Times 25066 – Let’s have some oysters!

53 comments on “Times 25066 – Let’s have some oysters!”

1. With all the problems in the bottom left: 17ac, 18dn, 24ac, 26ac. Last in: SCOUR; tossing up between this and SCRUB, until the penny (or rather the cent) dropped. 24ac INTACT was a fiendish deletion clue which I only got by thinking in the kind of literary Yorkshire written by authors who have never actually heard the dialect. Probably the clue of the day for me.

   I too wanted BEAM at 23ac.

   Edited at 2012-01-23 03:12 am (UTC)

2. I suppose I deserved it, having cheated to finish, but didn’t think twice about the English natural philosopher, Robert Hooke, elastic man. If I hook a shark (or a woman) I am certainly entering an engagement. Stewards enquiry, anyone?
   1. I actually had ‘Hooke’ for a while, but he is simply not a ‘philosopher’ in the modern sense. A ‘natural philosopher’ is a 17th-century term for what today would be called a scientist.

      You can use obsolete meanings of words in the wordplay or answers, but not in the clues.

      1. The terms “philosophy” and “philosopher” were quite common up to the end of the 19th and into the early 20th century to denote almost any “respectable” branch of intellectual enquiry and its practitioners. Darwin routinely refers to his “philosophy” to mean the whole of his efforts at enquiry; and to himself as a “philosopher” (sans “natural” in places). “Science” and “scientist”, by contrast, were terms of opprobrium reserved for unthinking mechanicals.

         Our problem is whether to avoid (very recently) outdated terms or to avoid anachronism. I’d always go for the latter. In which case Hooke was a philosopher. Others may have other tastes.

         Edited at 2012-01-23 06:14 am (UTC)

      2. Locke is clearly a better fit, but the trouble with Hooke is that once you have chosen him, you have no reason to go back and reconsider. With others like Beam or Scrub, the checkers or lingering doubts will draw you back to think again.

         John.

3. Like you,Vinyl, I put BEAM but unlike you I left it there. I also put BEGATION, which ought to be a (biblical) word but isn’t. Not on the ball at all here.
4. 45 minutes before bedtime but I wasn’t happy about SCRUB at 17ac so I revisited it this morning and found the correct answer.

   LOCKE and READE seem to come up a lot but this is surely the first time we’ve had both in the same puzzle?

   Wasted time thinking 1dn was JOB LADDER which fits the clue rather well I thought.

   I really liked 2dn 3dn and 9ac.

5. 70 minutes with the unknown cafe and HELM last in. INTACT from the definition. I seem to have an aversion to AVERSION THERAPY.
6. Just over 20 minutes for most of this, then another fifteen trying to think of an alternative to CABBAGES before giving up, thinking “perhaps it’s just a really awful clue”. Turned out it was.
   I had DOES for 10 across for a long time. It nearly works.
   1. DOES is brilliant – a fine example of the can of worms opened when a setter pushes cuteness a bit too far.
      1. In the setter’s defence it doesn’t quite work: it would have to be “successors”.
         1. I had in mind S as abbreviation for successor (Chambers doesn’t agree) and some flagrant playing around with cryptic grammar. Or simply that John’s successor (Doe) might conceivably be Doe’s. Wouldn’t put either past this setter, which is not a criticism.
            1. If Doe is Doe’s successor I suppose you get dead as a Doe Doe. There’s a clue in there somewhere.
               1. Doe – oh dear – a female deer. This could run and run
      2. I don’t see “DOES” somehow. Obviously the definition fits, but hardly the rest of ti. One of those might certainly think of but then reject with a smile.
         I thought the “CABBAGES” clue was excellent. All in all classic Times Crossword fare.
7. 
   Yippee! All present and correct today, with only one where I was not sure if the answer was correct (could so very easily have been another ‘all bar one…’). That one was FIAT, where although the wordplay fitted, I’d not heard of the word.

   Found this on the easy side (probably because there was only that one unknown), and thought there were some very good clues. I particularly liked the ‘on trial’ bit of 7dn, and the ‘arithmetic, for example’ = R of 9ac.

8. I don’t understand the cabbages clue.

   Also, how do you guys solve clues that involve wordplay as unspecific as ‘boy and girl’? There are literally thousands of boy and girl names.

