Times 25021 – ummm, OK?

Solving time : well after 25 minutes and 34 seconds, I hit submit on the Crossword Club, which is telling me I’ve got two wrong. I’ve scoured it and can’t see right now where I’ve gone wrong, though there are a couple I am unsure of (note, I found it, I had THEIF and EVENENG so it was a typo).

I don’t think I’ve ever had an experience like this… I flat out cannot parse the wordplay for about a half a dozen of these clues. From definitions they look like they could only be one thing, but how to get there from subsidiary indications has got me stumped.

I have to go to a show now, so I won’t be able to check in for a while – if you’re reading this you may want to check comments first, I’m sure these will be explained in time.

Away we go…

Across
1 JURY RIG: since the reverse would be RIG JURY
5 DEBITED: BIT(part) in the centre of DEED
9 REFECTORY: FE(d) in RECTORY
10 BLISS: ref Arthur Bliss
11 ALIEN: A LIEN
12 NUMBER TEN: since there are ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill, covet, steal, worship false idols, use indirect anagrams, use living people in crosswords (other than the queen), double unch, clue I as A, clue A as I, use two-letter words
14 UNDERSTATEMENT: hidden (rather well I thought)
17 UNEARNED INCOME: I guess you are always earning it if you are doing labour
21 BREAK A LEG?: it fits the definition, but I don’t see the rest. Edit: as noted in comments – a (bone) setter is an old term for a doctor
23 PARMA: I didn’t know PARMA HAM and PARMESAN both referred to this region of Italy. R in PA and MA
24 THIEF: I don’t get the part about the cherry-stone at allEdit: see comments for explanation of the “tinker, tailor” game to count cherry stones, which ends in “thief”
25 PRECISIAN: IS in (A,PRINCE). New word for me, but obtainable from wordplay
26 Deliberately omitted, as it’s not my team by a long stretch
27 SYNONYM: since CHILDREN and ISSUE are example of SYNONYMS
 
Down
1 JORDAN: DR reversed in JOAN. Umm, not sure the connection between Joan and old partner?Edit: “Darby and Joan” is a term for an old married couple
2 deliberately omitted
3 RACONTEUR: (TO,RACE,RUN)*
4 GROUNDS,WE’LL
5 DRY: double definition
6 BIBLE: the ends of IDIOT and SAVANT are OT and NT
7 THISTLE?: put this in from definition (plant), is down referring to THIS? Help!Comb through the comments – thistledown protects the plant
8 DISUNITY: SUN,IT in DIY(Do It Yourself)
13 MEANINGLESS: (SINGLE)* in MEANS
15 EXCEPTION: rather nice double definition – you may take EXCEPTION to a decision, and there are EXCEPTIONS to rules
16 SUNBATHE: (HEATS,BUN)*
18 EVEN,IN,G: the clue tells us that EVEN and IN come before the G
19 MARXIAN: X(vote) in maid MARIAN
20 MAGNUM: again from definition, no idea about the rest
22 KAFKA: F in KA, which I guess has something to do with honours?Edit I should probably have known this – honors in cards – King and Ace
25 PAD: A(lexandre) D(umas) under P

70 comments on “Times 25021 – ummm, OK?”

  1. George I share much of your puzzlement – the NE corner took me ages. I wonder if 7dn is a cryptic reference to thistledown being the seeds ( and thus the start of the thistle)? I think “Central” in 5ac is misleadingly redundant, and 6dn is a poor clue.

    21ac presumably refers to a broken leg being work for a (bone)setter – do they still exist?

    1dn refers to Darby (or is it Derby?)and Joan.

    The reference in 24ac is to the childrens’ game of counting fruit stones “Tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor, rich man, poor man, beggarman, thief”. Think of the John le Carre novel.

  2. 21ac – if you break a leg, the bone setter has a job on his or her hands
    7dn – thistledown is the fluff attached to the seeds, so if you delete the ‘down’, you get THISTLE, and if the thistledown is blown away you get a new thistle started. Nice clue
    20dn – the putative accusative case of King Magnus – not such a ggod clue

    No idea re the thief, unless it’s something to do with Chekhov.

