Quick Cryptic No 207 by Izetti

38 comments on “Quick Cryptic No 207 by Izetti”

1. I struggled to get started on this one and with several clues along the way, coming home eventually in 15 minutes. DK FLEABANE (but knew other banes such as hen-, so it wasn’t too much of a stretch) or DAGOBA which I spotted as hidden but it seemed an unlikely word so it didn’t go in until checkers made it a certainty. 8dn confirmed my appreciation of a well-thought-out cryptic clue in the face of quite widespread disapproval around here.

   Edited at 2014-12-23 06:17 am (UTC)

   1. Would that be 18dn? if so are homophones generally disliked?
      1. No, I meant 5dn. Sorry.
         1. I think there may be a general misunderstanding of the problems facing a beginner. For example I struggle with abbreviations that are not in my working vocabulary. ‘Home Counties’ is a good example, having no idea what ‘home’ means in that context. Many single word abbreviations are also unfamiliar. General knowledge is much less of a weakness, and I would guess that applies generally to newbies, many of us being already competent at non-cryptics. Barra and fleabane are certainly in my lexicon, though I thought that Dagoba was spelt another way.

            I have still never fully parsed a complete puzzle. This time matchstick and matchmaker seemed equally unlikely and remain so.

            1. Does that mean Home counties north and Home counties south from Come Dancing (the original series) are also a blank (and I ask as a northerner)? Invariant
               1. I hadn’t heard of Home Counties North but a quick google confirms it’s use in Come Dancing. I can only assume that the programme split the area around London into two for the purposes of reducing the catchment area. So, interesting point but in
                  Crossword Land, in my experience, Home Counties = South East as in ‘of
                  England’ or maybe ‘of GB’.
2. Well, have to say I found this an absolute stinker!

   Some seriously obscure stuff (Fleabane, Dagoba and Barra), some cryptics that did not work for me (Matchstick and Confetti), and some Crosswordland stuff (SE for home counties, Dope for gen) that will, I’m sure, be utterly unintelligible to anyone other than seasoned campaigners.

   I’m not one for dumbing down the QC in general, but I do think it should be possible (as the vast majority of the offerings demonstrate) to have a puzzle that is a decent challenge without resorting to obscurities and tricks that are only known by cryptic veterans.

   Sorry, that is far and away the most negative posting I have ever put here. Maybe I’m just having “a moment”! Anyway, thanks to Izetti for all the other great offerings this year, and to Chris for his elegant blog.

   1. I agree with much of this, Nick, and unfortunately foresee more defections from the ranks of newbies as a result. Tricks of the trade are one thing, after all one has to learn them somewhere sometime if one is to progress, but in my opinion there’s no place for obscure words such as the three you have mentioned, in a Quickie.
      1. Thanks for your reply Jack – glad I’m not completely out on a limb here! I fully agree your observation re. learning the tricks of the trade: I think it was the combination of these tricks and the complexities all in one puzzle that got my goat.
         1. The misspelling of Dagoba when considering the popular useage didn’t help either. I mean, I put it in because what the hell, but still. Why not use a star wars reference and indicate the h is missing as well? It wouldn’t have killed them and it would have made it clearer. If you google a word and it doesn’t come up, then I think that means it’s too obscure. Fleabane I’m fine with because as the blogger notes, most people will know henbane so it’s not a stretch. And if you google fleabane, it’s the first answer. Which helps reassure the novice (well, this one anyway). I suppose I’m reakky annoyed with myself for being so rubbish today.
   2. I agree. First DNF since I was sick at the beginning of the month, apart from that aberration I don’t think I’ve DNF since the summer. This was horrible. I hope all the festive offerings won’t be like this. 🙁 a sad start to the holidays.
   3. Posting very late as I didn’t get round to doing this yesterday, but must agree with your sentiment Nick. Finished OK, but really didn’t enjoy it at all. Knew BARRA because we were there in September, but didn’t enjoy CONFETTI or MATCHSTICK and quite a few others.

