Difficult Quick Cryptics

Author   jackktPosted on Categories Announcement

Yesterday’s discussion of QC 1797 by Felix ran to some 84 items on 3 pages (very rare!) many of which were concerned with the level of difficulty with some saying they feel the puzzles are generally becoming more difficult these days.  I raised the matter in the Times Forum and received this response from Richard Rogan (aka Felix) the Times Crossword Editor which I am posting here for all to see rather than having to scroll back through yesterday’s blog.

From the editor (Felix)

User jackkt posted a query about the difficulty of this puzzle on the Times Puzzle pages and I replied as follows:
Unfortunately sometimes a puzzle comes long which is trickier than most. That is almost inevitable given the fact that the clues are still “cryptic”. It’s never the intention to make one puzzle harder than another. It’s hard for me to comment really on the difficulty, other than to apologise and hope that the less easy ones are the exceptions.
Apologies also for the error in the clue to EASE. A replacement clue will be posted for the online version.
RR

62 comments on “Difficult Quick Cryptics”

  1. The puzzle itself is what is written on the can, a ‘Quick Cryptic’ and should be treated as such.

    I decided not to attempt yesterday’s QC.I didn’t even open it. Looks like I picked the right day! I am getting fed up with the level of the discussion on the blog. I believe the Wyvern poison is spreading – the SCC ain’t really up to scratch. As the QCs are perceived to get harder we now have beyond 80 comments per diem, many lengthy and repetitious. It will be a hundred soon enough!

    With Felix often not really minding the shop, it is becoming rather dull fare, especially with the massed ranks of the QAnons cluttering up the decks.

    I often arrive late to the QC and find it dispiriting to have to wade through yards of tosh, while I am really only interested in the views of the bloggers and Kevin and the Wizards. At the beginning of the week I managed a 4:45 pb – but it’s the etymology (WOD) I enjoy most, and not the turgid moans of the SCC.

    Could not the ‘Times Concise’ be blogged, in order to ease the situation?

    Edited at 2021-01-28 03:25 am (UTC)

    1. Wow. Sneering at the “SCC” strugglers who “ain’t really up to scratch”, whilst laughing at newbies like that “wyvern poison” chap for being so foolish as to use the helpful blogs on here to try and learn how to solve cryptic crosswords. How dare they interrupt your personal discussion with “Kevin and the Wizards” by joining a free public forum and filling it with their “turgid moans”.

      If you don’t like the discussion, don’t read it. If you want a private chat with a few select others that you deem worthy of your consideration then a freely available public forum probably isn’t going to work for you. As it is, this is a public blog that has proven invaluable to hundreds (if not thousands) of crossword solvers over the years. I doubt the admin or the setters and bloggers here would share your view that the Quick Cryptic should be restricted to an elite club of super-fast solvers?

    3. I don’t know why you are getting so cross. It’s very very easy to scroll past posts that you don’t want to read because you think they’re too long , or because they are written by people you don’t rate.

      I sincerely hope that the new member (as in the one you are rude enough to mention by name) quickly learns to scroll past YOUR posts. And that he doesn’t believe that you represent the common view – because you absolutely do not.

      Edited at 2021-01-28 04:58 pm (UTC)

      1. “As the QCs are perceived to get harder we now have beyond 80 comments per diem, many lengthy and repetitious. It will be a hundred soon enough!”

        I believe Horryd is simply concerned that LiveJournal is running out of hard drive space.

  2. I started cryptics with the QC about five or so years ago, and now have a target of 20 minutes, but I do feel that there are more difficult puzzles now than there were a few years ago. I’ve been averaging about one DNF a week recently, including both yesterday and today. I’m not complaining about this, as my goal is to exercise the grey cells and even a DNF does this, but I’m not sure I would persevere if I was starting today.
    Perhaps the stated main aims of the QC, ‘to encourage people to take their first steps in tackling cryptic crosswords’, and also ‘to cater for those of us who have limited time’, are incompatible in a single series of puzzles. Would it be possible to run an ‘easy’ cryptic alongside the ‘quick’?
    The depth of comment in the forum shows that the SCC, who are almost certainly in the majority, are not happy with the current level of difficulty of the QC.

