Times 27429 – the Marmite crossword?

Author   piquetPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
I loved this one. It’s quirky. Some of you probably hated it. It’s that kind of puzzle, I think. No dodgy words, a few smart definitions (6a, 13d, 17d for example), and only a couple of quibbles (didn’t much like the def. in 11a, for one). You need to be old enough to know what’s going on at 15d. It took me 20 minutes, average for me, with 6a my LOI once I stopped thinking about Her Majesty’s unscheduled bedroom visitor.

Compliments to the setter. I love Marmite too.

Across
1 Drew up school notice about bible studies (8)
PREPARED – PREP school, AD around RE.
6 Queen’s stalker‘s quip retracted? About time! (6)
TOMCAT – MOT = quip, as in “bon mot”, reversed, CA = about T time.
9 Shower that’s painful in delicate extremities (6)
DOUCHE – OUCH that’s painful, inside D and E the extremes of delicate. Another bit of French.
10 Canal maybe, wide, Wear and Tay somehow combined (8)
WATERWAY – (W WEAR TAY)*.
11 Woman briefly recalled what may be top of volcano (4)
ISLE – ELSI(E) is reversed; I think the setter here is saying an island could be of volcanic origin, its above-sea part being the top of a volcano, as in Hawaii or the Canaries. Seems a weird way to pick a definition for this simple answer.
12 Instruction to butcher to be dismissed (3,3,4)
GET THE CHOP – Double definition, one whimsical.
14 Warning sign on entrance: “No English here” (3,5)
RED LIGHT – RE = on, DELIGHT = entrance, delete the E for English.
16 A very old wife’s state (4)
AVOW – A V(ery) O(ld) W(ife).
18 Architect’s engineers blocking adversaries at bridge (4)
WREN – Re the Englineers, go into W and N, parts of opposite teams in bridge, i.e. N / S and E / W.
19 Add zip to green pants in special exhibit initially (8)
ENERGISE – (GREEN)* followed by I S E the initial letters of in special exhibit.
21 Their lunch is wild and abandoned? (2,3,5)
IN THE LURCH – (THEIR LUNCH)*.
22 Peter has a following in the home counties (4)
SAFE – A F(ollowing) inside SE the South-East of England. The origin of PETER meaning safe apparently dates back to the 1600s and is vaguely connected to St Peter having the keys to the gates of Heaven, allegedly.
24 State capital almost calm during brief salute (8)
HONOLULU – I think this is LUL(L) inside HONOU(R). I thought right away of a state capital ending in U then worked out the parsing, I hope.
26 Handy American juice promoting energy (6)
USEFUL – US = American, FUEL has its E moved forward.
27 Bug transmitters in trustee’s banks (6)
TSETSE – SETS could be transmitters, I guess, although I’d think of them more as receivers. Insert SETS into T E the ‘banks’ of trustee.
28 Colouring or baking agent lacking in a filling pudding (8)
DYESTUFF – DUFF would be a filling pudding; into that you can put YE(A)ST.
Down
2 Really old oak trees survive principally — on these (5)
ROOTS – Initial letters of really old oak trees survive.
3 Ready meal needed batter, as Spooner might have said? (6,5)
PACKED LUNCH – Spooner might have said “lacked punch”.
4 Again bring in fruit, no good at first (2-6)
RE-ENGAGE – the fruit GREENGAGE has its G dropped.
5 Where local sports fans head? Absolutely (4,2,3,6)
DOWN TO THE GROUND – Double definition, one as in “it suits you down to the ground”.
6 Put out your old clothes and the rest (6)
TETCHY – Your old = THY, which ‘clothes’ ETC = and the rest.
7 Pollute nearly all the planet (3)
MAR – nearly all of MARS.
8 A paper turns up containing a device that’s similar (9)
ANALOGOUS – A, then the paper here is the SUN, it’s reversed and contains A LOGO.
13 Nick record fee on these deviously (6,5)
CHARGE SHEET – CHARGE = fee, (THESE)*.
15 Bound over to accept old copy that’s inaccurate (9)
ERRONEOUS – SURE = bound, as in ‘bound to be…’. Reverse it = ER US, insert RONEO an old format of copying machine (pre Xerox) or verb from using it.
17 Shed many layers there (8)
HENHOUSE – Hens lay, in a henhouse.
20 Pull a couple of lines on river (6)
ALLURE – A, L, L, URE the river.
23 Mess up surface of front edge of sail (5)
FLUFF – the leading edge of a sail is the LUFF, and F is the surface of front.
25 Expose yogurts, ignoring the odd bits (3)
OUT – y O g U r T s.

