Times 27964 – mind your P’s and W’s

62 comments on “Times 27964 – mind your P’s and W’s”

1. For the first time in weeks I did the 15×15 and QC where on has to arrive early these days in order to avoid the crowd.

   3dn TOMBOLA check out TOMBOLINO from which it derives.

   FOI 10ac VICTORIA SPONGE in Dad’s Army wasn’t Corporal Sponge’s wife Victoria?

   LOI 25ac GRASMERE

   COD 8ac AQUAMARINE

   WOD 18ac SYRINGA Ivor Novello’s favourite especially at this time of year. It is a shrub but I prefer tree. Although ‘vulgaris’, one doesn’t see them as ornamentals in China.

   DNK 19dn RAMSONS as garlic or did I- when was this last used?

   Edited at 2021-04-29 03:18 am (UTC)

2. I struggled with this one (I stick out like a sore thumb on the SNITCH), starting off slowly (FOI 21ac) and continuing likewise. DNK RAMSONS or VICTORIA SPONGE–where I tried X ORANGE. LOI EMPIRE, where I thought it would be EP inside the tricky situation; I needed EXEMPLARY to disabuse me. Liked CONSULATE, once I parsed it post-biff.
3. I couldn’t remember the name of Wordsworth’s house without aids, so I was already facing a DNF and didn’t fuss with the unknown plant (they all are) when nothing jumped out at me. But just yesterday i was in the greengrocer asking for Ramsons, and I have read bits of Addison. (And Steele, of course. My edition is a hand-me-down mid-19th century printing and it uses one of those tiny and cramped fonts which were common before graphic artists got serious about making print easy on the eyes, so a bit is usually enough even when the essays are interesting. Which is not always.) thanks, george
   Welcome to the Early Posting Club, horryd

   Edited at 2021-04-29 03:55 am (UTC)

4. …at 48 minutes, but did not fall into any of the traps. Grasmere is practically automatic for those who took the Wordsworth seminar in grad school, and Addison was my first one in. It was ramsons that was the unknown, but it seemed highly likely.
5. but with rather more PADDLING than WADDLING. Time to go chew on some wadding… excuse me.
6. 19dn got me, not a word I know/remember, so guessed ramboys ahead of ramsons and ramtots, hoping the _o_ wasn’t a proper name… Rod seemed a reasonable guess, too. Oh well. The crossing obscurity syringa built from the cryptic then vaguely remembered. Otherwise an enjoyably tricky puzzle, a few creative ways of dropping many of the single letters: consulate probably COD for its version.
   1. A slight MER at polenta for porridge, which I’d always thought was oatmeal. A post-solve check disabused of that nugget of ignorance.
      1. I’m not sure it is ignorance, whatever Collins says. Polenta is the name of a grain, and it can be prepared in various ways. One of these is similar in method and consistency to porridge but it’s just not generally called that. If you google ‘polenta porridge’ you get lots of specific recipes for a breakfast dish made with polenta, but by this standard you could use ‘porridge’ to define rice, spelt and pretty much any other grain.
         In short, harrumph.
7. I didn’t know RAMSONS, but it seemed more likely than RAMBOYS. I managed to drag up SYRINGA, although I haven’t a clue what it looks like. I was surprised that GRASMERE only has one S although the anagrist is clear (not to mention the number of letters).
8. A 47 minute DNF with ‘ramboys’ for the unknown ‘garlic’. In retrospect of course, RAMSONS sounds more plausible, as pointed out by Paul. ADDISON as an ‘Essayist’, rather than a disease, was also new. I was lucky to get SYRINGA (which I now see are lilacs), though was put off by ‘Enemy’ which I didn’t think was necessary – it’s not just the baddies who may have a ‘spy ring’.

   Best bits for me were the LAUNCH PAD and EMPIRE definitions.

9. 30 minutes, so exactly on target.

   FOI was VICTORIA SPONGE which I knew (and have eaten many a slice) but I have seen it in another puzzle within the past 7-10 days, also as an anagram, so it was very fresh in my mind.

   I’ve also seen a clue to WADDING or WADDLING very recently but without reference to the cotton sheets which came as news to me. Collins defines WADDING as: any fibrous or soft substance used as padding, stuffing, etc, esp sheets of carded cotton prepared for the purpose.

   NHO RAMSONS but followed the wordplay. This seems to be its first appearance in the TfTT era.

   ADDISON from wordplay too.

10. …Stirred for a bird, – the Achieve of, the mastery of the thing!

    20 mins pre-brekker, which will be a Bettys Fat Rascal, hoorah!
    I liked this one: Asti with polenta with ramsons followed by Victoria Sponge. Delish.
    Thanks setter and G.