    Brian P

    1. I didn’t realize that this was one of the aims of the QC; it shouldn’t be. I doubt very much that there are many solvers who do the QC instead of the 15×15, rather than doing both and thus taking more time.
      1. Apologies if I have misunderstood your comment, but does the blog not show that there are a lot of solvers like me who, at their own gentle pace, do the QC and not (or not regularly) the 15×15? That number appears to be growing, and they are blogging to share that.
        I entirely accept there must be a lot of 15x15ers who will enjoy the QC as a pleasant warm up, or cool down, from the main event, but I suspect there are now far more QC only solvers and that is what is coming across in the increasing numbers who are finding the inclination to comment. Whether there could be a “newbie” blog and a separate “wizards” blog might be a separate consideration.
        1. I was afraid I’d invite misunderstanding of a badly written comment. What I meant was that–although there are plenty of QC solvers who don’t do the 15x15s, and plenty who do both–there aren’t many who do the QC rather than the 15×15, to save time. I do both, thus taking more time that could well be spent, say, cleaning the kitchen.
          The QC is meant for ‘newbies’; there’s no reason for a separate blog for ‘wizards’.
          1. Sorry I didn’t follow. Got you now. One day I may improve to the extent that I can fit both into 24 hours, alongside the rest of life! Kind of you to respond, thanks.
        2. Ian, I was a little surprised when I read that comment and wondered if I’d misunderstood but I see you are reading it the same way, so perhaps not. I agree there is clearly a huge uptake of new contributors who only do the QC and that has given me an additional reason to enjoy TfTT each day, as it’s always a joy to welcome new blood. I don’t see any virtue in having separate blogs for newbies and ‘wizards’. Those who don’t want to read what others have written are welcome to just scroll by.

          Edit: Ah, I see that Kevin has just clarified his point and I now agree with it wholeheartedly.

          Edited at 2021-01-28 12:30 pm (UTC)

  4. Hi all
    The aim of the “Quick Cryptic” (possibly a contradiction in terms) is simply to provide a puzzle that is easier (and slightly smaller) than the main puzzle, and in doing so hopefully tempt more people into the main puzzle, although there are many who enjoy the QC for its own sake.
    It can’t really be primarily a puzzle for coaching total beginners, as by definition it would have to follow different paths for different people.
    As it is, experienced solvers will enjoy the “Quick” side and others may wrestle more with the “cryptic” side. As soon as you start putting anagrams, wordplay, devious (tho hopefully not overly so) definitions into clues, even ones that are meant to be easier, you immediately start creating fences for people to leap.
    That said, it is never a bad idea to check occasionally to see if those fences are creeping up in height.

    What is “SCC”, by the way?

    RR

      1. I like to think of it as Savouring Cryptic Clues…. We chew and savour them rather than gulping them down and rushing on to the next. The slowness is incidental ; ).
  5. The Quick Cryptic in The Times and The Toughie in the Daily Telegraph are attempts by each paper to estabish ground in the other’s territory with regard to levels of difficulty. I know because I set for both papers. Nominally the QC is supposed to be for Telegraph solvers coming over. Obviously some will solve one Times puzzle, some the other, and some both. For my part I try to make Izetti easier and I hope todsy’s Izetti is easier than the main puzzle which (by chance selection of the editor) I also set. Many cryptic clues would fit in eitehr puzzle but there wil be simple ones in the QC and hard ones in the main puzzle. Overlapping levels of difficulty may help QC solvers to progress in time.
    1. Thanks, Don, I thought today’s 15×15 might be by you. I always solve the QC first and the main puzzle immediately afterwards and usually I notice a distinct change of style, but I didn’t today.

      Just to confirm I found the main puzzle more difficult than the QC by a long way, but even as a seasoned solver and TfTT blogger I struggled a bit with today’s QC. I normally reckon on 8-10 minutes but this one took me 17.