80 comments on “Times 27429 – the Marmite crossword?”

  2. 11:53 … another Marmite fan here. Enjoyed this a lot.

    Knew all the necessary bar Roneo®, where the checkers and definition were enough.

    I love the ‘lacked punch’ Spoonerism. We have seen it a few times before, though only in Jumbos and on weekends, according to the LJ site search.

    Thanks setter / Pip

  3. 22 mins with yoghurt (ignoring the odd bits).
    Hmmm… but I do like Marmite.
    Roneo and the volcano thing spoiled it for me.
    Thanks setter and Pip.
    1. I forgot to mention that I am old enough to remember RONEO and even how to spell it so I’m ashamed to admit that I put RONIO in the grid because of a momentary aberration thinking that -IOUS was the correct ending of the target answer.

      As for ‘RE / Bible studies’ as queried above, this may be another case of expert knowedge getting in the way of common usage – I suffer from it myself occasionally over musical notation and directions amongst other things. As a school subject within my own experience religious ‘stuff’ has been variously called Bible stories/studies, Scripture, RE and RI and possibly other things as well. As far as I’m concerned it’s all interchangeable and I’d bet it is to many others too.

      1. The point is that the bible only plays a minor role in RE these days so in common modern usage they certainly aren’t interchangeable. My son chose to take it for GCSE and I thought it a good choice, whereas I certainly wouldn’t have approved of him taking bible studies. Mind you he probably only chose it because he thought it would annoy me so I’m half expecting him to switch to geography.
        1. Yes, I’m aware that the RE syllabus covers a broader spectrum these days but at one time or another all the termsabove have been used as the name of the school subject in the timetable as referred to by pupils, and perhaps even teachers, regardless of the exact content. In my view it’s fine for setters to draw on usage past and present rather than being obliged to reflect only the latest interpretations.

          Edited at 2019-08-14 09:34 am (UTC)

          1. Personally I see them as fundamentally different things: as I said I would object on principle to my kids being taught bible studies (or Koran studies or Talmud studies or whatever) whereas I think RE is quite an interesting subject. I guess it’s one of those where you can debate whether an archaism indicator is needed, but in any event I can’t say it particularly bothers me.
            1. When I was at school RE was the one mandatory feature of the syllabus, so our teacher took the opportunity to tell us about the history of how the Bible was put together. Consequently I have never believed it to be the Truth, although I did need to learn the correct replies to be accepted for confirmation as a member of the Church of England, which was a requirement for acceptance as an undergraduate at Selwyn.
  4. I seem to be making a habit at the moment of falling asleep part way through a late-night solve so that I have no solving time to offer, and so it is again with this one.

    On resumption this morning the remaining third of the grid fell into place swiftly apart from 11ac which I think is a flawed clue anyway -at least that’s my excuse as I had considered ISLE as a possibility (along with ESME) but couldn’t see what either had to do with tops of volcanos. I see it now, sort of, and rather grudgingly.

    16ac is a little unusual with its answer consisting mostly of the first letters of words but requiring no ‘first-letter’ indicator because they are all stand-alone abbreviations.

