Times Quick Cryptic No 2858 by Jalna

97 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic No 2858 by Jalna”

1. 13:46 I wanted RAISED THE ROOF for causing trouble but unfortunately the letters on offer didn’t agree.

2. Held up at the end with SHAKO which is a word that always seems like I’ve never heard of it despite it showing up in crosswords regularly. I always think of TOQUEs as being chef’s headwear. Looking it up to check it is a word in English and not just French, I see it is also a macaque. I’m sure one day that will be in a crossword!

3. I saw some of the letters of police station in force people in, so I put it in half-thinking it might be an anagram. Since all the down clues worked, I never looked back. I also saw shadow cabinet right away, and biffed rock the boat with only two checking letters, so I had a lot to work with. I did struggle a bit with no-show and the Andes, slowing me down a bit at the end.

   Time: 8:41

   1. I actually found this pretty tough but got there in 33mins with one error along the way. Couple of guesses… SHAKO, TOQUE and POTASH are all fairly obscure and left me shrugging my shoulders. Notwithstanding, a fun challenge.

4. I have to say I found this pretty straightforward today with the exception of 18d, where I bunged in PRIMO before remembering 11 is a prime number.
   Thanks J and setter.

5. All good fun, 9.40 with SHAKO taking a bit of time at the end. TOQUE was also a challenge for those of us failing to see it was an anagram until late in the piece. Thanks John, thanks Jalna, Rocky Marciano indeed, great clue.

6. 16 minutes. It has really come to something when a perfectly ordinary word like ‘nigh’ has to be qualified by ‘no longer’ in a clue! Yet in the same puzzle the same solvers are expected to cope with unusual words such as SHAKO, and TOQUE which is not even clued with reference to its most common surviving meaning as a chef’s hat. All very odd.

   1. I agree. In what sense is ‘nigh’ obsolete? Slightly old-fashioned, perhaps, but still in frequent use.

      1. I agree, especially still used in the expression ‘nigh on’. But I take Kevin’s point that ‘no longer’ may have been an intentional misdirection.

         1. I also agree, but it seems the dictionaries don’t. And, for better or worse, we usually have to default to them. Even if, as in the case of Chambers, they are about as up-to-date and progressive as Edwardian headgear! 🤷‍♂️

   2. ‘No longer’, of course, invites the reading of ‘not close’, the opposite of NIGH; grounds for the setter including it, I suppose, and for the solver to want it removed. I for one started by thinking ‘not close’, not ‘formerly close’.

   3. I’ll take that as sympathy – thank you!

7. 13:30
   Another train solve, this time on Dutch Rail (completed by Breda). As a hat fan, wearing my bowler today, was pleased to see 3 hats in the puzzle. I also can never remember SHAKO, but know what it looks like. My LOI, didnt see HAS as the anagram.

   Put ITALIAN in for the language (“what else fits”) before deciding I should parse it, and what do you know? IRANIAN fits as well.

   SHADOW CABINET is a great anagram. COD and tip of the hats to Jalna (TOQUE, SHAKO, TIARA)

8. 7:55.

   Enjoyable, gentle puzzle. COD ANDES for the deceptive surface.

9. I didn’t understand the Edwardian part of TOQUE, but the Q settled the matter. (I spell the sweet ‘licorice’, but that’s not enough letters.) Once again sluggish: 8:24.

10. Feeling nicely energetic after a bout of seasonal ailments I made a cracking start on this with POLICE STATION going almost straight in – we’ve got an RAF base near by so I almost went for ‘bomber command’. Slowed by two of the hats. Chastened to hear they come up regularly but then I’ve only been doing these since 2009 (period tip of the hat to Colin Dexter whose book got me going) . Annoyingly slow on ANDES and that further frustrated SHAKO. Enjoyed seeing AGHAST emerge. Ended up all green in a pleasing 12.06.

11. Started with 1a which we saw immediately then a nice steady solve with lots to enjoy on the way, particularly Americano, brilliant surface. NHO shako but had the S so the word play gave us that or sahko, thankfully guessed the right one.
    All going well with only aghast unparsed (thanks John!) until for our LOI we assumed 11 was a reference to 11 across. As that was NHO we were stumped so biffed prize, got the DPS, tried price then clang went the penny for prime at 15.35

    Thanks Jalna

12. 12.20 – NHO Toque or Shako but worked them out eventually – vocabulary expanding again!