  3. One more left, I see, which our trusty friend Google resolved: the Knight of St Andrew (or KA) is apparently Barbados’s highest honour. Strange that I should be reading The Castle at the moment.

    I rather liked the clue for 26ac – so apt in describing England’s efforts last year in the Republic. Put in ‘sanctum’ for SYNONYM in desperation after an hour and ten minutes! 5ac is rather clever – I think ‘central part in exploit’ as shorthand for ‘part goes into a central position in exploit’ is quite acceptable.

  4. I started off so well, but in the end I took 49:22 with the last 20 minutes or so worrying that it would be blasphemy to write in BIBLE if it wasn’t right. I don’t think much of that clue.

    I interpreted 7dn as a cryptic definition, a thistle starts out as blown down.

    I think that “top honours” refers to the king and ace (of trumps) in certain card games (after a quick search it seems bridge and whist).

  5. Similar experience to others. 25 minutes for all but six in the NE corner then another 25 for them.

    Didn’t understand:

    5ac. ‘Central part’. If ‘central’ indicates enclosure then ‘in’ is redundant. OTOH ‘bit’ for ‘central part’ doesn’t make sense.

    6dn. Completely missed the ‘OT’ ‘NT’ references. Can’t decide whether this clue is brilliant or awful.

    7dn.I saw the plant and the association with ‘down’ and I’ve read the comments but I’m still not entirely sure how this is supposed to work so I reckon it’s scrappy clue.

    Had to go to SOED to confirm JURY-RIG. The usual sources only have ‘jury-rigged’.

    Does one decline Scandinavian kings?

    1. PS: I don’t think anyone has yet mentioned that BREAK A LEG is an expression used in theatre to wish actors / performers good luck just before they go on.
    2. I interpreted “central part” as a part from central casting, i.e. a bit part. I’m not really sure this works, I’m not convinced it’s right, and I don’t particularly like it if it is, but it’s what I thought.
      1. Well it would fit in with the setter expecting us to know ‘break a leg’ as theatrical jargon so I wouldn’t rule it out.
  6. Raced through left-hand side and most of right…and a dnf, failing to find debited and bible and giving up too soon. I like the bible clue, with ‘writ’ a neat extra tucked away. Magnus declines as a Latin name I should think…but as a Scandinavian king? It feel like a confusion of context. Pretty annoyed with my blind spot today – on for a fast time otherwise.
  7. Completed this in under 40 minutes and, as it turns out, successfully. But like George, and others, I was struggling to crack much of the wordplay. Particular thanks to George for explaining BIBLE (I was hopelessly adrift on this) and to essex_man for THIEF (another which had left me totally befuddled).

    COD to NUMBER TEN (fairly easy, but it made me smile and I did understand it). Overall I’m somewhat ambivalent about this one: there were too many unresolved elements for me to be truly satisfied.

  8. 28 minutes, mostly with those brilliant/terrible clues in the NE.
    I (sort of) concluded that BIT is the central part of, for example, a brace and bit: it goes in the middle of the chuck, after all.
    I had trouble with means=method in 13d, but my Chambers Thesaurus gives it as the first entry on means, so that’s OK then!
    PRECISIAN was new to me (are we allowed long forgotten religious insults?), gettable from cryptic, but tricky if you’re playing around with HOMONYM at 27. Yes I know…
    Our team? Who we?
    CoD to No. 10 – might have been even better if it hadn’t been squatting in the Prime Minister’s Press Office two doors down.
  9. 29 minutes.
    Like others, much of this went in from definitions and I couldn’t parse them even after solving. The NE corner took forever.
    Thanks to George for explaining BIBLE and essex_man and others for Joan, the fruit stones and MAGNUM.
    The difficult clues here are partly brilliant, partly dreadful. For me BIBLE is the former, MAGNUM the latter: a matter of taste. I still don’t understand THISTLE in spite of all the explanations.
    Overall though I enjoyed the challenge. There’s a slightly arcane whiff to it but there’s nothing wrong with that from time to time.
  10. Like everyone else it seems this puzzle had me all ends up for a while.. well done setter, I say, it is good for us to struggle once in a while.
    All the clues seem to have been parsed now, and only 7dn and 20dn appear in any way questionable to me.
    Re 20dn, Magnum is indeed the accusative of the latin word Magnus = great, and since King Magnus surely obtained his name from the same source, it does not seem such a stretch to link the two. Proper names are declined in Latin aren’t they? Et tu, Brute?
    Re 7dn, clearly it relates to thistledown but I don’t see why the clue as worded is different to “Plant that blows down for a start.” Why the just? Still, I won’t say its a bad clue because its more likely I am just missing something here..
    1. According to my Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names, St Olaf, the father of the first Magnus, King Magnus 1 of Norway and Denmark, was an admirer of Charlemagne (Carolus Magnus), and the son was baptised by servants who thought Magnus was a proper name. For what it’s worth.