    2. Really interesting to see the comments on the QC and the Telegraph. I do both those every day, using the Telegraph as a bridge to the main Times puzzle which seems a bit step up from the QC.
      1. I must admit I was surprised to read Izetti’s comments about the DT puzzle. He’s on the inside both there and The Times so is surely party to information that we are unaware of but I don’t see why the QC would be considered a stepping stone from the DT puzzle to the Times. The difference in level of difficulty between the two 15×15 puzzles is marginal, though of course the quality of the clues is far superior in The Times 🙂 so anyone capable of completing the DT must already have a pretty good understanding of how cryptic puzzles work. Part of the QC’s brief from the start has been to help new or less experienced solvers to acquire this knowledge.

        Another factor would be cost. Both The Times and DT exist behind a pay wall; how many people are likely to take out a subscription two newspapers on the basis that they want tackle both puzzles.

        Edited at 2021-01-29 07:20 am (UTC)

        1. I agree that cost is a factor for daily XWords. I enjoy the Torygraph QC but only do it when I can pick up the paper free in W-rose when shopping. John
  6. Thanks for opening up this discussion Jackkt, which inspired me to go back and finish today’s QC (see my comment on Roly’s blog). My view is that we have had a run of about two or three weeks where several QCs have been significantly harder than we are used to. It appears, from comments made by Felix and Izetti (I thank them both for their contributions) that this is not the result of any editorial change in policy, but we have seen the trend reflected in our own personal times, so the trend must be real.

    Sudoku puzzles are regularly graded, from simple to heinous or similar, and my first thought was ‘can’t cryptic puzzles be similarly graded?’ However, I imagine, due to their subjectivity, deciding on such a grade would be problematic, unless arrived at by a panel of solvers. Maybe the best measure of difficulty available is our own blog!

    There has been sufficient noise over the last few days on here that the editor and setters have shown that they are aware of our concerns, so I look forwards to a string of faster times and easier solves, as scored by the Rotterometer.

  7. For the record, I found today’s Izetti QC quite difficult, taking over 18 minutes for the second day running!
  8. It’s great to have feedback from setters, editors, bloggers and (nearly) everyone else.

    The QC definitely met my needs as being a Gateway into the 15×15 and Cryptic Jumbo. Although I don’t have the time to attempt the 15×15 most days, I feel that I could get 75% of it in 75 mins. This was certainly not possible before I got serious with the QC.

    So the QC, along with this blog are an effective, enjoyable and sociable way to learn a new craft in these locked down times.

    My only suggestion is that maybe the QC could retire some of the “tired old chestnuts” (regular readers know my pet peeves: SA, IT, PI, GUY, U).

  9. Speaking as someone who has been doing the QC for quite a few years now, I can confirm that it has succeeded in a) getting me hooked on crosswords and b) enabling me to finish the 15×15 — sometimes even on the same day that I started it 🙂 To that end, the occasional ‘hard’ QC is a benefit, but the margin between hard but fair, and hard because obscure is a crucial one. Invariant
  10. it’s the “quick” cryptic, not the “easy” cryptic. I have never done the main puzzle in less time than the QC, so by that token, the QC lives up to its name.

    When I started doing the QC, no.1, I had been learning for 3 or 4 years on the main puzzle, with help from this blog. Back then a puzzle would take 15-20 minutes on average, with quite a few DNFs. Now I aim for 6-7 minutes and genuine DNFs (i.e. not due to fat fingered typos that wouldn’t happen on paper) are very rare – despite logging one yesterday. That’s objective proof that actually, the QC is getting easier. 😉

    What has actually brought that time down is practice, and the time I take on the QC has fallen in the last year as I attempt more and more cryptic crosswords, here and in the Guardian, where I believe Izetti sets as Pasquale. Simply put, I have become more proficient in “crosswordese”. I don’t really look at a surface anymore, but start translating, and trying to fit the translation into the grid along with any checkers.

    Anyway, I now find my “sweetspot” (i.e. a challenge but not impossible) is a 15×15 with a snitch of 100-120, which I’ll finish most of the time, but it’ll take 40-45 mins.

    For most, perserverance is the key; failing, learning, failing. Unless you’re verlaine, mohn, magoo, who I think were born rather than made…

  11. I guess I am a fully paid up member of the Slow Coach Club. I rarely complete the QC, and it usually takes me an hour or more to not complete it. I think my quickest full solve is 48 minutes.