13. Slow to get started but once I got my eye in I had no major issues.
    I always remember SHAKO from the Sharpe books but TOQUE was new to me so I was grateful for the very kindly cluing.
    Started with ADDRESS and thought I’d finished with SCORPIO until noticing that I hadn’t filled in TIARA in 8.01. COD to AMERICANO.
    Thanks to John and Jalna

    1. I also have Sharpe to thank for knowing SHAKO! Just as well, too, as I suspect that I’d forget it instantly if I only came across it via crosswords.

14. For the second day running I seem to have done a different puzzle from everyone else, as I found this very tough, taking 18 minutes to struggle to a completion, far from all parsed. I have no idea what is Edwardian about a TOQUE; the internet tells me that toques “were popular from the 13th to the 16th century in Europe, especially France. They were revived in the 1930s; nowadays, they are primarily known as the traditional headgear for professional cooks” which has no connection with Edwardians that I can see. I have also NHO a SHAKO – fortunately the wordplay and checkers rescued me here – and could not parse NIGHTIE, where as others have commented the “no longer” seems not just redundant but wrong – nigh is a perfectly good word still in use (“the end is nigh”), and a clue reading “Close match for item of sleepwear” would not only have worked and been shorter, but to my mind been better as well. I also misread the clue for PRIME, reading “11, perhaps” as referring to 11 Across – I thought when numbers were written in digits, the convention was that they referred to other clues.

    On the other hand I did complete the puzzle, there were some very nice clues (hat tip to Rocky Marciano – great surface) and the weekend approaches. So not all bad despite not being even close to Jalna’s wavelength here.

    Many thanks John for the blog and I look forward to the Sunday Special.
    Cedric

    1. Me too, Cedric, I stuttered and stumbled my way through this, and slowly.
       Bunged in Police Service at 1A and as SHADOW CABINET and IRE fitted in the downs, it was some time before I realised it wasn’t right.
       Overthought NIGHTIE for the same reason as others, odd wording. Generally enjoyable, so a tip of several hats to Jalna, especially for the coffee.

    2. I also tried to cross reference 11a when trying to solve PRIME but put it down as a clever bit of misdirection.

    3. I agree about Edwardian but it’s mentioned in the first of four definitions in Collins as a particular style that came into fashion then. The chef’s hat is the last of the four, but I still maintain it’s the best known one.

    4. Collins sense 1: “a woman’s small round brimless hat, popular esp in Edwardian times”.

       No, me neither.

15. Police service was a write in ….. until it wasn’t. Thanks all for your comments and explanations. Every day is a learning day.

16. Thanks John and Jalna. 14:37 for me. An enjoyable crossword, which took me briefly to Brum, where ‘ bye for now’ is ‘tara a bit’ and got me thinking that in crossword land a livelier form of public transport in that city would be ‘buzzier’. But it would be brave, and perhaps unfair, for setters to steer away from Cockneys dropping Hs when playing with British regional pronunciation. Perhaps they sometimes do, but I’m a relative newcomer.

17. 18.04 (Trevithick demonstrates first steam locomotive on rails at Penydarren Ironworks)
    I found this anything but gentle. Only three across clues at first pass, then a struggle all the way to the end. Not helped by entering LIMESTONE for 2d.
    SHAKO familiar from the Richard Sharpe novels.
    LOI PRIME delayed by thinking I needed a word that meant the same as SHAKO.
    COD to SHADOW CABINET.

    Thanks John and Jalna

18. I didn’t fare very well on the first pass through the clues, but cleared up everything on the second pass. Although my time was relatively quick, I thought this was quite tricky for a QC.

    FOI SHAKO
    LOI AMERICANO
    COD ROCKED THE BOAT
    TIME 4:42

    Having had the pleasure of test driving the Sunday Special, I urge as many of you as possible to have a go at it. Without giving anything away, I promise you that the NINA is absolutely brilliant!

    1. Thanks for the reminder. Printed off for Sunday.

    2. Thanks. It took me quite a long time to get a grid fill that worked without any difficult words to clue or clues to solve, so I hope it is enjoyed by many.