    Edited at 2021-04-29 06:39 am (UTC)

    1. Drool, drool. Wot no curd cake?😊
       1. Yorkshire Tea Loaf for later.
11. Straightforward for me. Only RAMSONS caused me to pause. Glad I didn’t think of BOYS and TOTS.
12. 39 minutes, with LOI WADDING or PADDING. I plumped for the former as a waddle is more the awkward walk. COD to DOWN IN THE MOUTH, although I wasted minutes trying to justify DUMPS as the last word. We visited Dove Cottage at Grasmere a couple of years ago. Well worth a visit. POLENTA went in with a shrug, as I’m no foodie. Apart from cakes that is. To call up the memory of a Victoria Sandwich in the middle of the Sunday tea table is to be transported back in time. Quite a tough puzzle, but enjoyable. Thank you George and setter.
    1. I meant to mention that I put in DUMPS initially, which rather suggests feathers coming from the other end…
13. With just the unknown garlic left I quickly dismissed RAMSONS on the basis that son had already been used in ADDISON and the setter was unlikely to use it again. That left me with the unlikely looking RAMBOYS or RAMTOTS and I went with the latter in the vague hope it might be a French word. C’est la vie. A friend of mine was talking about wild garlic just last night. If only he’d said RAMSONS!
14. Dnk RAMSONS, and will not guess, so not submitted. Otherwise about 23′. SYRINGA came from nowhere, good clue.

    Enjoyed it all apart from not finishing.

    Thanks george and setter.

15. DNF
    Went for ramtots. NHO ramsons. Every day’s a school day on here, innit?
    Thanks, g.

16. FOI: DEPRAVE

    DNK: RAMSONS

    Thank you, glheard and the setter

17. 11:18, but with another stupid and careless error: RAMSOMS. I’m perfectly familiar with RAMSONS and thought I was following the wordplay so I’m not sure how this happened, or how I failed to spot it when checking. You see RAMSONS or wild garlic a lot in weekend food supplement recipes and posh greengrocers at this time of year, it’s a very trendy ingredient.
    1. Tons of the stuff a short walk from my house. We do pick and use it, but wild garlic is just like ordinary garlic without as much flavour, imo. Cheaper, though ..
       1. They don’t publish the UK weekend food supplements down here. Or maybe they do? But as an imperfect indication: google ramsons for sites in the UK (population 60-65M?), 140 000 hits. Google ramsons for sites in Oz (population 25-26M ~ 40%), 7000 hits (~5%). If they’re here, they’re rarely to never mentioned.
       2. People use the leaves a lot. I’m rather with you I must confess, I never really seen the appeal. I mean it’s OK, but no better than that. The other green stuff that appears at this time of year in the same places is samphire, which I am much keener on.
18. Living 3 miles from Ramsbottom (valley of wild garlic) and having had reason to visit Ramsons restaurant on business quite a few times RAMSONS was a write in. Thanks blogger and setter for my fastest solve of the week.
    1. My mother-in-law and father-in-law lived in Hawkshaw for many years up until my mother-in-law passed away. She had an antiques stall in Ramsbottom.
19. 23.13. Not the easiest for me and a very slow start before tombola enabled a surge down the LHS only to grind to a half on the right. Manacle eventually unchained me and progress became a little less stunted. LOI ramsons- NHO of it but it was either that or ramboys I suppose.

    Lots to enjoy I thought- including lewd, aquamarine. Eventually awarded a draw to tombola and manacle but that could just be down to gratitude.

    Thx setter and blogger.

20. So I’m quite surprised after reading comments so far to be able to report 19 minutes (plus a couple of seconds) for this and no pink squares.
    If, as Keriothe says “you see RAMSONS or wild garlic a lot in weekend food supplement recipes and posh greengrocers at this time of year, it’s a very trendy ingredient”, then I have either been going around with eyes wide shut or even Waitrose isn’t posh enough, and I am clearly way off trend. I guessed lucky. I watched a programme recently where a foodie gathered wild garlic for dinner, and he didn’t know what it really was, either.
    That said, POLENTA might just as well be porridge as far as I know, though I’ve got some in stock, unused for possibly years.
    I liked LAUNCH PAD, where if things are fired up(wards) its a shame if they power down, unless they’re Muskmobiles when they very cleverly do both.
    And yes, I nearly had BEDDING, struggled to put the E(urope) in the right place for EMPIRE, and took a while to realise I actually knew SYRINGA. Does anybody else remember Waddinton’s Spy Ring? Fish!

    Edited at 2021-04-29 08:41 am (UTC)

    1. I’m not sure I’ve seen it in Waitrose. I’ve seen it in the local veg shop though, usually in a fetching wicker basket in a prominent position. I think its main purpose is to make the clientele believe they are in a shop frequented by the sort of people who buy wild garlic. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that they don’t actually sell any. As for supplements, I’m talking about the sort that also have recipes by Yotam Ottolenghi which he has ‘pared down’ to a mere 87 ingredients and 14 steps, and which start with the words ‘in a pestle and mortar’. In other words, the Guardian.

