Times 27405 – sink or swim

Author   piquetPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
I swam or 20a quickly through this one, 15 or 16 minutes, pausing only to think about 22a and my LOI 27a in terms of parsing. Nothing else very scary or exciting. A few obvious anagrams should get you well on the way.

Next week my learned colleague Olivia will be doing the honours again while I move house, so none of my nonsense!

Across
1 Man from another planet intercepted by copper (6)
MARCUS – An easy one for Verlaine, perhaps? CU goes inside MARS.
5 Worthless plane makers suffering setback — evidence of metal fatigue? (8)
GIMCRACK – Our usual Russian MIG is reversed, followed by a CRACK.
9 Time of revolution finishing — grand for short time (8)
GERMINAL – TERMINAL has its T replaced by a G.
10 Phone city in Alabama (6)
MOBILE – Double definition. Different pronunciations.
11 Hard world where things can get very hot (6)
HEARTH – H(ard), EARTH.
12 Threat to health, minute one found in time (8)
LISTERIA – LIST = minute, as in minute of a meeting; ERA has I inserted.
14 Unease of party politician with nothing certain (12)
DISCOMPOSURE – DISCO = party, MP = politician, O SURE = nothing certain.
17 One rogue’s run off — “brainy” operator? (12)
NEUROSURGEON – (ONE ROGUES RUN)*.
20 Lifelong publishing employee made fast progress (8)
CAREERED – CAREER = lifelong, as in ‘career ambition’; ED in publishing.
22 Youngster, said by Australian to be a chip off the old block? (6)
SHIVER – I’m not big on Oz speak, but my Australian seafaring uncle used to call me “The Shaver” when I was eight or nine, so I guess this is an Oz pronunciation of SHIVER as ‘SHYVER’ for shaver, and shiver is a synonym for a sliver or shard.
23 Month seeing end of winter has sheep getting grass (6)
MARRAM – MAR(ch), RAM = sheep. Marram grass is that coarse stuff which grows on sand dunes.
25 Cooking two fish to cover starter for dinner (8)
CODDLING – COD and LING have D(inner) inserted.
26 Alarming changes on the border (8)
MARGINAL – (ALARMING)*.
27 Revolutionary period involved in no end of vile execution by drowning (6)
NOYADE – DAY reversed inside NO (vil)E = no end of vile. From French noyer to drown, notably execution by said method as practised in the “Reign of Terror” at Nantes in 1793-4.

Down
2 Mountain features exist, appearing above ascending group (6)
ARETES – ARE = exist, TES = SET reversed.
3 Friendship of dear America going awry (11)
CAMARADERIE – (DEAR AMERICA)*.
4 Oddly saying academic work offers reconciliation of ideas? (9)
SYNTHESIS – S a Y i N g > SYN, THESIS = academic work.
5 Miss one constellation as astronomer with primitive telescope (7)
GALILEO – Miss = GAL, I = one, LEO constellation.
6 Notes a particular male going the wrong way (5)
MEMOS – SOME M reversed.
7 Difficulty chipping end off stone (3)
RUB – RUB(Y). As in “aye, there’s the rub” spoken by Hamlet.
8 Underground workers using dogs to catch snooper finally (8)
COLLIERS – COLLIES dogs catch an R from end of snooper.
13 Industrial German city — it upset colleague, by its very nature (11)
ESSENTIALLY – ESSEN on the Ruhr, IT reversed, ALLY = colleague.
15 Journalists meeting knotty situation to the north kept going (7,2)
PRESSED ON – PRESS = journalists, NODE = knotty situation, reversed.
16 Type of information encountered — notice a brief acknowledgement (8)
METADATA – MET = encountered, AD = notice, A, TA = brief thanks.
18 A bitter uprising separating two sides on the left? (7)
RADICAL – R and L = two sides, insert A and ACID reversed. R (A DICA) L.
19 Was monarch no good to be restricted? (6)
REINED – REIGNED loses its G = no good.
21 Dish on Japanese menu? Head of restaurant has the final word (5)
RAMEN – r(estaurant), AMEN = final word.A Japanese dish with noodles in a broth.
24 Charity event in tabloid? (3)
RAG – Double definition.

65 comments on “Times 27405 – sink or swim”

  1. A DNF in 26 minutes, with ‘sliver’ at 22a. I didn’t know ‘shaver’ for a youngster, but even with our mellifluous, sandblasted Australian vowels, ‘shaver’ may sound like ‘shyver’ but it doesn’t sound like ‘shiver’. That’s more like a Kiwi pronunciation if anything. Maybe someone has a better explanation though.