      The only Magnus I can bring to mind is Magnus Pym in “A Perfect Spy” (le Carre, again).

        1. I’m aware of Scandinavian kings generically but not individually. Never heard of the other two gentlemen.
  11. This is poor fare, far too much convoluted piffle to even be entertaining. I feel for you George, it must have been a nightmare to blog under pressure.

    The shortcomings have all been aired and one or two of them in a single puzzle would be livable with – but not the whole lot in one go. Our team and the cherry stone are particularly ludicrous.

  12. 21:49 and all correct, so at least I didn’t waste too much of my morning before submitting with the obvious suspects unparsed but assumed to be right.

    Afraid that even after seeing explanations here, I found this unsatisfactory rather than whimsical, especially 20 down. To quote Stephen Fry, “If that’s not absolute balls, then kindly fax me an explanation of what is”.

  13. A lot of loose clueing here as well as obscurities such as KA (honours). I was getting along fairly quickly until I was left with NE corner, where all I had was a very tentative THISTLE (suggested by thistledown), but why “just”, why past tense? Poor clue. In the end I consulted a list of composers and saw BLISS. BIBLE was last in, but two letters in a five-letter word are hardly a conclusion. 45 minutes with help for 10ac.
    As has been observed above, no need for “Central” in 5. I read it as BIT placed centrally in DEED.

    I agree with dorsetjimbo’s comments.

  14. Another offering from our evangelical Christian setter, I assume, and another curate’s egg. I quite enjoyed the good bits, though, and it was certainly a challenge. Needed help to get BLISS and BIBLE, so technically a dnf for me.
    1. Evangelical Christian? Because the word Bible and the decalogue is in there? What am I missing?
      1. I had three on my list with REFECTORY and its clue, although I grant you that monks aren’t exclusively Christian. Two might be a coincidence, but three is starting to look like a state of mind.

        Funny how religion seems to provoke more controversy that anything else on the blog, far more than the other traditional no-go areas of sex or politics. Although with sex we seem to be stuck in a Fifties timewarp – it’s always either SA or IT.

  15. I dislike bunging in answers from definition alone so spent ages trying to work out the cryptics. It took me 51 minutes to complete but I could console myself with the thought that I had finally understood all the clueing. MAGNUM my last in. I take mild offence at ENGLAND being defined as “our team”. Where I come from England are “them”. In fact I’ve seen the Wales/England rugby advertised outside a pub as “Them v Us”. The sports section of the Times, supposedly a “national” paper, is outrageously Anglocentric. It now seems to have infected the crossword as well.
  16. Actually I didn’t mind this one once I got it. But Scandinavian kings’ names send the brain off into 1066 and All That territory (Hardlicanute and Harald Hairbrush)so King Magnus didn’t immediately come to mind. No big solving problems (30 minutes) but parsing trouble all over the shop including BIBLE. Thanks all.
  17. Didn’t find this at all bad – the only thing that outrages me is that ‘break a leg’ is not a statement: you could call it a direction though, even a stage-direction.
  18. The Church Times crossword editor (a Times setter) would like to tell you that this is not his puzzle. He would regard himself as having some nostalgically evangelical as well as liberal/radical leanings, but would also comment that he is not aware of any overtly evangelical Christian on the setting panel! He does however regret a whiff of anti-religion that comes through this blog from time to time, regardless of a clue’s merits or demerits. He will also continue to regard some Bible knowledge as legitimaye ‘GK’.
    1. I’m with you. As, I understand, is Richard Dawkins (the bible – “a great cultural resource” and “part of our heritage”).

