| 1 |
Fido playing with cat? It’s probably not true (7) |
|
FACTOID – anagram (‘playing’) of FIDO + CAT. ‘An item of unreliable information that is reported and repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact’ |
| 5 |
Card game and second card game (4) |
|
SNAP – S + NAP (also a card game) |
| 7 |
Queen abandons train tax (6) |
|
EXCISE – ER taken out of EXERCISE. I have nothing whatsoever against our current Queen Consort, but when someone says ‘the Queen’ I will never not think of Elizabeth II |
| 8 |
Unexpected answer brought round, using past tense to begin with (6) |
|
ABRUPT – acronym |
| 9 |
Mathematical figure finally struck corrupt Nobel title (5,6) |
|
KLEIN BOTTLE – [STRUC]K + anagram (‘corrupt’) of NOBEL TITLE. ‘a closed surface with only one side’, cf Möbius Strip. |
| 10 |
Dog’s underwear (6) |
|
BOXERS – double definition |
| 12 |
Stage covered in man-made greenery (6) |
|
DEGREE – hidden word. This one got me hook line and sinker, my LOI |
| 14 |
Gardener involved with big cake (11) |
|
GINGERBREAD – anagram (‘involved’) of GARDENER + BIG |
| 17 |
First aid welcomed by soldiers (6) |
|
MAIDEN – AID inside MEN |
| 18 |
US writer to attempt verse (6) |
|
POETRY – POE (Edgar Allan) + TRY |
| 20 |
Misled, losing exterior key? (4) |
|
ISLE – [M]ISLE[D] |
| 21 |
Decorum of style — 60 per cent of style (7) |
|
MODESTY – MODE (style) + STY (60% of STYLE) |
Well, I finished this puzzle in a not unrespectable 12:21, but I can’t really agree with our blogger’s description of it as “thoroughly enjoyable “. I thought there were too many loose definitions: I had a minor MER at exercise for train (they are not the same), and cake for GINGERBREAD (surely it is a biscuit), and a major one at unexpected for abrupt (definitely not the same); there was some very obscure GK (I have actually heard of KLEIN BOTTLE as some 50 years ago I took a maths degree, but it is hardly GK), the NHO KNOTGRASS, and the American DIAMOND for a sports area. And so on; by the end the teeth were a touch gritted.
A shame, as there were also some very good clues in the mix. So something of a curate’s egg for me I’m afraid.
Many thanks Curarist for the blog.
I think you may be being a little unfair, as the first definitions of both GINGERBREAD and ABRUPT are as given by the setter. Both transitive and intransitive senses of TRAIN also include references to exercise.
I’d never heard of the KLEIN BOTTLE, but with an initial K given, it wasn’t too tough.
I solved the thing in a pretty poor time, too (12:36), so I’d love to have a moan, but I think this is all pukka and above board!
And now you’re being quite generous, I think Cedric is simply wrong about ABRUPT on this occasion
Points taken, though on gingerbread, perhaps this is a US/UK thing – from the internet “Gingerbread … often refers to a cake in North America, while it frequently implies a hard biscuit in the UK”. It would fit with City’s greater familiarity than mine with a Diamond. As for Abrupt, I would say the more common meanings are sudden, curt, rude – I can think of people who have a very abrupt manner and it is not in the least bit unexpected when you encounter it!
I suspect from the subsequent comments that one of the issues with the Knotgrass and Klein bottle clues is that neither are too hard to construct if you have the initial K from the other. As it happened I did know the bottle, so could guess the NHO weed, but if you are stumped on both, you are somewhat snookered.
Yes, the 9s are tricky and certainly held me up. Sounds like ‘not grass’ for KNOTGRASS is devious for being so congruent.
‘The passage came to an abrupt/unexpected end…’ You cannot confine your thinking to only one definition…
I agree Cedric. I would also add that 16D is unfair. Humans are bipeds as well as many other creatures. It should have been “ostrich, say” IMO. Klein bottle is a NHO as is knotgrasss (as opposed to knotweed which I have definitely HO.). And 13D: we’re supposed to surmise that it’s geese?
