27766 Thursday, 10 September 2020 Questa o quella per me pari sono

Author   ZabadakPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Another in my series of Puzzles That Took Longer Than Perhaps They Should, occupying me for almost 30 minutes, but I liked it a lot. Throughout the surfaces are clean and plausible, and the wordplay offers a good variety of methods for getting to the answer, which I hope I have made plain enough in my analysis.
I’m particularly appreciative of clues like 5d, which draws all its bits out of its common subject matter, and 20 across which is as succinct a synopsis of an interminable book as you would want to see, while behaving as an immaculate piece of wordplay.
We even have a cheeky bit of commentary on contemporary politics at 13ac, which of course the setter can innocently claim is purely wordplay.
Some may struggle with Foreign Words Clued By Anagrams (5d again), but at least today’s bird is not particularly obscure.
I do clues in italics, definitions in underlined italics, and solutions in BOLD CAPITALS. Enjoy.

Across

1 Former railway food in the buffet? (6)
PASTRY Former: PAST, R(ailwa)Y. I lost time here assuming the attractive surface of the buffet car was disguising some sort of blow.
4 Short time “visiting” jug? That’s interminable bird! (8)
FLAMINGO The short time is MIN(ute) which finds its way into a jug masquerading as a FLAGON, which itself loses its end (interminable)
10 Like some roads teen idler vandalised (4-5)
TREE-LINED An early anagram (vandalised) of TEEN IDLER
11 Daughter with bad back and slouch (5)
DROOP D(aughter) plus POOR for bad back(wards)
12 Try getting front off organ (3)
EAR To HEAR is to try in court, lose the front
13 Sterility of inadequate policies embraced by Civil Service (11)
CLEANLINESS Inadequate policies are LEAN LINES, and the embracing Civil Service lends its initial letters. I initially looked for a more negative version of sterility
14 Instant benefit, getting hold of singular hair styler (6)
MOUSSE Instant is MO, benefit USE, and S(ingular) is inserted
16 Draw dustcart, taking back bottles (7)
ATTRACT Another rather good surface, this one concealing a reversed hidden indicated by back (again) and bottles. DusTCART TAking
19 Surprising movement in platform in Embankment? (7)
DADAISM Chambers offers “a short-lived (from 1916 to c.1920) movement in art and literature which sought to abandon all form and throw off all tradition,” So rather well defined here as a surprising movement. DAIS for platform is enclose in DAM for embankment
20 Sam and Frodo together did finally get gold here (6)
MORDOR Those familiar with the Lord of The Rings will be alright here, selecting the last letters of SaM, FrodO togetheR diD and adding OR for gold, for the place that the Hobbits got the gold ring to to destroy it
22 What labs might do for unstreamlined transport (3-2-3-3)
SIT-UP-AND-BEG bicycles feature handlebars which keep the rider in an upright position rather than bent forward, so more affected by opposing winds. LAB(radors) (and other dogs) might equally be trained to sit up and beg if you’re either lucky or Barbara Woodhouse
25 Revolutionary English, say? I’m surprised that’s heard in Ohio (3)
GEE Just E(nglish) and EG (say, for example) reversed (revolutionary) Ohio is a random state picked from the 50 to indicate it’s an American usage
26 Girl blowing a million in the States (5)
ERICA Caused me most trouble because I couldn’t get away from Eliza. If only I’d done the obvious thing and realised that the States is just AMERICA It would have been easy to knock off a M(illion) as instructed
27 Rolling account left unpaid (9)
BILLOWING If your BILL is OWING, it’s unpaid
28 One who tolerates free furs being distributed (8)
SUFFERER Our second anagram, (being distributed) of FREE FURS. This is suffer less in its meaning as painfully undergo and more in the Authorised Version “suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not”. Many parents in lockdown over the last few months might argue there’s precious little difference
29 Threaten troublemaker with ruin (6)
IMPEND Trouble maker IMP, ruin END. Simples

