Times 26,879: One 20ac Blogged By Another

Author   VerlainePosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
In an effort to “show, not tell” what happened to me at the championships last weekend, I went down by one measly clue in this puzzle, pondering long and hard over 21dn before unerringly changing my initial correct answer to a wrong one. Criminy, what happened, did they use up all their checkers on the championship puzzles or something? If TOPS is a less good answer than BOSS it’s not much less good, and it’s salt to the wound that I had BOSS in there first before deciding that it was less Times-y a word than TOPS and changing it so that I wouldn’t be “doing Saturday all over again”. Add this to the fact that 9ac, until someone tells me what I’m missing, seems like a very clumsy clue, and that I became slightly aggrieved over the (admittedly valid) definition part of 10ac, and you have a recipe for a rare thumbs down to a Friday crossword from me.

But maybe not, as there are some really good clues in here too. 1dn went in unparsed from “gene” and an M but with hindsight I love both the definition and the surface. Anything that puts me in mind of Lee Marvin drawling “dude” at people is a great clue, and there are just some solid pieces of cluing in here like 11dn, 23ac, 25ac: I’ll give me COD to 23ac as it’s an anagram you might not expect, with an anagram indicator you might not expect, the combination resulting in a very smooth surface, NICE. Thanks setter! Now just give us an amnesty on 21dn and all grumbles will be withdrawn…

ACROSS
1 Large bike shifting with car moving to the side (8)
CRABLIKE – (L BIKE + CAR*) [“shifting”]
5 Trail leading away from street in Irish port (6)
GALWAY – LAG [trail] reversed before WAY [street]
9 Pop group we hear in Brighton, for example, sticks out? (4,4)
ROCK BAND – I *think* this is a homophone [“we hear”] of ROCK BANNED [in Brighton, for example, sticks | out], but man, that’s a tortuous clue in service of an only mediocre surface…
10 Go on hike, causing commotion (6)
UPTURN – TURN [go] on UP [hike, as in “up the price”]. Initially wasn’t quite sure how “upturn” was a commotion rather than, say, an improvement, but a visit to the dictionary vindicates it…
12 Explosive aftermath features constant booming around compartment (8,5)
MUSHROOM CLOUD – MUSH C LOUD [features (British slang for a geezer’s fizzog) | constant (the speed of light) | booming] around ROOM [compartment]
15 Threadbare children: yours, not ours! (5)
SEEDY – SEED [children] + all the letters in Y{ours} not in OURS
16 To use household appliance, mother finds great power source (6,3)
HOOVER DAM – HOOVER [to use household appliance] + DAM [mother]
17 Benefit to be had saving pennies in, say, 40s and 50s? (6,3)
MIDDLE AGE – MILEAGE [benefit to be had] “saving” D D [pennies]. Surely I can’t be middle-aged already? I’m young, I tell you, yooooooung
19 Capital made of short time with King (5)
MINSK – MINS [short time] with K [King]. The capital city of Belarus.
20 Keep buzzer close to television after power failure? (5-4-4)
MIGHT-HAVE-BEEN – HAVE BEE [keep | buzzer] + {televisio}N, after MIGHT [power]
22 Place for post: best inside ring? (6)
OUTBOX – place for post as in email inboxes and outboxes; if you best someone in the ring, you out-box them.
23 Guerrilla force once coveting tanks (4,4)
VIET CONG – (COVETING*) [“tanks”]
25 Pet butterfly? (6)
STROKE – double def. Pet as is caress, stroke as in swimming.
26 Without solicitors, international body to attempt retreat (8)
UNBIDDEN – UN BID DEN [international body | attempt | retreat]