      Our thin skinned setter may not agree, but I thought it was a poor offering. Too many clues left a sour taste on solving, rather than a smile.

3. Come off it, miserable people — this is the season of goodwill!
   I don’t have to defend myself, but I will because there are important issues at stake here and I wouldn’t want the negative comments to deter those who are learning and reading this blog. Just to make two points: 1) part of learning is learning the standard vocabulary (SE=Home Counties), so criticism of that is a bit ridiculous, 2) another part of learning is learning to solve from subsidiary indications rather than jumping to definitions, and so DAGOBA becomes pretty accessible — and in any case a) I would expect some solvers to know this word from general knowledge (Times readers are generally well educated and/or well travelled and the word is in all the dictionaries), and b) if you didn’t know the word already, you might be glad to learn it (isn’t solving crosswords an enjoyable way of extending one’s vocabulary?). With that all the bloggers here (whether sensible or daft) a Very Merry Christmas!
   1. There’s not much “season of goodwill” in saying that some bloggers here are daft!
      1. Our setter has a thin skin and a tendency to preach. He should pull his head in and learn from the (rather mild) criticism offered.
         1. Of course, we are all on lifelong learning. The important lesson to be learned from bloggers is that one cannot please all the people all the time. Playing it safe and playing it unsafe are both disliked by some members of the fraternity, but some criticism (as I have indicated) is terribly wide of the mark and ought to be challenged. As for my skin thickness — it is far from thin and (in the case of my face) entirely visible. Anyway that’s enough from me — presents to wrap!
   2. This debate isn’t two sides of a fence – we’re actually all crossword lovers or we wouldn’t be here. I really appreciate the comments from Izetti, Nick and Jack – no one has to comment but they do – and the comments are all shades of grey around the level of challenge. I think everyone agrees that there has to be a challenge – otherwise these crosswords would be boring for all.
      So – with 22ac to both setters and solvers – thankyou for your comments.
   3. Thanks for entering the debate Izetti – always appreciated when a god comes down to walk amongst us mere mortals. That said, I found your observations (in part) supercilious, patronising and downright rude – certainly inconsistent with the prevailing spirit of civilised dialogue and gentle encouragement that are the hallmarks of this forum.

      “Come off it, miserable people…” Are we, your audience (and those who fund your salary), not entitled to submit considered criticism of your work without ridicule back from your most virtuous self? Get a grip, mate.

      “(Times readers are generally well educated and/or well travelled and the word is in all the dictionaries”). Well thanks for pointing that out, Sport. I may be a complete f*ckwit by your standards, but I do have a Cambridge 1st and have had the luck to travel the world extensively in my business career. My GK is not too bad on any objective view, and I find your insinuation quite offensive.

      And last (but by no means least), your pot shot at “daft” bloggers… Please learn some respect. Appalling attitude.

      Edited at 2014-12-23 12:19 pm (UTC)

      1. Nick,
         Despite his protestations this setter is notoriously thin-skinned and prone to the odd fit of pique on blogs. Rather like Paxman on University Challenge, it is easy to be smug and superior when you are holding all the answers!
4. … one should show goodwill to the daft people as well as the sensible, rather than line up only with the like-minded! Many of my friends think I’m daft, and I suspect they are right!
5. I found this quite a challenge and had to check DAGOBA and FLEABANE on Google before I put them in (is this allowed?!). I knew BARRA as I have been there and it where the real life ‘Whisky Galore’ incident took place. I couldn’t understand why NYLON was an African flower so thanks to blogger for pointing out the other meaning of flower.
   1. Allowed? Certainly! Crosswords are meant to be fun – so if you want sneak peaks then take them. As time goes by, though, you may find yourself putting them in on ‘an educated guess’/’wing and a prayer’ – delete which is least appropriate. This is my normal MO when I come across new terms.
6. I have really enjoyed the Izetti puzzles so far and seeing his name at the top first thing in the morning is a good start to the day but I am afraid I’m more with Nick than Izetti in this debate. But maybe it is at least helpful to know the attitude behind the setter. We shall no doubt see next time. Happy Christmas
7. Sorry pressed the post key too soon, I meant to add that this puzzle would have been impossible to understand without the blog so we need both Izetti and the bloggers to learn and join the club. Seasons greetings to both.