19. A trawl around the interworld led me to toadshakos.co.uk: I am strangely delighted that shako making is apparently a surviving craft. I now want one. I see they also make top hats, so Cedric may be interested. No mention of toques, however, although they can do you a bicorne if you are feeling particularly flamboyant.

20. Gentle? Didn’t enjoy this at all. Seven to the bad, and even those I did get I either didn’t enjoy (bunged in with shrugged shoulders) or didn’t understand. NHO either piece of headgear. The two long anagrams were good, though, very clever.
    Are the “signs” of the zodiac also called the “houses” of the zodiac? NHO that.
    There is no such language as Iranian; it’s called Persian, or Farsi.

    1. Yes I wondered about that, good point. As for the zodiac, I recall the song from Hair about the moon being in the seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars (or something). That’s what got me home.

       1. When the moon is in the seventh house
          And Jupiter aligns with Mars
          Then peace will guide the planets
          And love will steer the stars!

          This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
          etc…

          My parents had the LP, and as a junior Wombat I listened to it often. Got me into a spot of bother singing one of the songs in the playground at primary school, as the first word is “Sodomy” and it then continues in a similar vein.

    2. Collins:

       “2. a branch of the Indo-European family of languages, divided into West Iranian (including Old Persian, Pahlavi, modern Persian, Kurdish, Baluchi, and Tajik) and East Iranian (including Avestan, Sogdian, Pashto, and Ossetic)
       3. Also: Persian, Farsi
       the modern Persian language”

       You can’t buck the dictionaries, Martinů!

       1. With respect, I would say that yes, Iranian is a branch of languages (just as Teutonic is), but not itself a language. I reckon I’m agreeing with the dictionaries!

          1. Have another look at entry number 3 …

             1. OK I concede defeat – sorry to waste your time.

    3. I too had a big grumble about Iranian as a language. To me, that’s plain wrong.

       1. Your sympathy is much appreciated – thanks. But here dictionaries – with all their flaws – are unfortunately king. And I suppose it’s reasonable that a concrete, definable source – even if it isn’t perfect in everyone’s eyes (for nothing is that) is accepted as the ruling authority. Nothing to be done; except that we can continue to enjoy our little gestures of rebellion. I raise a glass to you.

21. I was out yesterday so only attempted Joker’s very hard QC late on.
    This was easier but hard work for all of the 13 minutes it took me. This QC yielded to a bit of experience and effort but I share some of the views above about NIGH.
    LOI POTASH where I was trying to biff POTENT.
    I liked the 11 misdirection in 18d.
    SHAKO I’ve seen before, probably recently , as it came to mind quickly with the checkers.
    And knowing nothing about TOQUES helped; someone at The Times must think they are Edwardian.
    COD to SHADOW CABINET.
    David

22. I found this the easiest for a while, despite not knowing SHAKO. I biffed then parsed nearly all the clues which is very unusual for me. I remembered TOQUE from a recent weekend crossword (the Sunday GK one I think). Briefly thought ‘11’ was a cross-reference before seeing the light. Had to write out POTASH. Liked the surface for AMERICANO. Many thanks John.

23. 14:03 for the solve! Wasn’t thinking it was easy as it took me until USE-UP to get started but when I got POTASH on the Downs I saw POLICE-STATION and that began to open things up. Pleased to end up with this time on a Jalna puzzle which I felt I was struggling with. I enjoyed BUSIER and the AGHAST acrostic. NHO SHAKO so had to trust I’d understood the wordplay as that went in fingers crossed at the end.

    All 5 weekday puzzles successfully solved in 1hr06 which is about as good as I’ve done. Still haven’t cracked the hour but maybe in 2025.

    Have a good weekend those who aren’t back tomorrow (and Kevin) 👍

    1. Great result for the week 👏👏👏

24. 7.56. Sped through this, but I shall have to go back to appreciate the parsings.

25. POLICE STATION jumped out at me, and not seeing 8a immediately, I tackled its danglers, which yielded CHEAPEN, ANDES, IRE and NO-SHOW. LICORICE then led to TOQUE. POTASH took a bit more thought as POTENT got in the way. A while later PRIME brought up the rear. Liked BUSIER. 7:29. Thanks Jalna and John.

26. This was far from gentle for me.

    21 minutes.