    I liked GALILEO and the (3 days late) clues referring to the French revolution.

    Thank you to setter and blogger

    1. I had the same thought re Kiwis. But then, to my ears Kiwis generate vowels entirely at random, presumably for the fun of baffling outsiders.

      Edited at 2019-07-17 06:24 am (UTC)

  3. Got away with the unknowns or forgottens ARETES, MARRAM and RAMEN arrived at from wordplay but eventually came a cropper with the completely unknown NOYADE where I failed to get beyond N?YAD?. I now find it has come up only once before, in a Sunday Times puzzle in 2007 before I started doing them. I also wrote TERMINAL at 9 knowing full well that it was wrong, but I had not remembered GERMINAL in the required sense despite having written about it at some length in a comment in May earlier this year

    Edited at 2019-07-17 04:36 am (UTC)

    1. I seem to have been lucky in knowing RAMEN. I mostly came to the word through hearing of people in harsh circumstances (be they financially burdened or on hiking trips in Tibet) eating nothing but instant ramen—read “Pot Noodle”—for months on end. But if you can get yourself to a good Japanese/pan-Asian restaurant there’s much nicer ramen to sample!

      Edited at 2019-07-17 09:36 am (UTC)

      1. In Silicon Valley, venture capitalists have a phrase “ramen profitable” which means a group of programmers all living together in a flat and living on ramen are cash-flow positive. It is , they hope, a step on a way to being a unicorn with a $1B valuation (although come to think of it, most of them are ridiculously unprofitable).
    2. Hey jackkt, Out of curiosity, how do you know that this word hasn’t come up since 2007? Presumably you are looking through an archive? Thanks, WS.
      1. Things may appear differently depending on the device you are using but as viewed on my PC and android tablet there is Search field top right of the TftT page, next to a magnifying glass symbol. On my iPhone there is a 3-bar Menu symbol at the top left, and Search is one of the items listed on it.

        It’s pretty reliable, although at one time bloggers omitted certain answers each day in accordance with the then TftT policy, but it’s fair to assume that any unusual words would not be amongst them.

  4. SLIVER in desperation; well, it’s a chip off the old block, innit? And as bletchleyr says, the word SHIVER isn’t pronounced as our putative Aussie pronounces ‘shaver’, and the word ‘shiver’ rhyming with ‘fiver’ isn’t a word; or is it?
  5. Don’t think I’ve ever done this before but I refused to submit this one, as – 10 minutes of hard thinking later – I could see no compelling reason why 22ac would be SHIVER over SLIVER. I can’t see how anyone could possibly pronounce “shaver” to make it sound like “shiver”, and if that’s the actual intention of the clue then I think this is very possibly the worst I’ve ever seen in the Times :p
    1. I agree, but was reluctant to be so outspoken in the blog, having been told off a couple of times for being negative. I tried to make it sound like sense, but it isn’t.
      1. Agree. Stupid, and bad clue.

        Finished this one in under 30 mins, delayed only by 20ac

      2. The Oz pronunciation of “shaver” rhymes with “driver”. Maybe the compiler thought that when “shiver” means sliver it is pronounced that way. If so, according to Chambers, he is wrong: in that source, shiver meaning slice and shiver meaning response to cold or dread are said to be pronounced the same.
  7. My 16 minutes was extended to nearly 22 trying to make sense of 22. Even with an exhaustive alphabet trawl, nothing seemed to work. I bunged in SHIVER in desperation, but with no conviction, and I’m still not convinced. My electric Chambers tells me there are 113 was to fill in S?I?E?.
    Pity, the rest of the crossword was fine if a little reliant on French for two clues and Old Norse (apparently) and guesswork for the grass. Valiant effort, Pip, best of luck with relocation.
  8. Another Australian who has never heard shaver pronounce anything close to shiver. Guessed sliver as the only possibility, though I realise I have heard of shivers. Never heard of shaver as a youngster. Otherwise zipped through, with correct guesses on the unknowns.
  9. I was at about 25 minutes when I correctly ventured the unknown but constructed RAMEN and NOYADO and turned my attention to LOI SHAVER/SHIVER/SLIVER. All seemed to have connections with the clue but none seemed to work. I did eventually go for SHIVER, because it had tenuous links to both parts of the clue, but I was expecting to be wrong. It certainly doesn’t work for any Aussie pronunciation I know. Whatever. I know MOBILE for two linked reasons: apparently if stuck there you get the Memphis blues. maybe because Memphis is the nearest place where there’s any toilet paper. COD to GIMCRACK. Thank you Pip and setter.