Down
1 Basil perhaps gets bowled out in bit of trouble (6)
POTHER Most often encountered these days as indistinguishable from bother, but with different etymology. Basil is one of many POTHERBs from which the B(owled) (cricket, of course) is outed.
2 What may be offensive clothes get wrapped in foil, perhaps (9)
SWEARWORD Another which took way longer than it should. WEAR stands in for clothes, and SWORD as indicated by foil wraps.
3 Revered object priest installed in church (5)
RELIC The priest is the commonplace (in these circles) ELI, and church is (rather less commonly) represented by R(oman) C(atholic)
5 Verdi aria from noble Amelia mad about Carlos, perhaps (2,5,1,6)
LA DONNA E MOBILE Stuff you don’t need to know: Amelia is a courtly character tormented by love in Un Ballo In Maschera by Verdi, and Don Carlos is a separate opera by the same composer. The aria La Donna comes from Verdi’s Rigoletto. None of that matters other than that it shows a certain elegance in the setter’s –um- setting. An anagram (mad) of NOBLE AMELIA surrounds that DON. Here’s Luci singing the thing.
6 Shivering time with wind, right? (9)
MIDWINTER Rather a neat &lit, an anagram (shivering) of TIME, WIND and R(ight)
7 Beak retaining old form of capital punishment (5)
NOOSE Beak is NOSE, and O(ld) is retained therein. It would be good to say that it’s an old, obsolete form of capital punishment, but many countries still retain the practice.
8 Work needed on Post Office location over the road (8)
OPPOSITE Work OP(us) P(ost) O(ffice) and location: SITE
9 Long without drugs, initially ecstasy, not allowing a fix? (14)
INDETERMINABLE Long is represented by INTERMINABLE, and D(rugs) (initially) and E for ecstasy are inserted, without being the inclusion indicator in its sense of outside
15 Reportedly auction unmarked aircraft (9)
SAILPLANE Today’s Perfectly Good Homophone (reportedly) of auction SALE and unmarked PLAIN
17 What scalene triangle must have adjacent (9)
ALONGSIDE A scalene triangle as three unequal sides, one of which therefore is A LONG SIDE, natch.
18 Greek hero’s body is as Zeus decapitated (8)
ODYSSEUS Another in our series of execution methods, but really rather clever. bODY, iS aS zEUS are all decapitated
21 Failed to answer what some eat for breakfast before rising? (6)
BEGGED As in the question. Some might have an EGG for breakfast, and if they have it before rising, they have it in BED
23 One getting time if he messed up? (5)
THIEF Another with an &littish flavour, the “messed up” anagram being of T(ime) IF HE
24 Good to take on threatening shape in darkness (5)
GLOOM G(ood) plus LOOM for take on threatening shape.

56 comments on “27766 Thursday, 10 September 2020 Questa o quella per me pari sono”

  1. This all looked opaque at first glance, so very much enjoyed clearing it all up… well, I didn’t finish parsing 22, the bicycle part. We have BEG in two answers, and “interminable” as well as INDETERMINABLE; I know setters who assiduously avoid such repetitions, but I think that’s a bit neurotic. Surprised to see the definition of DADAISM, but it alludes to a sensation Tzara, Arp, Ernst & Co. were certainly striving to elicit. For COD torn between the gory tale of the Greek hero and the elegant &lit; for MIDWINTER.
  2. Not too hard, but nothing like as “on wavelength” as yesterday. All correct but no time since I went and cooked dinner and we ate it. I ought to suspend the solve but I’ve had too many bad experiences where it won’t come back again. And “begging the question” is something else than failing to answer, it assuming the answer and then using that to show that the answer is correct.
  3. I biffed the aria mainly from the enumeration and MORDOR from OR, and never bothered to look into them until after submitting. NHO the bike, which I also biffed; ‘labs’ went right past me. Liked BEGGED, inter alia.
  4. thanks Zabadak for parsing 21d BEGGED; it was cleverer than I thought.
    “What labs do” went over my head for a long, if not 9d, time. The B-G at the end had to be BUG, surely for the vehicle , and labs might research antibiotics to deal with them….. All Horryd’s fault for mentioning VW beetles a few days ago. Nice pdm when the canine lab surfaced.
    28:25
  5. I found this tough but enjoyable. I briefly wondered if there was a bird called a priminso, thinking that jug might mean prison but for a change I managed to dispel an erroneous notion quite quickly. Elsewhere I was pleased to see “What labs might do” and instantly think of dogs though it still took some crossing letters to think of the bike. LA DONNA E MOBILE needed all the crossers before being solved. MORDOR is more at my cultural level.
  6. So much for my half-hour run this week: forty eight minutes for this one, with a bit of biffing and hoping along the way, including my LOI 18d ODYSSEUS, which I never managed to parse. Thanks for the explanations!
  7. …Upsoars, and darts into the eastern light…