Just two on the first pass of acrosses and those were the very last two: ISLE and MODESTY. Downs gave me a route in and then good progress until a bit stuck on the last two. Hadn’t heard of a KLEIN BOTTLE or KNOTGRASS – pesky science – but clued kindly if you have all the checkers. All green in 13.05. THe most fun I’ve had doing a puzzle for quite a while – bravo City!
Exactly my experience of the solving process but sadly I didn’t enjoy it – sorry City!
This felt tricky whilst doing it but it eventually only took me slightly over my average solving time.
I couldn’t parse SNAP, having not heard of the game ‘nap’, needed all the checkers for the unknown KLEIN BOTTLE (my heart sank when I saw the definition, maths not being my thing) and KNOTGRASS was also new to me but very kindly clued and sounded similar enough to the dreaded Japanese Knotweed to feel plausible.
Started with FOX and finished with SNAP in 7.56.
Thanks to Curarist and City
I’ve just realised that I thought it *was* knotweed! Oops. They all count …
I did know it was not knotweed, but did not know what knotgrass is! Having just looked it up, it turns out I’m always pulling it out of my flower beds, so in my book that makes it a weed 😅
19:27 Found the degree of difficulty eg klein bottle almost led me to snap.
TaCAC
Only four in 20 minutes, and only three in five minutes. Chinese, apprehend, nudge on the first pass. Degree on the second pass. I got the gee but was thinking gee-wizz for wow. Is gee-wizz shortened Jesus wizards, as I have heard the latter used in that way.
Thanks C and C
Sadly, this one not for us. Not on wavelength. A treacle day.
NHO KLEIN BOTTLE, KNOTGRASS, DIAMOND in baseball, NAP as a card game nor GINGERBREAD as a cake. MER at train. OCEAN? BIPED as Ostrich? X for vote? – felt laboured.
Doubtless a healthy challenge –
Thank you Curarist -and City.
Pretty pleased to compete this in 45 minutes as I came to a complete halt more than once.
Didn’t know KLEIN BOTTLE but as ulaca says the initial K led to the answer and although KNOTGRASS was vaguely familiar it needed all the crossers.
Spent too long looking for a synonym for ‘misled’ when the answer ‘isle’ was in front of me. Good clue.
Thanks City and Curarist
Klein bottle? seriously?
I don;t think that was even the worst of it, though that may just be because I managed to work it out eventually (more by luck than judgement). Overall, pretty turgid going for anybody that hasn’t been doing these for years or doesn’t work for GCHQ.
Quite!
I started by not getting 1a, solved FOX to get the starting letter, got FACTOID, wondered if it was right and decided that this could be a day of elliptical definitions. I did like BIPED and EXCISE. DIAMOND and GEE for wow continued the creeping Americanisms.
NHO LOI KLEIN BOTTLE, what a strange thing! All done in 08:14 for a Tough Day. Many thanks City and Curarist.
I agree with many comments above especially regarding the weed and bottle (I did maths to a high level and never encountered Klein). I finished it with a sigh but strayed into the SCC, partly because I wanted to parse them all.
As Cedric says: ‘a curate’s egg’ but the enjoyment of solving the good parts was outweighed by the eyebrow raising at the poor (e.g. Ostrich for biped) as far as I am concerned. I didn’t really like it overall.
Thanks both, anyway.
P.s. I did look up Klein Bottle and was intrigued by it – as ‘a mathematical, non-orientable surface with no distinct inside, outside, or edge, meaning it is one-sided and boundaryless.’ A fascinating extension of the well-known Möbius Strip. It dates from 1882, apparently. Amazing what you discover via the QC…..
15:55 for the solve. Hmm, not my bag. Too many obscurities – NHO KNOTGRASS, NAP or RAY=bar. I’m stunned to learn those occasions when Steve Wright gave us FACTOIDs they weren’t necessarily true. CHINESE was the only anagram I could unravel without checkers. Missed the ABRUPT acrostic and DEGREE hidden on first readthrough. Enjoyed the GEE-GEES clue. My solve helped out by the OCEAN / SPRAT chestnuts.
The week coming in at 1hr02 of which ten mins was wasted over two days on a pair of last pairs – so overall pretty good.
Thanks to Curarist and City and have a good weekend everybody
Ha ha! When I eventually saw “Factoid” (after an initial “Tacfoid”) it was the very first thing I thought of.