    Edited at 2019-07-17 08:38 am (UTC)

    1. I’ve just read that AFC Chester have had to cancel Saturday’s scheduled friendly against Bolton Wanderers – apparently the Bolton players haven’t been paid, yet again, and have refused to turn out. I may not be a Bolton fan, but I’m very much a traditionalist. I find this situation thoroughly depressing.
      1. And I’m depressed, Phil. It’s now a game of brinkmanship between the two sets of administrators, those for the club and ground, and those for the hotel. Talk about the cart driving the horse.
  10. DNF. I would have finished this in a quick, for me, 17 mins but for the quite bizarre SHIVER. I defy anyone to solve this by a process other than guesswork.
  11. 25 mins (to get to the Shiver/Sliver dilemma) with yoghurt, granola, blueberry compote, etc.
    I thought it was ok, but there were enough MERs to keep suggesting something dodgy might spoil the party.
    For what it is worth, I guessed Sliver, then came here. What would we do without TftT?
    Thanks setter and Pip.
  12. Didn’t enjoy this one. It seemed almost amateur to me. Among other gripes, why was ‘industrial’ and ‘with primitive telescope’ necessary? and SHIVER put a strine on my tolerance level.
  13. 22ac SHIVER doesn’t even come close to any Aussie or Kiwi pronunciation I’ve ever come across. I now live in NZ but lived in Oz for roughly 20 years. I went for SLIVER.
    Very poor clue. Agree with Verlaine.
    Bon chance with the move, Pip!
  15. Like most others guessed SLIVER with no idea what the rest of the clue was about. Unless we’re missing something this is a dreadful clue

    The rest was easy but like sawbill was irritated by phrases like “primitive telescope”

  16. I can’t see the problem. The Aussie SHIVER with a long I (‘SHeyeVER’) would have a different pronunciation from the thin piece with a short ‘i’. The pronunciations of the defined answer and the cryptic indication don’t have to be the same. Tricky, yes, but fair, I think — and surely not the worst clue ever in The Times!
      1. I maintain the clue is unsound. In a standard cryptic the wordplay should lead to the defined answer; in this clue the wordplay leads to a heteronym of the required answer.
    2. Well yes but it still doesn’t sound like ‘shaver’, in Australian or any other accent!
    3. Whether or not they pronounce it as SHeyeVER, they would still spell in SHAVER! It doesn’t sound like and it isn’t spelt like SHIVER.
  17. But not in Meldrovia for once!

    I believe 22ac is derived from an old nautical term ‘shiver me timbers’.
    When a cannon ball or chain hit the deck of a fighting ship the timbers were shivered – there were splinters everywhere; these little bits of wood were shivers. But they killed a lot of crew. Sharp, small but highly dangerous – just like Australian youngsters!

    True or Bluff?

    FOI 2dn CAMERADERIE

    LOI 27ac NOYADE

    COD 17ac NEUROSURGEON

    WOD 5ac GIMCRACK

    Time a leisured 40 mins

    1. I also got SHIVER and the old sea-dog reference having first thought of SHAVER for ‘youngster’ but the ‘I’ checker forced me to think again. I’ve no idea how Australians pronounce anything so I didn’t concern myself with that bit. Ahah, Jim lad!
  18. Another SLIVER here, with CAMERADERIE thrown in for good measure. Bah humbug! Going by 1a, This puzzle must have been set specially for Verlaine. NHO NOYADE. I still don’t understand how the CH is got rid of in 23a, or alternatively, how the first A is accounted for. I can see M or MARCH for month, and R for end of winter, with RAM for sheep. Otherwise I’m being an angle greater than 90 and less than 180deg. And as for 22a, even if it is supposed to refer to SHAVER, a chip off a block is a shaving. Thanks Pip and good luck with the move.
    1. I couldn’t figure the grass parsing out for ages, either, John, but in the end realised that “Month seeing the end of winter….” is MARch. ie. March is the last month of winter. Sort of.

      Edited at 2019-07-17 09:13 am (UTC)

    2. John, I read it as the month which is at the end of winter (March) in its commonly shortened form of MAR + the sheep. ‘Seeing end of winter’ was another superfluous inclusion (see my previous comment).

      Apologies. Overlapped with S.

      Edited at 2019-07-17 09:19 am (UTC)

  19. 25 minutes of good progress, including constructing the unknown NOYADE, left me with three. I took about five minutes to come up with 10a MOBILE, having to trust that it was also a place in Alabama, at which point 6d MEMOS became rather more obvious.