    I seem to have been mentioned a couple of times in earlier posts of this blog. I am not sure why, or whether the mentions are supposed to be a dig or insult towards me.

    Are there people here who are offended by my not being able to complete the QCs, and for taking an hour or more to do so? :-S

    1. Dear poison wyvern,

      Please ignore any spiteful comments you might have read here. They are not, I am sure, representative of the general feeling in this group.It’s wonderful to have new members. You are finding your way forward and asking for help and guidance and there are many people in the group who love to provide the answers you seek.

      Speaking for myself, I am not even slightly offended by your not finishing the QC – why would anybody be? I didn’t finish it either today – and it’s nobody’s business how long it took you.

      My advice to you is to scroll past posts which seem to be a bit mean.

    2. Don’t let it worry you. Everybody’s contribution is valued by somebody because the audience for these blogs covers all ranges of ability. I’m sure many newbies share your frustration at not quite getting there (yet), and indeed it’s quite possible that you have already helped a few of them with your ‘3 lives’ technique. Invariant

    3. Just ignore them and keep commenting. We SCC members must stick up for each other!
      This blog may originally have been for elite solvers only but that just isn’t the case now.

      1. That may well have been the case for the 15×15 blog when this site started, but to my mind the purpose of the QC blog has always been to help the less experienced solvers. It is true that many seasoned solvers continue to contribute regularly to the comments but that is to share experiences. It is rare for me personally, as one of them, to need to come here to get an explanation to a clue or a missing answer, but I still visit most days to see what others thought of the day’s crossword and share the delights of appreciation of the setter’s skill.
    4. Keep going, take no notice of negative comments and enjoy the journey — one day you’ll report an amazing PB and we’ll all be cheering you on 😊

      Edited at 2021-01-28 11:06 pm (UTC)

    5. Don’t be put off by the rude and spiteful comments. I really enjoy hearing your experiences which, I suspect like a lot here, reflect their learning curve on the QC.
    6. My advice to beginners is not to worry at all about finishing. Instead set a time limit – say, two lots of 15 minutes with a gap in between – and do what you can in the time. Then come here and look at any answers you didn’t get.
      This has the advantages of saving some time, of not sitting for ages contemplating your failures and of learning from the blog about any you didn’t get.
      It is just as easy to see if things are improving or not
  12. I quite like it that the crosswords are sometimes easy and sometimes hard and sometimes somewhere in between. Obviously, I prefer to be able to solve them – and for that not to take longer than half an hour – but if they were always dead easy, I don’t think I’d ever improve.

    I don’t attempt the 15 x 15 and I doubt if I ever will because I see the (to me) incredibly fast times that people achieve on the QC and then see that these same people might take half an hour on the 15 x 15 – which means that, if I had a go, I’d be at it until a week on Tuesday…Consequently, for me, the QC isn’t a training ground for the Biggie – it’s just fun in its own right.

    Incidentally, while I’m here, I would just like to say that, unlike one of the commentators in this thread, I LOVE the blog and the posts. I really enjoy reading what people have to say.There are several in this group that, though I wouldn’t know them if I passed them in the street, still I feel a connection to them. It’s a privilege to feel a sense of belonging here.Thank you.

    1. I completely agree, louisajaney! You put that really well.

      I have got to the point where I can do the 15×15 but I choose not to, because I am busy and doing the QC, reading the blog and writing my own comment occupies just the right amount of time for me. It is fun in its own right and I enjoy the variations. (I do a 15×15 or Jumbo at the weekend, when there is more time.)

      Templar

      1. That adds to Louisa’s balanced, helpful comment and describes my own position perfectly, Templar. A Quick crossword, read the early blog, add a few words on the blog, get on with the day, and do the 15×15 when I feel like it and know I have the time. John M.
    2. Maybe it’s just me, but after doing this for a while you get to know who roughly completes things about the same time you do (and what they enjoy/struggle in the puzzle) — so it’s always fun to see how those people get on each day.