    Is a tsetse fly a bug? (Discuss)

            1. Tsetse is Diptera, and therefore most definitely not a bug. This is another Americanism that’s creeping in, and it should be swatted on sight.
  5. 10’21”, so flying today (cf QC yesterday). ERRONEOUS and TSETSE unparsed, but clear. Why so few posts by 8am BST?

    Incidentally, does anyone know how I can tell The Times that there is one letter wrong in the Quintagram?

    Thanks Pip and setter.

    1. My impression has long been that this site gets much quieter in August, presumably because a lot of people are on their hols.
      1. I went a whole week without solving or commenting when I was on holiday, which in a way is quite odd. I mean I had wifi, my laptop and plenty of time on my hands. Whereas when I’m working and commuting I almost always find the time despite ostensibly having less of it.
  6. I was an RE publisher and can assure you that RE and Bible Studies are not synonymous. I have mentioned this in Chambers Crossword Manual and informed many a crossword editor, but (alas!) it seems to no avail. Next bring on Rev.= clergyman! Izetti
  7. 57 minutes, with about half of that, it feels like, spent on LOI 6 TOMCAT. Took me an absolute age to think even of the “tom” bit, and then I dopily didn’t put it together with “cat” for another five minutes. Odd, how sometimes I seem to find one particular clue far, far harder than all the rest…
  8. I don’t like Marmite but had no problem with this. Distinctly don’t like 11A ISLE

    Well remember RONEO machines – a great device for covering one in ink. The girls would prepare the template and then get the lads to set the thing up. It was off with the jacket and on with a pinny and some gloves. Great fun!

  9. Dithered over ESME and ISLE. I think, on reflection, that ISLE is an OK clue. There was some interesting stuff here. I liked ‘nick record’ and RED LIGHT, HENHOUSE and RE-ENGAGE.
  10. but it is no longer available in Shanghai. No problem in Hong Kong or Singapore. We have had a reliable trafficking service for many years. Beware of New Zealand Marmite (in a red topped Coleman type jar!) – it is Vegemite in diguise!Yukk!!

    I was badly slowed down at 14ac when I slung in WET PAINT which worked for a while. But before it dried Doc Spooner showed up! I was in the wrong ‘district’! (RED LIGHT it was!)

    FOI 16ac AVOW

    LOI 11ac ISLE bloody odd clue!

    COD 17dn HEN HOUSE (the red light district in HK I am reliably informed).

    WOD 3dn PACKED LUNCH with Marmite and cheese sarnies. Yum!

    My parents had a RONEO at home for ‘Little Theatre’ flyers! I learnt a lot of bad language from it.

    I forgot to mention SECONDARY MODERN yesterday and the difference between private and public schools in the UK.
    But I thought better of it. It would only cause trouble.

    Note to Lord Keriothe – 7:44 is super quick! I was a stately half hour longer.

    Edited at 2019-08-14 09:05 am (UTC)

    1. For me 7:44 is very quick. Super quick is under 5 minutes, something I have only ever achieved in 2018.
      1. Does anyone remember ‘Splendo’ the English ‘Parwill’?
        It came in low-profile jar with a green, metal top which was lethal to five year old fingers. That was in the East Midlands and is a happy childhood memory.
    2. I was raised on NZ Marmite and I can tell you it is most definitely NOT Vegemite in disguise! It is subtly sweeter, with a more generous bouquet and gentler mouth feel. I now live in Australia, and have been unable to fully transition to Vegemite.
  11. Biffed loads of this and got very grumpy finally at spending two whole tedious minutes on ISLE, bemoaning the awful def and the random female. This tainted the more entertaining a satisfying content to be found, such as the witty HENHOUSE and the Spoonerism. I love the Spooner clues. 22 mins.
    Your commentary, Pip, is very apposite — thank you!

    Edited at 2019-08-14 09:01 am (UTC)

  12. Yes, some good defs, especially for TOMCAT and HENHOUSE, although like some others I thought the odd def for ISLE, my last in, let the side down a bit. I liked the parsing of ERRONEOUS with its reminder of the RONEO copying machine. Finished in 43 minutes.