    After 30 mins pre-brekker I had Mousse, Dadaism and —-plane left.
    Couldn’t see benefit=use, the right sort of ‘movement’, and I don’t know my planes.
    Thanks setter and Z (great blog)

  8. GEE, I am again a SUFFERER of GLOOM. I have BEGGED for fewer birds but for some INDETERMINABLE reason the OPPOSITE occurs. A SWEARWORD IMPENDs. I do wish they’d FLAMING GO!
  9. 36 minutes for all but one answer – at 21dn. I thought EGG had to be in there somewhere but couldn’t see the rest of the wordplay and eventually I must have forgotten that idea because I bunged in HEDGED based on the definition ‘failed to answer’. It was particularly annoying as we had another clue relying on the ‘in BED’ ruse very recently, in a puzzle I blogged myself iirc.

    Previously I’d had a delay after putting GHOST at 24dn, thinking HOST might just about stretch to mean ‘take on’ (a bit of an ask!) with ‘threatening shape in darkness’ as the definition. Getting IMPEND at 29ac drew attention to my error.

    Edited at 2020-09-10 06:13 am (UTC)

  10. Slow start then picked up pace. Enjoyed Donna on her cell and DADAISM. Would ‘pull’ for ‘draw’ have made the surface better in 16a?
  11. 33 minutes with LOI ERICA, which was too obvious to be noticed. COD to DADAISM for the surprise I felt when I asked myself what would go round ‘dais’ to spell it and found something that did. I think I preferred railway buffets when all you could get was a stale cheese sandwich or a pork pie of unknown provenance, with a cup of tea stirred by a spoon on the end of a piece of string. It’s strange what you can get nostalgic for. Quite a tough puzzle, I thought. Thank you Z and setter.
    1. And the slab of chewy fruit cake in a cellophane wrapper which my mates and I on the school train always called “railway cake”.
  12. 9:23. We saw Travesties, which features Tristan Tzara and DADAISM quite heavily, in its recent run (remember theatre?) so that came to mind quite easily. In my family we refer to mobile phones as ‘donnas’ (I know, aren’t we a scream?) so no problems there either. LOTR is less in my ken but I’ve suffered through one or two of the interminable movies so I have some basic knowledge.
    There are two meanings of the phrase ‘to beg the question’: the one everyone uses, and the ‘correct’ one sticklers will insist on but which they have to explain every time because no-one understands it any more.

    Edited at 2020-09-10 07:38 am (UTC)

    1. One thing I remember from “Travesties” was that Tzara, at least Stoppard’s Tzara, claimed the right to micturate in colors. Alas, neither Tzara’s 1918 Dada Manifesto nor Hugo Ball’s 1916 one makes that demand.
      The thing about ‘beg the question’ is that the widely-accepted meaning is otiose, since ‘raise the question’ is perfectly adequate; while the ‘correct’ meaning (which is the only one I use, nor am I alone) served a purpose. Such is life, of course, but it’s a pity.
      1. Such is language. I’m sure if you thought about you could come up with a serviceable alternative for the old meaning that people would actually understand. 😉
        1. People? What people? Not the ones I speak with, all of whom–that’s all, every single one — use the phrase ‘correctly’. The ones who think it means ‘raise the question’–no doubt largely the same ones who use ‘infer’ and ‘imply’ interchangeably–know where they can stick their interpretation.
          1. You obviously move in very refined circles. I never hear the phrase used in that sense and in my experience most people would not understand it (since they are used to the other meaning).