      I do like a good C of E service once in a while myself, preferably one with a slightly doddery and eccentric country vicar of the kind I remember from childhood, though they’re becoming harder to find . Obviously, that’s not necessarily a religious experience but it does make me feel that all’s right with the world, especially if there’s a glass of sherry afterwards (or before, in the case of my Aunt Clarice).

      Having said that I wouldn’t have got today’s BIBLE clue in a month of Sundays without the ‘b’ of BLISS finally falling into place after several runs through the alphabet. Too subtle for me.

      24:24 here, with probably half of that on those last two clues. Had no explanation for the THIEF clue, but I should have known it – it’s spelt out in Milne’s “Now we are Six’ which I certainly read in childhood. I rather liked MAGNUM. Takes all sorts.

    2. Thanks for your contribution. I can’t say that I found this puzzle to have a particularly religious leaning.

      I do object (and there is one setter in particular) when a puzzle contains a plethora of always Christian based clues that require an arcane knowledge of your tribe’s beliefs and practices.

      This puzzle is slowly moving away from its bishops, civil servants and retired generals image and I want to see that continue. The day I see Alhazen as an answer I’ll know things are really happening.

  19. …as I had the same trouble as many others in the NE. Not helped at all by putting in DELETED, so I was never going to get BIBLE. Had not heard of Mr BLISS either, so that was another blank. Also held up by having UNEARNED WEALTH for a fair time, before seeing some of the downs which sorted that particular problem out.

    After a run of easyish puzzles, I found it quite refreshing to have something a little tougher, and despite not being able to finish it, I enjoyed this one. I quite liked the THIEF clue (one of the ones I did understand!). Not really sure why it’s been given such bad press!

    1. Nor am I. The answer’s obvious from the first four words of the clue and the second way to it makes use of a nice little piece of GK which I’d have thought would be known to everyone over a certain age (and many under it) brought up in the UK. If one doesn’t happen to know it there’s no harm done but at least it added a bit of interest.
  20. 20d reference to Magnus as a Scandanavian King. Also Latin word for great in nominative case ending -us(subject), change to accusative case (object) and you get magn -um.
    1d reference to derby and joan, old partners.
    1. Welcome, Anon. Hope you’ll stay around and join in in future, but might I suggest you read the blog and comments before posting as both these points were covered way back.
    1. I suspect that may be from me originally posting it under Nov 30 and then changing the day a few minutes later. Or some other goof.
  21. About 40 minutes, held up by the wordplay all over the place. I didn’t understand the BIBLE, THIEF and JORDAN clues at all til reading here, although I did cotton on to MAGNUM while solving. Don’t like ‘central part’=’bit’. BLISS is obscure, methinks, but on the good side, I did enjoy RACONTEUR. Regards to all.
  22. 10:23 for me, with the NE corner probably taking nearly half that time.

    I thought this was a delightful puzzle, and have absolutely no objection to anything in any of the clues. My compliments to the setter.

    PS: If there’s an animal disease (of dogs?) called KAFKA-PAD, then I claim a Nina with the symmetrically placed DRY-BIBLE.

  23. “Tinker Tailor” is a counting game, nursery rhyme and fortune telling song traditionally played in England, that can be used to count cherry stones, buttons, daisy petals and other items. Tinker, Tailor,
    Soldier, Sailor, Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man, Thief. I found this on Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker,_Tailor

  24. Do they still say that before a performance? I was given to understand –well, I was told flat out, albeit not by an actor –30 years ago that the phrase had been replaced by a common four-letter word (5 in the north, ending in -e).
  25. This is a latin clue.

    Scandinavian King is Magnus

    Magnum is the latin dative derivative of Magnus(ie ‘in another case’: eg as in ‘magnum opus’)

    Regards,

    Mike c

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