    The antipodean version of Marmite doesn’t have the same adjectival sense, simply because everyone LUFF(s) it.

    Thanks to setter and blogger.

  13. 7:44. I thought this was going to be super-quick but a few slowed me down a bit at the end.
    I like puzzles like this because I have a pathetic needy fragile ego and they make me feel clever, but there was a bit too much biffing for a really satisfying solve.
    I can take or leave Marmite. What an incredibly successful advertising concept: it has entered the language.

    Edited at 2019-08-14 08:22 am (UTC)

    1. I have a recollection of a comic discussing this (possibly Richard Herring?) – Marmite: you either love it, or hate it, or just have no particularly strong feelings about it like pretty much any other foodstuff.
      1. I seem to remember Dave Gorman doing an extended piece on Marmite in one of his early TV shows, but I think he was railing at redundancy in the phrase “It’s like Marmite, you either love it or you hate it.”
        1. I recall being told in Australia that the original name of Vegemite was “Parwill” as a direct competitor to Marmite. The advertising slogan was “If Marmite…then Parwill!”.
      2. He was discussing it though, wasn’t he? And therefore advertising the product. [shakes fist at infuriatingly clever marketing so-and-sos]
    2. Right, about Marmite. The folks over at Bovril must surely be gnashing their teeth..
  14. Thanks,Pip, especially for ANALOGOUS, HONOLULU and ISLE.
    I enjoyed the Spoonerism and as a Brit in NZ, I still enjoy Vegemite!
    LOI was TOMCAT.
    Slightly annoyed by three comments from Anonymous. I wish people would put a name to their posts.
    2. To be fair, one of the anon. comments is signed Izetti – a distinguished visitor from the QC (and aka Don Pasquale in another venue). Otherwise I quite agree with you Martin.
      1. Thanks, Olivia. I missed seeing Izetti’s name. I think what annoys me about anonymous comments is that they are often negative.
  15. Didn’t know RONEO, but solved from definition and checkers. I also failed to parse RED LIGHT and just biffed HONOLULU. DOUCHE was my FOI and the odd ISLE my last. Some enjoyable stuff here. Liked PACKED LUNCH. 22:08. Thanks setter and Pip.
  16. ….like a TOMCAT with 10 yards start on the vet. Keriothe appears to have a yard more to play with.

    I biffed RED LIGHT, HONOLULU, and ERRONEOUS, but all were parsed within a minute or so of finishing.

    Love Marmite, hated 11A (my ex mother-in-law is called Elsie).

    I went DOWN TO THE GROUND last night, and was rewarded by seeing my team win for the first time this season, at the fourth attempt, in a five goal thriller.

    FOI DOUCHE
    LOI ANALOGOUS
    COD DYESTUFF
    TIME 8:09

  17. Isle for volcano is pretty damn weird, and Tomcat – also my LOI – doesn’t work. Sorry, but it’s got to be ‘bon mot’; ‘mot’, alone, simply cannot equate to ‘quip’. A v v big stretch, setter.

    Enjoyed the rest of it, though, particularly COD 15d. It’s a very long time since I heard the word ‘roneo’, or handled one. Thank God for computers.

    1. This isn’t true in French, and The Usual Dictionaries all give ‘mot’ as either ‘short for bon mot’ (Collins, ODO) or an equivalent in its own right (‘a pithy word or saying’, Chambers).
    2. Mot is in Collins, whose opinion trumps yours I am afraid, Mr Anon. There is also the mot juste
  18. Detained by Isle for 3+ mins and eventually I bunged in Esme. Also one typo. Re-eegage.

    I don’t think I like Marmite. But I love twiglets! Same thing, sort of?

