARPLANE in quick succession. So, as I said yesterday, they can be very useful when one is stuck. LOI was TRACER, with the NHO Racer snake – though of course I have seen the Attenborough clip, so HO but forgotten.

  41. I’m intrigued to know why nobody likes Spoonerisms.. but then again, I’m just a pheasant plucker..

    1. This came up yesterday; a few commenters mentioned that as soon as you see the word Spooner in the clue you know how the clue works. Too easy to deduce the cryptic device of the clue, which is often half the fun.

  42. Similar struggles to others but got there in the end.

    Felt frustrated getting stuck in the SW but on reflection chapeau to the setter for some excellent clueing (sorry to those who think otherwise but I rather like the spoonerisms).

    Time: just under the hour

  43. Cabbage and Celer(it)y. Sounds like someone’s on a diet.
    RH side flew in. Like others misspelt the CONNOISSEUR initially. Took far too long to see COLLAR although we often have collar for nab or nick, KEEP for living and AKIN for similar.

    Thanks both

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