    Then five minutes pondering 22a—there’s a lot of possible words that can fit in there!—before finally assuming, apparently correctly according to our setter, that “shaver” might conceivably be pronounced as SHIVER in Oz.

    Seemed cruel, given that “shaver” and SHIVER in those senses are words that are both in the “never once heard in real life” section of my Big List of Crossword Words.

    Still, 35 minutes is my quickest for some time, and for that reason I may step back and let others write the letters to the editor.

    Edited at 2019-07-17 09:32 am (UTC)

  20. Lurched over some tricky hurdles only to fall with an unchecked metadada, which I really think ought to be a brief acknowledgement. Reasonable time for me, 22’45, but a dnf nonetheless. I think for ‘shiver’ Anonymous of 7.31 am has a point, but it’s still a touch contorted and ridiculous. A pity, as a rather interesting puzzle otherwise.
  21. 7 minutes for all but 22ac, then another 5 minutes before binging in SLIVER without conviction.
    I’m with v as regarding this as the worst clue I have ever seen in a Times puzzle. I mean it’s just spectacularly awful.
  22. But had to come here for 22a. I’d have thought a shaver was an adult but what am I to know. Can I add my vote for ‘worst ever Times cryptic clue’. Thanks also for explanation of MARRAM which had me scratching my head. Pleased that CAMARADERIE was an anagram otherwise I might have misspelled it.
  23. Further to that, apparently SHAVER is etymologically related to CHAV. Learning new things every day….
  24. 27 mins. As a regular grouser about dodgy clues I was surprised that SHIVER got such a beating. I guess the Australian would pronounce shaver as shy-ver, or shi(gh)-ver. Thence on to SHIVER as in ‘shiver me timbers’. I dunno, it seems okay, and as noted, I’m picky about clues, but I’m also a minnow in this particular pond: if V and Jim – and others – are agin it then it can’t be good 🙂 Thanks Pip.

    Edited at 2019-07-17 10:42 am (UTC)

      1. Probably true, k. The setters usually pin this one on the Cockney accent, don’t they?
  25. I was lucky ; I put in shaver and didn’t check after inserting 13dn but I did the job!
  26. I forgot to say that I thought there were some nice touches in yesterday’s puzzle which I enjoyed up to the moment I discovered I had a typo. As for today’s, I bunged in SHAVER and thought ‘SH-eye-VER, dodgy homophone’, there will be complaints’ but I wasn’t expecting the reaction to be so strong. Possibly because that is exactly how I would pronounce it if I were attempting a cod Australian accent. Not sure I knew that meaning of SHIVER but at last I understand why my wife asks for a SHIVERLING when she wants a particularly thin slice of cake.
  27. “Shaver” for little boy is an Americanism too – at least in the NE US – so I took a chance on SHIVER but I agree it was pretty excruciating. Post solve I came up with a theory that it was originally meant to be “shaver” because somewhere between the setter, the editor and the going-to-press someone got the I and A back to front in ESSENTIALLY and then someone else noticed the switcheroo and made it SHIVER instead. Yes I know that’s waterboarding the clue out of all sense. What with this and the bunny boiler Pip’s had some real doozies lately so I’m a bit nervous about next week. 17.51
  28. Absolute disaster today – I was stuck on LISTERIA, MARRAM & SHIVER for ages at the end, and eventually only got two of them correct (the made-up LISTEMIN and the less made-up SLIVER being my choices). For some reason I went completely blank on listeria, even though I knew what I was looking for – I couldn’t get Listerine out of my mind! Although perhaps I should have kept it there, since it was close to being correct.

    Then, to cap it all, I’d carelessly spelled CAMARADERIE incorrectly. A bad day at the office.

    26a was a very nice clue: simple, but perfectly rendered.

    1. Thanks for mentioning the LISTERIA again! It suddenly prompted me to put two and two together and for the first time work out that LISTERIA is named after Joseph Lister (as is Listerine!)

      Odd, how two things that are fairly obviously related can sit miles apart in your brain without making a connection for ages…

  29. And exactly half of that on the last two clues – marram and shiver. And I thought I might be heading for a personal best! A lesson in how it ain’t done til it’s all done.
  30. Count me as another sliverer. Given that most of us seemed to have plumped (what a wonderful word!) for that over SHIVER, can we not rustle up some pitchforks and storm the ramparts (or whatever one does to ramparts) of the Times?

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