I had always assumed Steve Wright was telling us little facts. I think thats an alternative meaning of the word.
Thank you for reassuring me. I’d always assumed that’s what they were
13:30
I enjoyed this puzzle, despite the unknown KNOTGRASS. Luckily I had heard of a KLEIN BOTTLE. LOI was POETRY.
Thanks Curarist and City
DNF disaster. Had to reveal eg NHO KLEIN BOTTLE(!), and KNOT and DIAMOND and FOX, though could have got the latter.
But I guess I enjoyed the parts I did solve, e.g. SNAP, POETRY.
Thanks for vital blog, Curarist. CNP EXCISE, for instance.
If anyone wants to see what a Klein bottle looks like https://youtu.be/SYBRxqEE4XQ?t=46 and Matt’s search for the Klein-ing frame at the maths park.
Thank you! Whacky…
Thanks I did watch this, having been totally flummoxed by the term, but unfortunately it seems to assume you know what it is beforehand, so it’s somewhat circular. I need to be led by the hand starting at a much earlier stage of (total) ignorance. Anyway, why is it (whatever “it” is) called that – after some inventor called Herr Klein? Or is (was) he American?
Felix Klein – German.
Klein Bottle and Mobeus strips are mathematic concepts, you can make real physical models of them, but then the mathematic concepts no longer hold.
Difficult to describe, but a square is a mathematical concept, you think you can make a square from a piece of paper, but then the paper will have thickness so it will have 3 dimensions whereas a square has only 2.
If you think of a cube that has 3 dimensions, 6 faces and 12 edges. A mobeus strip has 2 dimensions, length and width but only 1 face and 1 edge. A klien bottle has one dimension, area, one face and no edges.
You can have real-world objects that are strange, but they must all have 3 dimensions. For instance a sphere has 3 dimensions, but only one face and no edges.
I hope that hasnt made things worse for you!
You’re most kind, thank you. I don’t really understand how something with an “area” can have only one dimension (surely area = length x width, so two?), and once you say “no edges” I’m lost, I still can’t really imagine (despite the video) what it looks like. But then if it has no edges it presumably cannot physically exist, is no more than a concept. So no, not worse, but not much better! Thanks anyway.
Try this video instead … https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TCpbyVQMg-Y
Thank you! Mystifying – what a bizarre Escher-like concept. Wonder what the point of it is. Mrs M (who did a maths degree) has NHO it either. Amazed the entire company here seems to know all about it.
Surely then it is impossible to make a 2 dimensional object in the real world, as the slightest suggestion of depth (as defined by the boundary edges) will create a 3 dimensional figure?
I’m not a professional mathematician (only to A level) but I think: surely your word “make” is right, but “create” is still possible, by drawing on a piece of paper. A drawn square surely has two dimensions. Any objection due to the indentation of the pencil mark into the paper may surely be dismissed. Isn’t that right?
Without getting all theoretical (or talking a load of old nonsense), any physical indentation will have depth, even at the atomic level – which begs the question whether a 2 dimensional object can really be made/created in a 3 dimensional world.
Reminds me that I’ve always wanted to read Flatland. (Spoiler.. the inhabitants are happy in their 2D ignorance until they meet a sphere)
Spoiler..the females are one-dimensional and very dangerous.
Great find!
17 minutes. Not the most comfortable solve because rather too many answers went in with a “Hm, I suppose so…”. KLEIN BOTTLE came from the anagrist but rang the faintest of bells so I have probably seen it in a previous puzzle (maybe not a QC though).
24:00. Reduced to many biffs and alphabet trawls to finish. NHO KLEIN BOTTLE and struggled with FOX. Difficult.
No problem with the Klein bottle, as I have one in view on the kitchen shelf. It doubles as a bottle opener! I don’t recall coming across City as a setter before, but enjoyed his/her offering. All correct and parsed in a reasonable time before the cuppa has been made. Liked FACTOID and BIPED.
Thanks. City and Curarist
I’m with the blogger. Thoroughly enjoyable quick crossword. Even remembered the Klein bottle though last encountered about 60 years ago!