DOWN
1 Gene set Henry right, filling Perry in a little (10)
CHROMOSOME – H R [Henry | right] “filling” COMO [Perry] in, + SOME [a little]
2 Bender that couples went on in ancient times, it’s said (3)
ARC – homophone of the ARK where the animals went in two by two. Bender as in “something that bends”
3 Valance, perhaps, having no ties (7)
LIBERTY – double def. Nothing to do with frou-frou bedrooms, as I originally assumed: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is a damn great John Ford Western.
4 Top dog in the humanities etc, with no time for one in a suit? (4,2,6)
KING OF HEARTS – KING OF {t}HE ARTS, losing one (but strangely not the other) T for time.
6 Authorise software range (7)
APPROVE – APP ROVE [software | range]
7 Keen to be got out of this massacre site? (7,4)
WOUNDED KNEE – a reverse cryptic: apply WOUNDED to KNEE as an anagrind and find “keen”
8 Vote against reversing good, positive principle (4)
YANG – NAY [vote against] reversing + G [good]
11 Old person’s gone off with raincoat (12)
OCTOGENARIAN – (GONE + RAINCOAT*) [“off”]
13 Driver’s guide’s short swimming trunks matched Cockney woman’s (11)
SPEEDOMETER – SPEEDO{s} [“short” swimming trunks] + MET ‘ER [matched | “Cockney” woman’s]
14 Preserving piece that constitutes incriminating evidence (7,3)
SMOKING GUN – SMOKING [preserving, in a culinary sense] + GUN [piece, as in a mobster’s armament]
18 See that old Olympic team of ours breaks record (7)
LOGBOOK – LOOK [see], that O GB [old | Olympic team of ours] “breaks”. Or possibly LOOK is imperative – “see that!”
19 Experts filling shirt seams up (7)
MAESTRI – hidden reversed in {sh}IRT SEAM{s}
21 Excellent point that’s raised (4)
BOSS – double def, and tragically nothing to do with reversing a word for a point in space to find TOPS
24 Cut price rum (3)
ODD – ODD{s} [“cut” price, on a racecourse]

70 comments on “Times 26,879: One 20ac Blogged By Another”

  1. 40 mins with toast and lime marmalade. Bread from the fantastic Archipelago bakery in Edinburgh.
    Hey kids (or should I call you “seed”), stop causing an “upturn”; shall we get some “in Brighton, for example, sticks”? Good grief.
    Also I put in TOPS – which I count as correct.
    Mostly I liked: Pet butterfly (although possibly a chestnut), Outbox, crablike, Perry Como, and Octogenarian (COD).
    Thanks dodgy setter and generous V.
  2. 21d has to be TOPS? No idea about ROCK BAND or UPTURN, just biffed. An unsatisfactory feel to this crossword.
  4. It’s not often I come away from a puzzle not knowing what’s going on, but add a failure to parse GALWAY (and not knowing it was a port, but what else?) to not thinking ODDS for price, and thinking “point” could well lead to SPOT at least as easily as it could lead to BOSS (and in fact not thinking of BOSS at all because I’d got TOPS) and you have the perfect recipe for resignation.

    Experience says that setters and editors will always collude in denying perfectly valid alternatives answers, and in any case the software can’t cope.

    ROCK BAND was so nearly a good clue, and WOUNDED KNEE was a nice reverse clue, if not a nice experience for those involved. Indeed, that and LIBERTY were two answers which depended for me on IMDB: Bury My Heart at and The Man who Shot respectively.

    A somewhat surreal, and given that TOPS won’t be accepted, slightly dispiriting use of 30 minutes.

    1. I really feel that if this had been a championship puzzle they would have allowed either answer rather than face the wrath of 20+ angry competitors… *so many* people preferred TOPS to BOSS here. But I am awaiting an editorial statement!
      1. Perhaps this grid was a competition possibility, floated as “our one chance to possibly ever return a different champion than Magoo”, which would be understandable really…
  5. I loved this, apart from the couple of bits I didn’t. Verlaine has already said everything I might have wanted to so I’ll shut up, apart from echoing admiration for the Viet Cong anagram / surface and bemoaning another TOPS.

    Edited at 2017-11-10 08:43 am (UTC)

  8. 19:45, with a similar feeling of irritation at some of this. However I solved on my iPad standing up on the train, which gave me the opportunity to discover some new and imaginative ways the team at the Times have found to bugger up the club site (today’s treats: top line of the grid only partially visible; timer not visible at all while solving) so that may have influenced my mood.
    I’m claiming TOPS as a correct answer. I can’t see how it could possibly be disallowed.

    Edited at 2017-11-10 08:59 am (UTC)

  9. 20.04 and thoroughly enjoyed this quirky offering until I saw that my score was not in the 800s as I had confidently expected, having followed vinyl1’s advice to check typing as I went along. You can probably guess the reason. It wouldn’t have helped if BOSS had occurred to me because I have never heard it used adjectivally.
  10. I was too weary to continue unaided with so many unsolved as the hour approached and having run out of ideas. As it turned out I needed help with three, MIGHT-HAVE-BEEN, CRABLIKE and MINSK which I didn’t know was a capital.

    I didn’t mind ROCK BAND but thought GALWAY was a bit feeble with ‘away’ in the clue. Another vote for TOPS here.