    1. Did you make your weekly target for the first time this year?

       1. Yes, thankfully 😊

27. 8:13

    Slow to get going – just three in from the first pass of acrosses – things improved with the entry of several down answers. Fortunately, heard of TOQUE as a chef’s hat before, and SHAKO probably from around these parts. Nice misdirection with house = SCORPIO – as I am one, I am ashamed to have taken so long to see this 😁I thought AMERICANO was very good.

    Thanks John and Jalna

28. I didn’t think this was gentle by any means. My experience was much the same as yesterday – slow throughout. However it wasn’t as impenetrable as yesterday’s which allowed me to reduce yesterday’s 29 minute solve to 22 minutes today – a more comfortable chair in the club perhaps. Couldn’t parse TIARA (thanks John) but eventually understood everything else. A MER at the clueing of IRANIAN as a language as per Martinu’s comment above. I enjoyed the tussle though; there were some lovely surfaces and misdirections.

    FOI – 10ac SCORPIO
    LOI – 15dn BUSIER
    COD – 12dn AMERICANO. I also liked the very clever SHADOW CABINET anagram at 4dn

    Thanks to Jalna and John

29. I think I am about to give up on these. I find difficult what others call a stroll in the park. Very dispiriting. I did not think this an easy puzzle NHO. house of Scorpio, and as already mentioned Iranian is not a language. As it happens I got the answer. Just not fun to be reminded by those that finish in minutes how stupid I must be.

    Over and out

    1. Tim, I don’t know how my time today looks to you, but I’m an experienced solver and have been writing blogs here for 17 years, yet I didn’t find today’s puzzle easy by any means. Take a look at yesterday’s QC comments, the later ones in response to Gary. They contained some great advice for those who feel they are failing. You may find them helpful.

       1. The day before yesterday.

          https://timesforthetimes.co.uk/times-quick-cryptic-no-2856-by-orpheus#comment-447048

       2. Thank you

    2. Tim,

       I more than anyone know just how you feel.

       I find it very hard to record times here which are slow in comparison to many other posters.

       As you will see from other comments, I have been fortunate to receive a lot of advice when feeling like you.

       Although I find it hard to accept, I know the advice is correct and that the people who post here are mainly very experienced and speedy setters. They do not represent the reality, which is that there are many, many people who attempt the QC and never get anywhere near the times that you and I can achieve.

       I hope you keep doing these puzzles. Despite my frustration with them, I continue to try. Don’t give up!

       1. Thank you for the positive response

       2. Gary – I’ve got to say that there are plenty of people here who aren’t very experienced or speedy, as the SCC members and several newcomers will testify. There are also a lot of people in the middle range who stick mostly around the 10-20 minute mark which seems to be where you are. Many have tried to encourage you.
          It’s also worth noting that quite a few people don’t register their times at all. But the big thing – as so many have said before – is to enjoy having a go. No-one is making any of us do this!

          1. Hear hear.

    3. Just because some people finish in a few minutes does not make you stupid! It just means their brains work in a different way. If you stick at it and get the right answers, you should congratulate yourself on your perseverance and tenacity, whatever your time. If, however, you don’t enjoy the ride, that’s a different matter.
       Much as I love word puzzles, I found the Lexica games less than fun, so, rather than bang my head against the wall, I just moved on to games I do enjoy.

30. 6.01

    Really liked this with a nice cryptic (1a) and a couple of excellent anagrams (CABINET and BOAT).

    Loved Merlin’s comment about the shako. I have absolutely no idea what it looks like but it was straight in from its previous appearances (and to be fair Sharpe too).

31. Far tougher than yesterday’s for me and pushed me miles into the red zone. Must be a wavelength thing.

    I thought I hadn’t heard of LOI TOQUE at all until reading Jack’s helpful reference to a chef’s hat. I was thinking military forces at 1a for a while (in fact in desperation I started wondering about Star Wars before I got POTASH and the P solved it). I should have got POTASH sooner, as a gardener, but I recoiled from the clue thinking it was some obscure part of the periodic table. “Resting place” for INN didn’t come to mind, it took me ages to see which bits of 23a were the anagrist, and I stuck with EAT UP for far too long even though it wouldn’t parse.

    So all in all not my finest 11 minutes and 44 seconds for 1.4K and a Slow Day. Well played, Jalna; thanks to you and John.