A thoroughly enjoyable struggle. I had to think harder than breakfast time usually permits, but I enjoyed all those lightbulb moments today. The Klein thing was a NHO but had to be once sufficient checkers appeared. I didn’t feel that anything strayed outside the normal latitude permissible to setters so slightly surprised at the contrary feelings of some – but that’s the fun of it I suppose, we are all different. MISLED was elegantly simple, I liked the ostrich, ABRUPT should have leapt out at me but for some reason didn’t until later on.
Thanks all.
From FOX to ISLE in 10:52. Didn’t know KLEIN BOTTLE, but with the K given as first letter, it wasn’t too hard to arrange the anagrist. Had heard of knotweed so KNOTGRASS was a small leap. DIAMOND took a while and a forehead slap after it materialised. Thanks City and Curarist.
Sort of finished it, but an awful lot of guesses so your good blog was essential fare, thank you Curarist. NHO NAP, KLEIN BOTTLE (may we know a little more?), DIAMOND (surely only US), KNOTGRASS.
10:03
Definitely on the harder side, I felt, though, apart from the heard-of-but-no-idea-in-what-context KLEIN BOTTLE, and the shrug for KNOTGRASS (heard of Japanese Knotweed), not quite sure what the hold-up was. Took several moments to think of BOXERS, but where I was really stuck was 13d, where I thought of GEE quickly, but based on DIAMOND and POE TRY, had it in mind that I was looking for an Americanism such as GEE WHIZZ. Took far longer than it should to take a step back and re-engineer my thinking.
Thanks Curarist and City
Have to say I did not enjoy this “QC” one bit. I lost interest in it and stopped.
Have to agree. DNF for me and to many obscure clues to be a decent QC
Made a real mess, took 23 mins and my LOI had a green square, FIX. Spent ages on both FACTOID and GINGERBREAD.
A true Klein Bottle only exists in Four dimensions.
Mixed views on this one, I agree with most of the MERs given above, but not all. Even as a Maths/Physics/Chemistry graduate I dont believe that I came across a klein bottle, (although I do know what it is now) so I agree it is far too obscure for a QC, but then is anything too obscure for a QC if it can be biffed from all of the crossers? Probably not judging by some of the stuff we have had in the past. Biggest self-pat-on-back for finally getting key=island with no crossers in, biggest MER was grass=weed, better not tell the garden centres that, they sell tons of turfs and grass seed. Anything that is growing where its not wanted is a weed, so I suppose that both grass and oak trees could be considered to be weeds if they are growing in the middle of your drive. Still plenty to enjoy. Thanks City and Curarist.
Foi was the foreboding Abrupt, so I settled back for a long haul. A mostly entertaining nearly 30mins later, the nho Klein Bottle was loi. As Cedric noted, Knotgrass has its uses, after all.
Looking back, most of City’s clues were not quite as difficult as they appeared at first glance, so I hope there is still plenty of room for improvement, as their style (slowly) becomes more familiar. We shall see.
CoD to Gee-gees for the parsing. Invariant
I found this to be very tough, and I needed 20.12 to complete it. KLEIN BOTTLE went in more in hope than anything, and I took for ever to get BOXERS. FACTOID is a word that I have heard of only on hearing it used on the late Steve Wright’s afternoon radio programme. I’ll give myself a little excuse in that I was trying to solve it in the presence of my three grandchildren, who seemed hell bent on making as much noise as possible.
Not a great solving week taking me a total time of 60.41, giving me a daily average of 12.08.
I found this hard. Bunging in FICTION early at 1a was not a help; I suspected it might be wrong.
My last two were POETRY and BOXERS; both relatively easy with hindsight but perhaps I’m a bit tired today after a late night watching The Masters.
DNK KNOTGRASS or KLEINBOTTLE but was able to work them out from the cryptics. No problem with Diamond.
20 minutes in all. COD to MAIDEN.
David
NHO Klein Bottle, factoid or knotgrass. Biffed Diamond as I had the checkers, but another QC with too many Americanisms for the British Times newspaper. I had originally decided 13d was Gos-hawk, ( Gosh for Gee and awk for bird) but couldn’t see why and then Poetry and Modesty put me right. Not too difficult. Thanks to Blogger.
Didn’t bother to time myself today, but around 20 mins.
NHO NAP or KLEIN BOTTLE, so found it hard.