   1. ‘The time has come,’ the Walrus said,
      ‘To talk of many things:
      Of shoes—and ships—and sealing wax—
      Of cabbages—and kings—
      And why the sea is boiling hot—
      And whether pigs have wings.’
      Through the Looking-Glass (1872) ch. 4
      1. Thanks. I’m sure I’ve read that before but forgot about the cabbages.

         Edited at 2012-01-23 09:59 am (UTC)

         1. It’s also a book by O Henry and an album by Chad and Jeremy, so it’s percolated through the culture.
   2. Here’s the literary allusion – from Alice Through the Looking Glass. On boys and girls, it’s often best to concentrate on what appears to be the definition bit of the clue – in this case “had an affair” and see if any candidate solutions have names in them. It definitely helped in this case to have one or two crossing letters. But you can’t do it be running through a list of names!
      1. Thanks. Had an affair isn’t a familiar definition for carried on for me

         Edited at 2012-01-23 10:11 am (UTC)

   3. There are, but very few of them lead to a two-word phrase meaning “had an affair”. You know from (7,2) that the second word might be “on” so you’ve got *ON. You might guess that the first word ends in -ED, so there’s DON and Bob’s your uncle, Carrie’s your aunt 🙂
9. I thought (and still think) that I did quite well at 25 minutes for this traditional Monday toughie. Lots of clues you’d have trouble explaining to a beginner without putting them off cryptics for life – BEDROCK, for example, where you put the R(ingleader) in DOCK to put him on trial, or INTACT.
   CABBAGES is one of those cutesy definition clues that I usually dislike, but for me this was cute enough to get by.
   For no reason associated with the wordplay, I wanted 1ac to be WINSOMENESS, even though it didn’t fit, but it scuppered me for the NW corner until I had most of the rest in. HELM was going to be TEAK, again for no wordplay related reason – this was the sort of puzzle where the wordplay sometimes had to attend on the inspired guess, and the definition often made the inspired guess wrong.
   A proper challenge, then, with lots of candidates for top clue. My narrow favourite UTTERMOST.
10. Oh, and they were on a beach at the time!
    1. Er, see the blog title….
       1. Not sure what sin I’ve committed, but apologies nevertheless.
          1. I was merely recalling the whole scene as pictured by Tenniel – the beach, the walrus and the carpenter, the oysters eagerly listening to the discussion and gradually being eaten.
             1. Thanks for this. I understood your reference but I was responding to sircharrington’s query about the ‘cabbages clue’ and at the time I posted it nobody had mentioned Alice or Lewis Carroll (although z8 was only a second or two down the line). After I put up the quotation I realised I hadn’t explained ‘discussion on beach’ so I tagged the explanation on. I didn’t see it as duplicating anything you had already said but I apologise again if it seemed that way to you.

                Edited at 2012-01-23 01:16 pm (UTC)

11. 43.38 here with 16 spent in the NE where I struggled with1 ac until suddenly it fell and the rest rattled in. My COD to FLYINGBOAT for the smooth surface and double use of ‘at sea’. I was pleased to finish this one after a run of struggles. Maybe morning solving is the way forward rather than last thing before sleep.
12. Thoroughly enjoyable sub-30 minute solve: lots of good but not-too-taxing clues. Never gave a second thought to SCRUB (‘sb’ must be a chemical symbol – it is – and ‘cru’ must be an old small coin – it isn’t). So thanks, vinyl, for putting me right! Yes, it was a difficult easy one.

    I was also slightly slowed by READABLE. I seem to remember reading some comments here (not so long ago) that, in Times crosswords, ‘learner’ was not an acceptable indicator of ‘L’ and so initially tried to find an alternative. Is my memory playing tricks on me? If I knew how to search blogs, I would have checked myself.