       Edited at 2021-04-29 12:51 pm (UTC)

       1. You’ll doubtless be pleased that only yesterday the Guardian had an article featuring “17 wonderful ways with wild garlic”.
       2. I actually made one of YO’s recipes this week for the first time (his stuff runs in the NY Times) – leeks and lentils, not bad. Normally I skip them – as you say far too much bother.
          1. I did one of his recipes recently too: slow-cooked lamb with figs. It was absolutely delicious, and also relatively simple: quite a lot of ingredients but you just had to bung them in the oven for a very long time.
          2. Me too on the originally-herbed traditional leeks and lentils, Olivia.
          3. I just checked the leek recipe out and I think I’m going to make it this weekend.
    2. Yes we had that at home when I was young. I wonder where it went? One of my sisters will have it I expect.
    3. I’ve not seen any out in our local woods yet this year but there will be plenty out soon in the ancient Bradfield Woods and along the River Rat. You could smell them even though the flowers weren’t ready to open a couple of weeks ago. Hoping to see some in the ancient woods on the Shotley peninsula on Monday. I’ve never had any urge to pick them to cook with, though.
       1. My thanks to everyone for sharing their experience and knowledge of wild garlic. I know the plant well, and while I don’t think I’ve ever used it in cooking, I have often encountered its pungent and recognisable smell.
          It remains that I am certain I have never, ever come across the word RAMSONS before, and I my never actually try to use it while “wild garlic” remains a familiar and recognisable thing.
          Of course, if Tesco’s (or currently my preferred Sainsbury’s) starts listing it, I will at least know what it is and seize the opportunity to tell everyone in earshot what it really is to show how sophisticated I now am.

          Edited at 2021-04-29 09:38 pm (UTC)

21. 13:56 Finished the bottom half with barely an answer in the top and finished in the NE with EXEMPLARY and EMPIRE holding me up at the end. I liked the LAUNCH PAD best
22. I found this easy to start, rather harder to finish .. nho ramsons (wife of course knew it instantly) but the sons sounded more plausible than the boys or the tots.
    Polenta, as K says above, is only a porridge if you want it to be. Mine is dried and in a jar.
    OED: “Fine meal made from chestnuts, barley, or another grain; (in later use chiefly) maize flour, esp. as used in Italian cookery”
23. Well, I made a complete cods of this one. RAMBOYS, BEDDING and EDDISON doing for me. All plausible I thought. Maybe not.

    Last two in EMPIRE and EXEMPLARY where I was another looking at _ EP_R_ for ages. Oh well

    Thanks George as ever.

24. A good work-out. For some time I managed to convince myself that Aquamarine was in fact a reasonably straightforward clue for Drummerboy ( fignting man following a colour). Twerp.

    Read some Addison a long time ago but have never read any of Ramson’s Sparrows and Amazons books.

    Thanks to glheard and setter.

25. The Bard clearly a cruciverbalist at heart. Found this distinctly tricky, taking nigh on 40 minutes and even then forgetting to re-think 15 and so ending with padding and a dnf. Guessed Ramsons. Quite liked the straight-faced 14. And the neat side-track to Mrs W.’s home.
26. It is a poor crossword that has more than one plant within. It is a terrible crossword that has more than one plant that I’ve never heard of.

    All correct but with no idea about the crossing plants, had to cheat to complete the grid.

    Call it a blind spot or a lack of education, but such reliance on a field in which I have completely no interest and consequently have no chance of solving without resorting to aids takes away some of the enjoyment.

    1. Have some sympathy but we may be in the minority…
    2. I also have sympathy on the plant front but RANSOM is a foodie word too, and therefore totally fair game. 😉

       Edited at 2021-04-29 09:27 pm (UTC)