32. That was tough +++.
    Used aids at the end. NHO toque or shako. I also had not heard of the term “houses” used about zodiac signs.
    Couldn’t parse several clues and just guessed.
    Didn’t feel like the usual level of QC.

    Took me an hour.
    Thanks for blog.

    1. Just checked the quick snitch. Currently showing (only) as 100. Oh well.
       (Hope I am not giving too much away, but snitch on 15×15 is eye-watering at 181. Think I will give that a miss!!)

       1. The grown up crossword has been remarkably generous for the past 2 weeks (6 sub 80s in the snitch) and I’ve managed 4 complete solves in that time. But today’s is now 185! I think that makes it the hardest ever? No thank you.

    2. Yes, this was one of my worst attempts in weeks. I got about four before resorting to the reveal button.

       I’ve only been doing QCs for about 3 months, and frankly I just never got into this one at all.

    3. 🎶
       When the moo-o-o-o-n is in the seventh house
       And Jupiter aligns with Mars
       Then peace will guide the planets
       And love will steer the stars
       🎶

       (Hair)

       [Oops, pardon me Wombat! I’m reading the comments backwards, obv.)

33. Living in Belfast, has blind-sided me to know the Tara slang for goodbye. Is it used often? I know ta-ta.

    1. Cilla Black always signed off her TV shows with “ta-ra”

       Oh, the shame of remembering this . . .

       Philip

34. Unlike our blogger I think we had only two across clues in on our first pass and, though we recovered somewhat we finished with LOI TOQUE in a substantially below par 15:10. We were also misled at first by the ‘no longer close’ in 14d and, though we had the construction right, we were looking for the wrong sort of house in 10a for quite some time. At least SHAKO was quite familiar! Thanks Jalna and John.

35. A tip of my (grey, Penn Bogart) hat to those of you who started with 1ac – I was about half way through a 19min solve before the checkers gave it away. Shako and loi Toque were both unknown, and of course the rabbit hole lure of the cross reference to 11 in 18d had me puzzled for quite some time. I also lost time trying to squeeze Cast into 16d, so the eventual sub-20 was a pleasant surprise. CoD to 22ac, Tiara, for the surface and Black Country memories of ta-ra for now. Invariant

36. As others above, surprised to find 20a Iranian is a language, and discovered that related languages can be called Iranic. Iranic added to Cheating Machine. I thought the Iranians spoke Persian, but now know that that, aka Farsi, is a Western Iranian language. Well, well.

37. I was AGHAST to see our blogger’s description of this as a “gentle” QC as, for the third day running, I had to graft for 40+ minutes before crossing the line.

    The top half of the grid proved especially difficult including, as it did, three NHOs – the Edwardian headdress (TOQUE), the military cap (SHAKO) and the astrological sign (SCORPIO) referred to as a ‘house’ – and a full-width clue at 1a (POLICE STATION) that required all seven checkers before revealing itself.

    ROCKED THE BOAT also held me up for some time, partly because I initially had ROCKEt as the first word. ADDRESS was my FOI and NO SHOW my last.

    Many thanks to Jalna and John.

    1. Oh dear. I describe in the blog only how I found the crossword and generally fail to spot the things less experienced solvers might find difficult. Maybe I should stop saying I found any crossword to be not too hard.

       1. Dear Mr Interred,

          Thank you for your reply, but I think you (and all of your co-bloggers) should continue to let us all know how you easy or hard you found it. Don’t worry about how we might feel as, according to Mrs Random, we should just man-up and do better.

          My AGHASTment (there’s a new word for you) shouldn’t dissuade you, as we all respond differently to each day’s challenge. It may be the other way around next time and I might escape the SCC (an occasional occurrence) and you may be held up here or there and record a relatively slow time for you.

          Good luck again tomorrow!

       2. It’s sometimes a little dispiriting to struggle mightily with a crossword and then see it described as an easy one. On the other hand that’s our problem rather than yours, and you’re doing all of us a great favour by providing the blogs in the first place, so I think you should all opine as you see fit.

          I’m coming to the conclusion that the things which us less experienced solvers find hard are often not the same as those which you clever clogses find hard, so I think the lesson is that your estimations of difficulty are perhaps of less relevance to us than to your peers.