Neither had I. Turns out it’s short for Napoleon, which I also haven’t heard of as a game 🙄
A learning experience for us both. I thought I knew all the card games!
9.03
Very tricky I’d say. Never heard of KLEIN BOTTLE and only vaguely aware of the GRASS and FACTOID. Two of them clued as anagrams, shock, horror!
No complaints but not surprised some struggled.
Thanks Curarist and City
24 mins…
I thought this was on the harder side, with a number of clues taking a while to twig. As well as the NHO of 9ac “Klein Bottle”, I struggled with the NW corner – putting in first “Vex” and then “Tax” for 1dn until I finally resolved 1ac “Factoid”.
FOI – 3dn “Ocean”
LOI – 1ac “Factoid”
COD – 13dn “Gee-Gees”
PS. As I have reverted to an online subscription, I’m now either doing these online or printing off from the web. However, even though I mentioned this years ago, there still doesn’t seem to be a way of printing the puzzles off the app on Apple devices. Am I being technically inept, or is this still a problem?
Gave up after 8 clues solved. Way beyond a normal QC I think. Way beyond me anyway.
I enjoyed this puzzle. My grandmother used to make a cake called gingerbread so I had no problem with that clue. I learned about Klein Bottles 50 years ago at school. My only (abrupt) surprise was the suggestion that Steve Wright used to spread misinformation.
Surely not!
This took me a very long time but I enjoyed the (many) challenges. NHO KLEIN BOTTLE but GK surely doesn’t matter in a cryptic puzzle as you can solve with the wordplay 😉 GINGERBREAD is always a cake in our household, whereas gingerbread biscuit is, well, a biscuit. Wasn’t really sure whether I knew about DIAMOND but the wordplay was kind and I had all the checkers. GEE-GEES took forever but gets COD. The most problematical two for me were MAIDEN (totally misdirected) and MODESTY (because I was fixated on ‘majesty’). A tricky Friday but very enjoyable. Many thanks City and Curarist.
Gave up after 15 minutes and only solved 6 clues. When my thinking starts goes round in circles, that is the time to stop because there’s no pleasure in that. The Klein Bottle would have been easier with the term ‘Topological figure’ in the clue! The other clues were too obscure for me!
29 minutes, which I’d like to think is about average for me (I no longer keep records, so that may be a FACTOID). What is true, however, is that the pattern of today’s solve was almost the same as yesterday’s: fast to six clues to go, then a 6-7 minute brain freeze until one of those six clues succumbed and the rest of them fell like skittles in 1-2 minutes.
Today’s offending six were ABRUPT, SPRAT, DIAMOND, KLEIN BOTTLE, KNOTGRASS and BOXERS.
Is baseball a sport? My son watches it occasionally and says it involves even more standing around doing nothing than cricket.
Many thanks to Curarist and City.
Tough one for me, into the SCC and a dnf to boot: Mr Klein’s bottle being a new one on me (O level maths). The anagrams were fun as were the hiddens, but I completely misread 5d coming up with SCRAP (for quarrel) with a carp being about – oh dear. So BOTTLE would not go in and I gave up. Is City an American setter? Key for isle, and factoid and gingerbread cake seem to point that way. Lol BOXERS (first thought was BRIEFS, unparsable) but my cod – on the eve of the Grand National – was 13d GEE GEES. Half the UK will be having a flutter tomorrow…. Thanks setter and blogger!
I had the same unknowns as others here i.e. NAP, KLEIN BOTTLE, and KNOTGRASS although the clues were all doable with checkers in play. My main delay was my LOI DIAMOND. I liked the story telling for MAIDEN. 8:11 Thanks Curarist
33.53 Oh dear. I found this very hard throughout and then got stuck for ages on last two GEE-GEES and DEGREE. I thought I was past getting stuck on hiddens. Thanks Curarist and City.
14 minutes. Definitely on the harder side for me with some like the NHO KLEIN BOTTLE going in from wordplay or crossers. Not helped by being stuck on the close to a chestnut BOXERS at the end. I thought SNAP was clever.
Thanks to City and Curarist
Estimated time of around 45 mins – decided to put it away for a bit, but forgot to check the clock. While I found this tough, I didn’t help myself by failing to spot the hidden in 12ac and trying to do something with leg for stage. Once I sorted that the NE came together. NHO Klein Bottle but came up with it from the anagram fodder. Didn’t know nap either, but justified snap by thinking we had 2 matching card games.