   Edited at 2014-12-23 02:15 pm (UTC)

8. Sorry to see the discord here. I thought that This was a hard puzzle for the QC, but then an occasional difficult one should be around every so often so that we novices may learn and progress with the main puzzles too. If they were all this hard, I would agree with the criticism, but no need for feathers to be ruffled…..
   40 minutes of a slog for me, but a good sense of satisfaction at finishing. Despite extensive traveling I too have never come across DAGOBA, but I’m also happy to learn it!
9. You will only learn from “doh” moments and from clues that you struggle to answer.A good analogy would be physical training where you add resistance to exercise to gain muscle tissue (and muscle memory). Isnt a crossword a workout for the mind?
10. As another beginner/improver, this took me pretty much all afternoon. Fleabane and Barra are fine but Dagoba is a real weird one. I MUST remember that flowers are not flowers but rivers in Xwordland. This must be about the third time I have been fooled by this. The blog is not just helpful but necessary to convert the frustration to a learning process so keep up the good work all you regulars and 22ac to all of you.
    1. Well, yes, flowers ARE rivers, except for when they’re plants 🙂
11. Decided to de-lurk and say hello. I found this pretty tricky, but useful for us learners (started trying to solve cryptics around the time that these QCs appeared and have made steady-ish progress). About 25 mins for me today. Thanks for this blog and compliments of the season to all.
    1. Hello and welcome! Yes, far better to blog than lurk, I always think. 25 minutes for today’s means excellent rather than steady progress. Keep at it!
       1. Thanks – I’d really like to be able to solve the main one on a regular basis but i’m finding the jump in difficulty tricky to deal with. I’m OK with the Sunday puzzle (except when Mr Mayer sets it) and occasionally try week-day puzzles when I see the solving times are generally quick. Guess it’s just a question of keeping at it!
12. I solve on paper but was unable to get a copy on my way to work so a much later solve than normal. I found this very tricky, particularly the bottom left. BARRA was one of my first in. FLEABANE was unknown but was able to work it out (after a long time) from the two part anagram and thought it a good clue. However I am firmly in the camp that DAGOBA does not belong in a quick cryptic.
13. Struggled for ages with the NE corner untill confetti jumped out, but thought the rest wasn’t too bad. Never come across Dagoba before, but it was very clearly flagged in the clue and the blogging tip from the other day (when stuck, look for hidden answers in the clue itself) helped.
    I know only too well how frustrating it can get when you spend ages trying to understand a clue, but I don’t think Izetti was too far from the mark today. I mean this would have been a sub 1hr finish for me if I could have cracked the flow-er and last of 12 a bit quicker, which of course I will be able to do next time. Cheers to all. Invariant
14. Far too tricky for me today. Thanks for the helpful blog Chris – I can assure you that from this beginner’s perspective today was as hard as they come for a QC. I think it’s just the accumulation of clues that rely on specialist crosswordland abbreviations and/or relatively obscure GK that can make it difficult to get going. A few easy clues make a huge difference as they get us newbies going and having a few letters makes all the difference on the harder clues. Today there were very few ‘gimmes’ so it was tough.
15. I think what I have learned about flowers is that they are more likely to be rivers when the surface suggests they are plants…..we see what you sneaky setters are doing !
    1. Fooling the solver is the raisin d’être of a setter – and you’d probably add bloomers into that – loaves – flowers – rivers. I would point out though that the folk on this site are not setters. We’re just well meaning solvers who try, voluntarily, to help out. This puzzle was a very rare exception when the setter did actually comment – and unfortunately upset most of the regular readership. 🙁
16. Struggling yesterday but happy to have solved Today’s Quick Cryptic without help or aids before the blogger has got to work. I enjoy the variety and the surprises.
    1. Well done! I see the blog for today is now up. Merry Christmas!

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