  11. …when I put my foot down. This happened to me in my 1962 Midget. Only a magic moment in retrospect. Hit on Como after trying Mason, my favourite TV programme in adolescence, Wanted to do this in a hurry as we’re out today and did manage 32 minutes for what seemed a hard puzzle, having both BOSS and TOPS but sadly plumping for the latter. UPTURN not fully parsed. So a MIGHT-HAVE-BEEN, which is what we all are, I guess. COD HOOVER DAM , MUSHROOM CLOUD and VIET CONG along with CHROMOSOME for taking me through my youth with a soundtrack migrating from Perry Como to a ROCK BAND. LOI UNBIDDEN. Thank you V and setter.
      1. Embellished a bit for dramatic effect, Pootle, but as I plonked my heel down I felt it go through the rusty bottom of the car and then I could see the tarmac underneath. The car had only done 125,000 miles too, about half under my ownership. I felt short-changed.
  12. I came here in cheerful mood thinking I’d done quite well with a rather tricky crossword, only to find that some eejit thinks the correct answer to 21dn is not TOPS. That is so *obviously* a better answer than BOSS, that I might have to go and have a lie down now to recover.
  13. Another DNF but with 21dn BOSS correct! Lord knows why I did not see TOPS! An equally good answer.

    My failure was at 8dn YANG (a sheep hereabouts)

    FOI 16ac HOOVER DAM.

    COD 23ac VIET-CONG best-ever disguised anagram! Boss!

    WOD WOUNDED KNEE as per NFL.

    Time irrelevant.

    This puzzle should have been used for the final – but probably wasn’t, in order to avoid a punch-up!

  15. Can someone enlighten me as to how ‘tanks’ is an anagram indicator? I really have no idea!
    1. If something tanks it fails, goes wrong. 40 min. here but with tops, which I consider superior to boss as ‘excellent’ for the latter feels dodgy. Rock band’s clue should be preserved as a grotesque sport in the tale of clue evolution. A lot of good stuff but not the round shilling.
  16. Okay it’s probably a bit of a stretch… but to “tank” can mean to “fail miserably”, “trounce”, or “get drunk”, so it probably does work somehow!
  17. Forgot to say that Wounded Knee reminded me of a wonderful poem by Stephen Vincent Benet, ‘I have Fallen in Love with American Names’ (see its last line). Benet also wrote some quite remarkable and little-known short stories.
      1. I had never heard of this Benet fellow five minutes ago but now, without stirring from my seat I have read about him on Wikipedia and for 83p put a substantial chunk of his work on my Kindle. Thank you!
  18. 33 min, with TOPS. Was hoping someone would have a better explanation of 9ac. ODD was LOI, as didn’t think of ODDS as ‘price’.
    penge_guin – if a scheme tanks, it fails disastrously (don’t know why, though)
  19. Another TOPS here. I submitted my crossword, wondering if GALWAY was correct since I didn’t quite think the wordplay was solid, and I was suspicious since The Times usually wouldn’t have “way” in the answer and the clue, so I was surprised when the little pink squares were not in the top right but the bottom left. But there was lots of stuff to like here. My second to last one in was YANG which should have been a starter clue.
  20. With GALWAY unparsed, the massacre unknown, and ROCK BAND with a raised eyebrow. Very rarely – if at all – in this day and age would you call the two synonymous. But then I’m a Planet Rock listener so could be a bit biased.

    Oh, and add in the inevitable TOPS (I’m worth v here, I think they would have had to allow it under challenge if it had come up on Saturday) and my Friday misery was complete – even the “Quick” cryptic took nearly 10 minutes today.

    Ho hum, maybe next week will bring revived fortune.