FOI Excise
LOI Abrupt
COD Maiden
Thanks City and Curarist
We were a minute or two over par at 13:59. I think I’ve come across KNOTGRASS but the wordplay was pretty generous anyway an then once we had its K then KLEIN BOTTLE (which I had definitely heard of) became apparent. There were other clues which were out of the ‘ordinary’ e. g. DIAMOND but I thought it was no less enjoyable for that. Really, KLEIN BOTTLE was the only one where I thought there might be complaints. Personally I’d sooner have a bit of a workout than a fast time. Many thanks to Curarist and City.
A curate’s egg for me too, for similar reasons as many comments above, but time-wise it was about average. Initially nothing really jumped out as tickable, but on review, I did quite like BOXERS, POETRY and FOX. No problem with BIPED – perhaps you needed a bit more 15×15 -style reasoning, but the wordplay was clear. Same with KLEIN BOTTLE. That was the only ‘wasn’t sure of’ (as supposed to NHO). As I said to Plett and Templar, I was aware of KNOTGRASS but didn’t know what it looked like. Turns out I’ve got quite a lot in the garden 😅 I tend to think of GINGERBREAD as a biscuit – after all it’s what they nearly always use for the show stoppers in biscuit week on Bake-Off as it’s so robust!
10:33 FOI Abrupt LOI Boxers COD Factoid
Thanks City and Curarist
I’m feeling better than yesterday but apparently the little grey cells aren’t, as it took me 22:17 to solve this. KLEIN BOTTLE came to mind immediately but then I tried to put KNOTweed and found myself in trouble. I was pleased with myself for remembering GEE-GEE; unfortunately I also remember both SkAt and SnAp but didn’t know nap as a card game, and dithered for a long time. DIAMOND startled me and I wondered if it is really fair in a British puzzle. I’ll take it though. Weirdly I couldn’t see BOXERS for an age. Maybe go back to bed. A lot of slantwise literals like stage for degree, first for maiden, key for isle gave this a 15×15 feel. Good puzzle, something different.
Thanks City and Curarist.
Er …. dear SC,
What’s a slantwise literal when it’s at home? Might I have one amongst my tools in the garage, or maybe one’s hiding amongst the host of other rarely used implements in kitchen drawers.
No problems today except for the LOI, SNAP, which held me up because I hadn’t heard of Nap before. But it had to be. Everything else bunged in before going out, but that had to wait until my return to do a checking alpha-trawl. NHO KLEIN BOTTLE, naturally, but what other words could you make with the anagrist, for goodness sake? I can’t understand people complaining that something is obscure if it’s perfectly solvable without the GK. And then, hey! You’ve learnt something new!
Very slow start and it didn’t really improve much. I had read all the acrosses down to 18 before finding a solvable clue. The downs went better, especially at the top but the last few took a great deal of unravelling. I finished up in 27 minutes with everything parsed except 8ac ABRUPT and 21ac MODESTY. NHO KLEIN BOTTLE but I saw bottle in the anagrist and inferred Klein from the remaining letters. It helped that I had already thought that 9dn might begin ‘knot’ and the vaguely heard of KNOTGRASS was a short leap from there.
Some tricky definitions here but nothing that couldn’t (eventually) be extracted from the wordplay.
FOI – 18ac POETRY
LOI – 17ac MAIDEN
COD – 10ac BOXERS
Thanks to City and Curarist
16:06 for me. Luckily I had heard of the KLEIN BOTTLE, but ISLE took me a long long time to spot.
Thanks to City and Curarist.
My last attempt at a City QC was pretty hard work, and so was this. Mostly fair, but a little spoilt for me by KLEIN BOTTLE, which seems beyond QC, also can’t get my head around degree for stage, but obvious from wordplay. Thanks to both.
This resident of the SCC gave up with about 50% unsolved and with a sense that it was “all too hard”. Looking at the blog, there are some I would never have got (exercise for train and hence EXCISE for one, NHO KNOTGRASS as another). I did feel pleased to get KLEIN BOTTLE (maths degree) but that convinced me that much would be beyond me.