  19. I wouldn’t have said there were things here which annoyed me, but I certainly had to stop to think about the volcano/ISLE connection. I also couldn’t make sense of 8dn, but that was because I was trying to spell it as ANALAGOUS. On the whole I enjoyed this, even the often-divisive Spoonerism.
    1. Snap on analagous. And I’m an electronics engineer, often ordered and used ICs from chipmaker Analog Devices.
      Regarding Marmite & peanut butter below: in Oz they tried selling Vegemite mixed with cheese, another common sandwich filling, but it was not popular.
  20. Marmite – yum yum, especially with tomatoes cooked in butter on toast. Much nicer than my friend’s weird concoction of Marmite and banana sandwiches!

    This crossword – also tasty. Lovely surfaces, a satisfying mix of gentle clues as starters, then some meatier ones to spice up the mix, and even a plum duff to finish! Not actually my loi but hey …

    Thanks Pip for the very clear explanations – I couldn’t parse erroneous Honolulu or red light. We had Roneos when I started work back in the early 70s – what a palaver. One slip of the typewriter and you had to start all over again.

    FOI Roots
    LOI Tomcat – liked it once I finally worked out what was going on
    COD Henhouse – first rule of COD , it made me smile
    Earworm Has changed from Mr Blue Sky to It’s Raining Again

    1. Shopping last week, I noticed that you can now buy peanut butter with Marmite, introduced apparently because so many people already made this as a sandwich at home and had asked for the two to be combined…
      1. You want a weird sandwich? My favourite is peanut butter and piccalilli. (Try it before you go bleeeech!)
  21. 17 minutes. I remember using a Roneo with friends for publishing a sf fanzine many years ago – I think the US equivalent was called a ‘mimeo’ (Mimeograph) – we later upgraded to Gestetner.
    2. Thank you – I was trying to remember the name of those intimidating machines, which required stencils typed on special waxed paper, and you kindly provide Gestetner.
    3. I well remember roneoed SF fanzines. All that purple stuff… But I came to fandom much later than you and my first zine was done on a gestetner. Then I graduated to offset litho. Them were the days, my friend!
  22. I was meant to be playing golf at 1130 today.Despite an understanding that we play if the course is open, the prospect was so bleak that we cancelled.
    So I had time for another 15×15 and, like yesterday, it was enjoyable and doable.
    I started with ROOTS and then generally found something I could get. A US state capital came up again -maybe I should try learning them again -and my last two were TETCHY and finally TOMCAT. COD to Henhouse. ISLE unparsed like some others.
    I had MUMTAZ at 6a for a while which I know is a word and also the name of an Indian restaurant where years ago I ended up with friends after the test at Lord’s was rained off. Subliminal perhaps.
    David

  23. Like others, a quick solve for me, and like horryd that means a bit over the half hour.
    On the more important questions:
    I like Marmite;
    After yesterday’s informative discussion I looked forward to fisticuffs over TseTse being a bug or not;
    I very much liked Isle after I saw it – sounds as if I’m alone there. My moan is that the ‘reversed five letter woman’s name, missing a letter’ bit could be just about anything – an even more generous setter’s aid than ‘note’ meaning one of the letters A through F.

  24. 19 mins for this little offering which unlike yesterday was harder than the quickie. LOI TOMCAT Having just offloaded our Tomcat kitten to my daughter because my wife couldn’t stop sneezing, it’s a touchy subject. Knew RONEO but never noticed it till I got here. Too much biffing methinks.
    Ah yes the topic of the day. It has to be proper crunchy peanut butter and the new ‘extra old’ marmite. Try it…
    1. Following your recommendation I just have! Not too sure – a bit claggy for me, sorry. Have swapped peanut butter for cheddar – but no banana 😊
      1. how about Marmite, PB (crunchy of course), cheddar (extra mature) and banana; now there’s a whole meal in a toastie!