  21. 29 mins with TOPS so I’m taking it – mind you I didn’t understand UPTURN, and was thinking about OPPUGN as I couldn’t remember what it meant. This was definitely a MIGHT-HAVE-BEEN.
  22. Not just tricky, but in places too much of a stretch between definition and answer for me. How does LIBERTY mean no ties? surely that would be AT LIBERTY. Why is BOSS the answer and not TOPS reversing spot? Liked some clues, (VIET CONG, HOOVER DAM, OCTO…) disliked a good few others. Glad this was V’s turn not mine. Was this a setter we don’t often see in action? Roll on tomorrow.
    1. LIBERTY is (the state of) having no ties; having no ties is liberty. It works for me, just about…
  23. Not exactly a fast time, but as has been proved today, the race is not always to the swift…to the lucky, perhaps. I toyed at first with TOPS, but fortunately for me, I couldn’t quite see a convincing meaning which could cover “point” as well, however many three-point turns I did in the thesaurus. At this point, the voice of Liam Gallagher appeared to me and said “That’s boss, innit”, and even though it didn’t seem a very Times-ish word to use, it turned out to be the right one.
  24. The mathematician in me says the clue’s POINT is infinitesimally small – a SPOT, if you will. While in my mind (and in the dictionaries!) the BOSS covers quite a large area – not a point at all.
    Otherwise quite liked this, even the clunky Brighton Rock met first in the Greene title but having no idea what it was.
  25. 58:24. Struggled on and on, determined to finish without aids only to fail at the same 21d hurdle as everyone else. Yes I put in TOPS too. I eventually realised that just because an answer seemed like a bit of a stretch, that didn’t mean it was wrong. So I put them in anyway… ROCK BAND, UPTURN, LIBERTY, ODD, and VIET CONG – I didn’t spot the tanking anagrind, but I think we’ve had it before. Thanks for the parsing V and our setter for the tough challenge.
  26. I’ve not had a good week so felt very chuffed to complete this in about 45 mins. Then I came here (frankly more for V’s blog which is like Christmas once a week) only to find BOSS! Anyway I don’t give a fig, I am claiming a completion. I suspect the setter just didn’t spot the potential ambiguity. If I generally have the same issues as others here perhaps I really am improving slowly. Loved Viet Cong as my COD. Thanks All
  27. A 21′ Friday, hence smiles, had TOPS of course. Am in my 60s and regard that as middle aged. Nowadays you have to be an 11d to be old. Thanks verlaine and setter. I hope the editors note our comments. Oh, and Chrismas choral rehearsals start today…
    1. I’m slugging it out with the editor via private message as we speak and I think gaining the upper hand…
  28. I am alone in figuring that ‘Brighton sticks’ equals rock, and that band is the homophone for out?
    1. Not alone at all; what did you think my suggesting parsing was implying? Sorry for any ambiguity!
  29. Thank you, V, for getting on the case about this. No offence to the setter, but this is clearly a case where there are two equally good answers, and it would be nice for all of us to receive that confirmation.

    Edited at 2017-11-10 04:01 pm (UTC)

    1. His last pronouncement on the subject to me has been: “I certainly wouldn’t mark it wrong if it was possible to do so or necessary”, which falls short of refunding our subscriptions in full and giving us complimentary Times fountain pens for our inconvenience, but isn’t the worst either.
  30. Fortunately, I made one mistake at 19ac, having decided that Minuk was the capital of that little country stuck in between Tajikistan and Nepal.

    This error meant that I didn’t have to feel too hard done by in having “tops” counted as wrong.

    Verlaine – may I ask what the gentleman depicted in your avatar is doing? What with the smallness of the picture, and my tired eyes, it looks like someone doing something unspeakable to a stuffed panda, but I presume this is not the case.

  31. I’ll get shot down in flames but boss fits just as well as raised point. To me a boss is a raised point.
    1. I don’t think anyone is saying that BOSS isn’t a reasonable answer, just that TOPS is also a reasonable answer, and that crosswords shouldn’t normally contain such ambivalences… especially when a majority of experienced solvers do seem to have reached TOPS rather than BOSS!
  32. 35 minutes with BOSS. Never even thought of TOPS otherwise I might have joined the ‘disgusted of Tunbridge Wells’ brigade.
  33. Well, I think that BOSS isn’t as close to excellent as TOPS, it’s out of date slang over here, and the raised point bit is close enough to either. So TOPS it is, or should have been. So I’m scoring mine all correct, though I didn’t parse GALWAY fully. Regards to all, including the setter and editor, since we are a forgiving bunch. Usually.
    1. All the bloggers end up thanking both the setter and the parser of the answers, and whatever the shortcomings of the crossword, invariably they finish with fulsome praise. I thought that today’s crossword was very bad for every reasonable reason, rotten surfaces, corny clues and just well below the usual excellent par. The art of the crossword is when the penny drops. In at least six clues that I got correct I wondered whether there was a much better solution which had escped me – unfortunately there wasn’t.
  34. Was out for an early Christmas lunch today; the restaurant had all the decorations up despite it being 10 November.
    Anyway I had a moment to look at this. I don’t normally do Fridays as too hard. I started with Galway,struggled a bit; thought Harley was the large bike for 1a; and had Schoolmaster pencilled in at 11d only because the letters fitted at the time.
    After some moments of inspiration I corrected those and finished with 11d and finally 15a. A rare completion!
    And I had TOPS of course – I agree superior to Boss.
    COD to 23a. David
  35. Extra galling to get down to the last two in my hour this morning, then spend another ten finishing off my last couple just now: OUTBOX and, of course, TOPS.
  36. 22 mins on the commute this morning followed by 18 mins at lunchtime to complete all correct apart from putting “tops” instead of “boss”. But as so many others went with “tops” I think it must be one of those rare instances where there really are two equally justifiable solutions. If you had asked me just after solving, if I thought any of my answers were a bit dodgy or a stretch it would not have been 21dn. I had that feeling of certainty you get, even if you don’t know the word, from what seemed cast iron word play. It didn’t even occur to me to consider a possible alternative once I had seen the reversed “spot”. FOI 7dn. LOI 18dn. I liked the definition at 26ac but COD to 23ac, “coveting tanks” very good.
  37. I finished, but only today on the subway on my way to a doctor appointment, after putting it aside last night. I just now looked up “stick/Brighton/rock” to discover the existence of the relevant confectionary. Thanks to V for explaining “MUSH” (it really seemed something was missing there)! Could not fathom why UPTURN, and I just didn’t get around to parsing CHROMOSOME.