27. Beaten fair and square in the SE corner, with SYRINGA, RAMSONS and GRASMERE all unknown and insoluble for me due to interconnections. Thanks to setter and blogger for the entertainment even so. We don’t come here to win every day, after all.
28. Easy going in 25 mins until I had to toss a coin between RAMSONS and RAMBOYS. It came up heads but should have been tails.
29. Thanks GL for the parsing of ASTI, which baffled me. Like others I abhor the botanical answers as they reveal the depth of my ignorance ( with the possible exception of eucalypts and other antipodean flora), so I was happy to get RAMSONS and SYRINGA from the wordplay. Narrowly avoided paddling in favour of waddling.
    32’23”
30. It’s the time of year for “ramps” (which is the local NY name for RAMSONS) and I expect we’ve got them in our woods but I don’t go down to the woods in spring in case of a big surprise – we’ve got bears and they’re not teddies. It’s also almost lilac time here and it probably already is at Kew. Slow start but I got the drift. Nice one. 16.07
31. DNK Ramsons – think it unfair for wordplay to enable three solutions which are equally plausible if you don’t know the answer.
    DNK syringa – agree with the comment that ‘enemy’ is misleading as spy rings can belong to us as much as the enemy. Was trying to think of common expressions for the secret services of hostile nations but gave up
    DNK s could stand for succeeded so was looking for got, won or some other such word from which a homophone could be derived. Failed miserably, of course.
    DNK polenta was a porridge (but the wordplay was clear)
    Other than those, enjoyed the puzzle. Was particularly pleased to separate Mrs from Wordsworth rather than indulging in my most common solving failing.
    Thanks setter and blogger.
32. I’ve seen wild garlic but wouldn’t plump between the various boys and tots.
    Remember POLENTA from O-level Geo, but thought that it was usual in S Italy, the poorer half. Wrong; specifically N Italy. So half a century or so warps the facts. Below from Wiki:
    Polenta
    Any of various types and consistencies of a starchy accompaniment to a meal made from coarse maize-meal porridge, sometimes fried or grilled.
    As the name is older (Roman Empire time) than the discovery of America and its maize it ought not to be specific about the grain used.
    Andyf
    1. The words ‘ought not’ ought not appear in any discussion about the meaning of a word. Words mean what they mean, not what someone thinks they should mean. History and etymology are particularly irrelevant : ‘polenta’ originally comes from the Latin for ‘peeled barley’ but even Collins wouldn’t define it like that today.
       Rant over!
33. Another day another DNF. Felt like I was plodding rather slowly round the grid. Finished the puzzle in around half an hour but plumped for ramtots over ramsons. Just didn’t know the word. Grasmere was a nice clue, especially the lift and separate of Mrs from Wordsworth.
34. I got through most of this one without too much trouble, but became becalmed with 5a, 5d, 18a and 19d still to do. I eventually lifted and separated correctly to get EMPIRE, which led to EXEMPLARY, which allowed my to construct SYRINGA(which then rang a bell), and confirmed that the garlic started with RAM. I’m glad I didn’t think of boys or tots! Failed to parse ASTI. 41:46. Thanks setter and George.
    1. I had exactly the same experience as you with the final four clues.
35. Well in my book, POLENTA is certainly not PORRIDGE, as I used to sell both in my shop. If someone sued for porridge, and I gave them polenta…..
    And as above, I don’t like crossing unknown plants, albeit that the cryptics were clear. Grasmere is my second home, recommend Allan Bank, great for kids or in my case grandkids.
36. ….although I must thank George for parsing ASTI, which I biffed, having tried to use both ‘up’ and ‘about’ as instructions. SOLSTICE was parsed post-solve.

    FOI LEWD
    LOI EMPIRE
    COD SYRINGA
    TIME 9:14

37. FOI ventilate. Heading for a DNS rather than a DNF. Then it all started to come together, bottom half first, then top. I’m surprised and chuffed to finish this. LOI Solstice, COD, all of them. Thanks, blogger, and setter. GW.
38. Slowed down by having DUMPS for a long time

    RAMSONS a write in once I corrected to MOUTH; in fact I think it’s what made me realise it was wrong. Plenty of the stuff round here but as the Guardian article recommended, wash it well if you pick it near the path. Cant really see what the fuss is about and madness to pay for the stuff. Made the obligatory pesto out of it once. We pretended it was (a) tasty and (b) worth doing but never again. The folly of your thirties.

    Otherwise good stuff. A bit of a struggle but the w/p got you there, even for the dreaded plant answer

    Thanks all for the comments, the setter for setting and George for the blog

39. If the setter intends ‘st’, they should use ‘street’. Empires more or less disappeared over fifty years ago. Spy rings aren’t necessarily enemy agents. We had plenty of them ourselves. And ‘launch pad’ is just bizarre.

    Apart from that it was alright. (Mr Grumpy)

40. Pretty much exactly one hour, with (oh dear!) the PADDING and ADDISON crossing my LOI. Actually I had BEDDING originally but EDDISON didn’t sound quite right and I was so pleased to have an A instead of the E it never occurred to me that there was an alternative to PADDING. Yes, WADDING is very slightly better, but so very slightly that it seems the setter had not really done his homework properly. As for the discussion above about RAMSONS and the alternatives to this word, which I also didn’t know: what I find very strange and quite illuminating about filling in previously unknown words like this is that you do actually have a sense that RAMSONS is more likely to be a real English word than RAMBOYS or RAMTOTS — English has a flavour about it which can actually help you make reasonable choices in matters like this.

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