    3. I so agree with you regarding variety of ease / difficulty, Lisa. I do generally finish the quickie these days but don’t think I’ll ever get much faster than an average 12 minutes, and frankly I’m not fussed. It’s fun to stretch the brain muscles, and a super fast solve is a rare treat but not the aim — in fact I’ve stopped measuring the seconds. I also don’t beat myself up if I can’t finish, and neither should anyone else feel bad if they don’t.

      I don’t work now so have the time to have a go at the 15×15, where success is very variable, to say the least!

      Rogerbear’s comment about how the blog has changed since its earliest days makes a very good point. On this side at least, it seems much less competitive and far more supportive, and long may that continue 😊 Penny

    4. Louisajaney, super post.

      One thing though, keep an eye on the “snitch” for the main crossword. It estimates the difficulty of the crossword by looking at the time taken by reference solvers. There’s a link on the right of the desktop site. If a particular day is in the 55-65 range (Monday normally), do have a go. Save it for the weekend when you might have more time. You’ll surprise yourself.

    5. I agree about the need for variation.
      See my reply to poison wyvern above .. I reckon that anyone who expects to solve the QC in 20-30 minutes can also solve perhaps a half of the main cryptic too. You can easily find out using a time method rather than a completion method and not waste a whole day ..
  13. Once upon a time I used to try the 15×15 on a sporadic basis and sometimes finish but was bemused when I couldn’t and not understand some of the answers. Then, one day, I discovered there was a new Quick Cryptic and I started doing it, enjoying that it was easier. And then, trying to find out why an answer was what it was, I stumbled upon this blog. It and the Quick Cryptic helped me immensely over the years to improve my skills such that I now consider myself an experienced and quite competent solver. It is my privilege to get to blog the QC once a fortnight and attempt to repay my debt to those who have helped me in the past. I also continue to do the QC not just as a warm up to attempting the 15×15, but for the joy of it in its own right.
    As for difficulty levels… from my own solving times recently, on average, the puzzles have been a little harder although there are still a few I whizz through. As louisajaney said too, I think a spectrum of difficulty is best, but maybe we could have a few more easier ones to encourage the newcomers. As a blogger and amateur QC setter I’ve come to know how difficult it is to judge the level of difficulty. My thanks then to Richard and team of QC setters who provide us with such a good range of easy to intermediate level difficulty crosswords for us all to enjoy.

  14. Thanks so much for opening up the comments on this. I find it all fascinating. I’ve been doing the QCs for a few years but am rather sporadic, and busy with work and children so they do hit that perfect spot for me between a challenge and time. I do find it a bit frustrating when I have a time window and can’t make much progress, but I generally blame myself and my own lack of consistency rather than the setter. It is very reassuring on those days to come on to the blog and see that others have struggled too. I do like it when someone flags an easy 15×15 to attempt and will often print those out to try over the weekend. Thanks to all the setters, bloggers and fellow travellers for your comments and explanations.

  15. Really interesting debate. I am relatively new having attempted the QC casually for a couple of years and made progressing to the 15×15 my lockdown goal. I now finish the QC most days, although I can count on one hand the sub 20m. Personal record 15m.

    To be honest I assume the level of difficulty is personal. If I am struggling then I tend to find walking away for a bit hugely helpful. The puzzle doesn’t get any easier – I am in a better frame of mind!

    Some days the answers of 3/4 of the grid fly in, leaving me a tough final few that stop my times improving. I release aids in order – iPad Chambers Thesaurus, iPad Chamber Dictionary (look up), Chambers Crossword Dictionary (best Christmas present), iPad Chambers Dictionary (word pattern tool), this blog, Most days I now don’t need to go very far at all into this hierarchy.

    Progress towards the 15×15 is satisfying. Rather than tackle (and fail to finish) today’s I am working through a jumbo book of 200 puzzles. The good news is I can take several days to complete one, the bad news is I don’t have this blog to help when I have biffed blindly,

    Improving my skills has been a huge pleasure, enhanced enormously by this community. I just don’t care if I finish or not – there hasn’t been a puzzle that I have not enjoyed!