    Edited at 2017-11-10 10:54 pm (UTC)

  38. Tackled this after a long tiring drive back to Middlesbrough from Abergavenny and was really ticked off to find I had one wrong after battling away for 52:24. Of course it was TOPS! Was also not too impressed with UPTURN and ROCK BAND. Happy to be in exalted company on 21d though. Didn’t parse CHROMOSOME, just biffed it from crossers. Liked VIET CONG and WOUNDED KNEE. A good puzzle spoiled by the ambiguity. Thanks setter and Verlaine.
  39. Well, I vote with what seems to be the majority, for TOPS. There is no way for the solver to see that that’s wrong (it fits the definition and the wordplay perfectly), so it can’t be wrong. What is wrong is the fact that the setter didn’t catch the ambiguity (but one might forgive him, since that hardly ever happens). With that said, I did take about an hour, with everything else correct (too).
  40. Long live Verlaine – maybe not as good as Magoo against the clock but the amount I have learnt from you, with your sharing nature, v Magoo who shares very little, I can now do 15 x 15 with two unfinished and it’s all thanks to your help.
    1. Since I’ve said something very special about you, would you parse boss. Emboss seems distantly right. Am I missing something?
      1. Per Chambers: –

        Boss (adjective) – Excellent

        Boss (noun) – A knob or stud (i.e. a point that is raised)

        I assume you’ve never come across the excellent “Solving the Times crossword” YouTube blogs regularly hosted by Magoo?

        Stuart

  41. I think that this puzzle was set by the referee from the Northern Ireland/Switzerland game.
  42. I see there is still no comment from the powers-that-be over the boss/ tops ambiguity. And there was no quarter given after the recent sitcom/runic howler – which again awarded “correct” solvers an “error”. Given that we pay for this service, a little more customer/crossword care would be appreciated.

    Midas

  43. A day late and a dollar short but it seems I chose the right one to submit off the board. I spent the day on hospital time sitting about with the usual skimpy gown open down the back which gets a bit drafty – but at least I had the puzzle to pass the time (or so I thought). I wouldn’t have put it quite like anon (supra) but it does seem as if Homer nodded on this one. Like all the best people I had “tops” and UPTURN gave me a few fits although it couldn’t have been anything else.

    I didn’t recognise Lee Marvin from the userpic but then I always confuse him with James Coburn anyway,

    1. Sums up my crosswording life really – Lee Marvin is so nearly Verlaine plus a minute. Or is that a thousand?
  44. TOPS/BOSS – There are more people looking at the championship puzzles than others – I was one of four people who were sent the puzzles to solve and comment on (three in some cases as some of the four had written one of them). In such circumstances it seems unlikely that the pair of answers would not be spotted. When you just have the xwd ed as a single test solver (which I believe is the norm for cryptics at both papers), it’s more likely that clues like this will slip through the net.

    Rejecting “boss” as something too big for a “point” seems like an example of insisting that one meaning of “point” (the maths one) is the only one that matters. One Collins dictionary gives this usage example, in which a point must logically have enough room for two people: “As a mark of respect the emperor met him at a point several weeks’ march from the capital.”

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