        re buying Marmite and PB ready mixed – I prefer to do my own

  25. I thought this was going to be one of my very rare under 10s but like everyone else I fetched up on the volcanic ISLE for several minutes at the end. Esme (with love and squalor) – nope, Ashe – why?. Mimeograph and Cyclostyle used to turn up in the NY Times puzzles (at least I think that’s how I know them) but I’d forgotten Roneo, if I ever knew him. 14.07
  26. 22 minutes, with far too long spent on tomcat (LOI) due to the clever surface misleading me. Seemed to be quite a lot of reverses and truncations today, and I began to speed up when I saw the pattern. I actually saw Honolulu instantly because of the double truncation.
    COD red light.
  27. I found this very tasty. RONEO only vaguely remembered. I liked RED LIGHT and DYESTUFF. 14:17
  28. Not a fan of marmite, but with ERRONEOUS going in without understanding the wordplay, this was one of my fastest solves, at 6:02.
  29. 16’35, remember roneos but not during the clue which biffed, not too sure on honour and salute, isle seems OK if unexpected (part of the game), I think mot is OK for quip, a bit worried by the ‘Root’s erroneous’ column right now.
  30. Reached my 64th birthday without knowing that Peter could mean Safe – but I am now made aware and possibly will not forget.
    On the earlier reference to New Zealand marmite. My recollection is that New Zealand marmite was rather sweet and I much preferred Vegemite in NZ being savoury and hence closer to UK marmite.
    1. .. and a safecracker is known as a peterman. Clearly you are not moving in the wrong circles 🙂

      Both marmite and vegemite are as nothing, compared to Bovril

      1. For once I am in accord with JerryW. I am not ashamed to say I eat Bovril on toast for brek every morning except Sundays, when marmalade gets an outing. But a boiled egg and soldiers or scrambled eggs have to be with Marmite toast.
  31. Like others my LOI was ISLE after some rumination and finally seeing some female name heading back. Yes, that definition is way out of the ordinary, and maybe fair, but unusual. But it’s clearly true that a lot of isles are the remnants of old volcanoes. My vote is that I don’t like it. Liked everything else though. Regards.
  32. 31:45 I would’ve been quite a bit quicker but failing to see queen as anything other than the usual ER or R meant tomcat took me ages to crack. I really must come up with a better strategy for these elusive answers than staring aimlessly and hoping inspiration will strike. I enjoyed red light, tetchy, charge sheet and henhouse. Happy to report that I’m too young to remember Roneo, fortunately erroneous was pretty clear. Slight delay at 28ac where my duff was initially a dick (as in a spotted one).
  33. I seem to be getting quicker each day this week, today at 15.33. I thought the ISLE clue was OK, in that I could justify it with the rather woolly definition and the wordplay, might have accepted, given the random name aspect that it might have a different solution, would have lodged a VAR request.
    Don’t think I worked out HONOLULU, so thanks for being determined, Pip.
    Liked the queen’s stalker.
  34. A Roneo for me was a twin drum electronic device: your original (which could have pictures) went on one side,and a plastic stencil on the other. A scanning light produced an electric spark which burned through the stencil as the drum whizzed round. The stencil was then transferred to a (Gestetner) duplicator, initially hand cranked but later motorised (luxury!). Quite surprisingly good copies. Considerable carcinogenic fumes.
    My local Church office still has a device which scans originals from the glass onto a stencil, and then runs off the wet ink copies. Much cheaper than the neighbouring all-singing, all-dancing scanner/copier/laser printer machine, at least for longer BW runs.
  35. Gnaargh! I stared and stared at 6d, before deciding that only TETCHY and ‘patchy’ would fit. And then somehow I managed to reject TETCHY and gave up. Sometimes I despair of myself.
  37. Like most LOI was ISLE with a mer.
    For 27a TSETSE, I thought this was a clever all-in-one , with the definition ‘bug transmitter’ rather than ‘bug’ . The tsetse fly transmits the trypanosomes which cause sleeping sickness.
    All the talk of marmite, vegemite etc has prompted us to have toast and marmite with morning tea at the end of this 24 min solve!

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