38. Definitely not easy taking exactly 50 minutes.
    I was about to give up in the NE with neither 1a or 1d but after a long break and two strong coffees POLICE came to mind (I had biffed STATION) and the others followed: POTASH, LIQUORICE and TOQUE.
    Fortunately knew SHAKO from military history stories but nho TOQUE.
    It is worth persevering as there’s a great sense of satisfaction in finishing.
    Thanks Jalna and John.

    1. Sorry that I said I thought it easy when many people didn’t find it so. FWIW the horrendously difficult 15×15 today took me 40 minutes and I thought exactly what you said… “It is worth persevering as there’s a great sense of satisfaction in finishing”. Thanks for that.

39. 12.12 with no errors, which is my second quickest Jalna so quite pleased with that. I too was unfamiliar with TOQUE and SHAKO but the wordplay was very helpful with both. As someone who first got interested in astronomy aged 8, I have frequently come across “houses” as references to the astrological signs of the zodiac. Lots to enjoy today making it hard to pick a COD but I’ve chosen AMERICANO with honourable mentions to POLICE STATION,SCORPIO, ROCKED THE BOAT, SHADOW CABINET and ANDES. Thanks Jalna and John.

40. Five – semi-biffs – think of a potential answer then see if it fits the clue.

    Missed shadow cabinet….

41. 17 mins…

    Guessed 8ac “Toque” (for all I knew it could have been “Tuqoe”) and had my fingers crossed for 11ac “Shako”. Is Iranian a language? I thought they spoke Farsi.

    Overall though, a good puzzle from Jalna.

    FOI – 1dn “Potash”
    LOI – 2dn “Liquorice”
    COD – 2dn “Liquorice”

    Thanks as usual!

42. DNF Disaster. Deffo not gentle. Not on the wavelength.
    But thanks, John.

43. 12.53 A lovely puzzle. Early on I biffed BENCHES for the second half of SHADOW CABINET but it sorted itself out. I’ve probably seen SHAKO before but I don’t remember it. PRIME, BUSIER and ROCKED THE BOAT took several minutes at the end. Thanks John and Jalna.

44. 7.59 and all green. Plenty of biffage and a couple of NHOS so will enjoy going back over it for full parse.

45. About half way through i was thinking it’d be a DNF, but reminded myself it was a Jalna. Sure enough, all done eventually!
    Nice one Jalna. Thanks, and thanks in advance to John.

46. 16:22 of entertainment. Mostly accessible, but I was baffled by POLICE STATION, NIGHTIE (I agree jackkt, “nigh” is still in my vocabulary), and TIARA (knew “ta” but not “tara”), so needed the blog. Actually I still don’t really “get” POLICE STATION, obviously people on a force work there but still.

    COD SHAKO for the surface image.

    Thanks to Jalna and John!

47. When our bloggers mention that a puzzle is on the easy side I prepare myself for a struggle. But I was on the wavelength for once and enjoyed it a lot, finishing in 14:18.

    Thank you for the blog!

48. Got about half on big puzzle, although I haven’t checked the answers yet.

    Very hard!

    1. Woo! Well done on that. Today’s was about as hard as they come and many experienced solvers gave up.

       1. Thanks John

49. Quite tough today I thought as I staggered across the line in 14.53. Having said that, I don’t think I was in the right frame of mind, having waited on hold to SSE energy suppliers for no less than one hour and twenty minutes without anyone answering. The only voice I heard was an automated one saying how important the call was to them, and that someone will be answering your call shortly! Fat chance as it turned out.
    My total time for the week was 49.12, giving a daily average of 9.50, just inside target. I started the week so well and then got progressively slower as the puzzles got harder.

50. It’s taken a while to click with Jalna, but I seemed to be on his wavelength today and really enjoyed this, finishing in 8:36. It’s been a week of ups and downs so far – I wonder what tomorrow will bring 😅
    Ticks next to POLICE STATION, ANDES, LIQUORICE and SCORPIO (not just because I am one!). I’d better stop, so many great surfaces today, but ROCKED THE BOAT gets a special mention – what an anagram, what a surface, but pipped to the post by MrB’s preferred coffee format for COD!
    FOI Police Station LOI and COD Americano
    Many thanks Jalna and John

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