    Edited at 2012-01-23 10:03 am (UTC)

    1. I’m not sure about this but I think “student” or similar for L is out, but “learner” is fine. Abbreviations OK, abbreviations once removed not OK.
    2. There’s discussion on the subject here.
       1. Many thanks for the link. At least I was right in remembering the discussion wasn’t so long ago even though I had mangled the student/learner distinction. Memo to self: pay more attention.
13. About 20 mins for me, which is as fast I ever do these puzzles, so by my standards this was a Jimboesque stroll in the park. But from what Vinyl and others have said above, this may have been one of those “wavelength” puzzles which happened to suit me. In general, I thought it very enjoyable, with some particularly good surface readings – e.g. the clue to UTTERMOST.
14. Lock(e) is a more precise answer to the clue, although Hook(e) does fit albeit loosely. Agree with blogger this was a devilishly deceptive puzzle and a relief to finish. Is R for arithmetic arcane or does everybody happily accept it as an abbreviation?

    Enigma

    1. I don’t think the three R’s are arcane yet, just an old, and very English joke to confuse foreigners.
15. Well, this was a bit chewy for a Monday after golf. Hard going on the golf course with muddy ground and a stiffidsh wind at times – so it was for the puzzle. 25 minutes and much head scratching over one or two of them (CABBAGES for example – awful clue). Had to guess ESTAMINET because didn’t recall the word. Off for 40 winks now.
16. 15 recalls T.S.Eliot’s startling lines, ‘My house is a decayed house, / And the Jew squats on the window-sill, the owner, / Spawned in some estaminet of Antwerp, / Blistered in Brussels, patched and peeled in London.’ It’s the only time I’ve met the word. This was an entertaining breeze, a few sharpish slaps of wind, I came in at 25 minutes or thereabouts. ‘Does’ for a time held me up too, as did SW. As for Locke and Hooke, we’re in the present I’d have thought, and a philosopher isn’t the sort to have a law. (Unless the well-known savants Murphy and Sod.)
    1. ESTAMINET is a great favourite of Times crossword setters. Its most recent appearance was in Jumbo 947 (15 October 2011), and it probably comes up on average about once a year.
    2. Yeah, that was the quote that crossed my mind. Surely the word must have been used elsewhere, though.
17. Anyone having trouble getting to the Crosswrod site today?
    1. They closed it earlier for maintenance but I think it is back up now.

       Edited at 2012-01-23 06:39 pm (UTC)

    2. If you usually access via a short-cut you may need to delete it and create a new one.
18. I didn’t time this effort, since I was watching US football playoff games while solving. But I thought it clever and misleading. It took me far too long to realize why CUBA was the answer to 6A, even though it clearly was correct. Very cute. TOASTER also took a while. LOI was CABBAGES, as the only thing that fit the checking letters, since my knowledge of Carroll is, well, nonexistent. Regards to all.
    1. didn’t record a time, but I think I had to look at it twice last night to get UTTERMOST and NEGATION. Tricky puzzle.
19. 11:14 for me. This was a classic Times puzzle – a delight from start to finish, with no tediously convoluted clues. In fact pretty much perfection. My compliments to the setter.
20. As an afterthought, I’m going to make 3dn (CABBAGES) my COD, partly because of the pleasure it gave me when light eventually dawned, and partly to go some way to counterbalancing those who thought it was awful. So there!

    1. Well, you were the TLS blogger, before we gave up on it.
    2. I’m with you on that one, Tony!
    3. How can you possibly say ‘eventually’? The whole puzzle took you barely more than 10 minutes!
       Congratulations to all those who solved this the same day; I had to give up around midnight with the NE mostly a wasteland (NB 1d was not TEA DANCES)
       Never heard of Reade but will always be on the lookout in future

       JB

       1. NB2 without this blog, I would have had to give up with only 2 or 3 solved but now I’m a regular finisher (after an hour so). So thank you all and please keep it up
          Fantastic puzzle – on trial = in DOCK was just so clever (it might be standard, but I’m new)

            JB

          1. It’s good to hear that you’re progressing well with the puzzle, JB. I can remember the days, nearly 50 years ago now, when I was in much the same situation – though of course without the benefit of this blog!

             As for my “eventually”, there was a time 30 years ago when I would have expected to finish a puzzle like this in under 8 minutes (you can improve quite a lot in 20 years :-), so taking over 11 minutes feels a bit disappointing. I can’t remember how long it took me to solve 3dn, but I remember I had all the checked letters in place – however, at least I recognised the quotation as soon as I saw that CABBAGES would fit.

             In fact the clue I made heaviest weather of was 1dn, which I should have got immediately but was actually my LOI.

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