    1. Yes you do have the blog to help. Did you say Jumbo? If you put in the search box in the top right hand corner “times_xwd_times jumbo ” you should find the blog for the crossword you are solving somewhere in the hits.
      1. Thank you, but I think I used the word Jumbo inappropriately! My book is “The Times Big Book of Cryptic Crosswords Book 1: 200 world-famous crossword puzzles” and I cannot find a link. Several of the real “jumbo” books are listed – starting about volume 9. I meant jumbo as in hefty 🙂
        1. I should have realised that. The same thing applies, though. Your book may tell you what year they are from and you can put that, e.g. “2014” instead of “jumbo” to narrow the search. Or once you have found the first one you can use that one’s year. As long as they are from later than Nov 2006, they should all have been blogged on TfTT, although I have found a couple of omissions as I’ve worked through Big Book 6.
  16. As a newcomer to the QC I find the constant claims about how easy it is somewhat discouraging. ‘Easy’ is a subjective concept and I,for one, have little or no interest in how other participants find it.

    If contributors really are regularly finishing the QC in, say, 7 minutes, why bother doing it? there can be minimal intellectual stimulation.

    I would be interested to know that the rules on anagrams are. After all, we all know there are web sites which will give you anagrams of any word or phrase. Are they verboten and if so is the verboten rule faithfully observed?

    1. Thanks for your interest. We like to make newcomers welcome but it’s rather difficult unless they provide a name or pseudonym for us to engage with. Anons come and go all the time.

      Saying that you have “little or no interest in how other participants find it” and questioning the motives of those who enjoy our discussions might suggest that this is not the most suitable forum for you, but first impressions can be misleading and I hope you find something of interest here that will encourage you to stick around and perhaps become involved in our activities.

      With regard to anagrams I’m not entirely clear what you are asking, but if you would care to expand on it I shall be pleased to try to deal with your query.

    2. I agree with you about the rapid solvers who make a song and dance about how slow they were when they have finished in 5 minutes. Others post their quick time but have more constructive things to add. They are often interesting and insightful. Sadly, the odd nutter prefers to be inciteful (is there such a word?) but they are best ignored. Most posters are sincere, honest, constructive, and interesting and make for an unusually helpful and entertaining blog.

      Re your second comment: yes, why would a top class sprinter run round his/her garden just to post a time and tell the world when they had knocked half a second off it?

      Third point. I trust that solvers don’t use these aids or, if the do and post a comment, that they come clean and mention it. Quite a few posters do this. I have no problem with that as part of a learning strategy but it would be underhand to claim a time and not be open about using aids. That said, I occasionally work out an answer logically and find a word I do not know. Ambo (last week) provides an example and I did look it up to check it was actually a word. John.

      Edited at 2021-01-29 02:12 pm (UTC)

    3. Horses for courses. If I can’t see the anagram in a QC, I will leave it and come back a bit later when there are more crossers in place. For the 15×15, I’m still at the stage where I often need the anagrams to get a toe-hold going, and I can’t really depend on getting any more crossers. In that case I will use something like Andy’s if I can’t see the answer.
  17. I have a very limited vocabulary – in fact English is not even my first or second language. Needless to say I DNF 80% of the time up to now but every time I DNF I try to remember the words that I NHO or meanings of words I DNK. I think learning new things from these crosswords is by far the biggest benefit for me, way more than caring about how fast/efficiently I fill in the grid. Now of course if you are one of those super solvers your perspective will be completely different, but for most of us I think it is just better to forget about some of the quantitative aspects of the puzzles.

    For what it’s worth I of course DNF 3 days in a row, but for different reasons:

    Wed: Couldn’t see ANTIHERO but also tripped on the VLAD/LIMPET crossing – a case of tricky word plays
    Thu: NHO DACHSHUNDS/PUNCHY/UNHINGED, PUNCHY is way out of my reach but DACHSHUNDS I should have been able to come up with just from world plays and how German words work.
    Fri: quite a few words I am not familiar with but I was able to come up with most of them, eventually defeated by REINDEER since I do not know what Rudolph was and the clue featured very tricky word plays.

  18. Doing a crossword in a foreign language is very impressive. I hope you understand my tip of the hat. 😉

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