            Edited at 2020-09-10 10:35 am (UTC)

            1. I’m sorry it was so obvious; I do try to lower myself to the level of the common folk when possible. (For instance, you may not have noticed, but I just belched.) Actually, I never hear the phrase used; I seldom hear English of any sort. But certainly the kids in my set would never ever say ‘beg the question’ when meaning ‘raise the question’.
              1. I have never belched, Kevin, though I may occasionally eructate. Point made? Life is far too short for that sort of fandango.
  13. Felt fairly heavy going but was then reassured by a snitch of 112. Some nice clues in there, I agree with z8b8d8k that the setter has gone the extra mile with LA DONNA E MOBILE and MORDOR.

    COD: LA DONNA E MOBILE.

    Yesterday’s answer: four under par is apparently a condor, did pipkirby really coin it?

    Today’s question: what is Rigoletto’s occupation in the eponymous opera?

    3. Well I definitely won the champagne. It was in the 80s. If it existed in that context before, the Times golf correspondent John Hopkins obviously didn’t know it. Pip
  14. A very strange experience today, as I thought I’d clicked on the Quick Cryptic, somehow didn’t notice that it was the wrong size, and proceeded to solve the whole puzzle thinking that it was rather on the steep side for a QC. In fact, after getting POTHER as my FOI I immediately thought that the vocab was unusually obscure, but still didn’t twig.

    I might try this approach more often, though, because I was done in 6m 29s. Perhaps thinking that it should have been easy helped me…?

    1. Sure we’ve had the same clue for POTHER fairly recently. Maybe even in the quickie. Anyone enlighten me?
  15. Wasn’t too sure about mousse and had no idea about the handlebars – I feel cheated not to have been aware of the latter for so long. 29’28. Liked the construction at ‘begged’.
  16. Definitely harder than yesterday’s – as confirmed by Snit5ch – so I was pleased to come in at just over the half hour. I couldn’t get sit-on-the-bog out of my mind for 22 across – and still can’t. Guessed the aria – mobile means fickle, right? Isn’t the origin of mob the Latin mobile vulgus? I played Bennett once in a production of Travesties at Trinity College Dublin. Great times.
  17. Started off well, with all bar 2d solved in the NW, but then had to hop around the grid to find the lower hanging fruit. Something IN THE BAG haunted me for quite a while until SAILPLANE put me on the right track for the bike. MIDWINTER made me smile. ALONGSIDE and BEGGED also amused me, but ODYSSEUS was the highlight. INDETERMINABLE and then DADAISM were my last 2 in. An enjoyable 37:30. Thanks setter and Z.
  18. ….can be written on the back of a postage stamp. Tolkien will fit into an even smaller space. With a random girl for company, and a carelessly biffed “spearhead” at 2D (I was already grumpy by then) you will all understand that I found this a chore.

    FOI DROOP
    LOI SWEARWORD
    COD BEGGED (almost good enough to redeem the rest of the puzzle – but only almost)
    TIME 20:01

  19. What do you call a tall skinny Spanish bird dressed in pink and cavorting on one leg?

    A Flamingo dancer.

    Yes, I remember the 1970s . .

    1. Reminds me of an old joke which I can’t repeat here…Man walks into a bar with a flamingo on one shoulder and a midget on the other…..
  20. I see Jack was another one who “hedged” his bets at 21d. I only saw it when proofing. There are just a handful of arias I can call to mind so it was lucky this was one I knew. Like others I DNK the bike (thanks Z). Good puzzle. 19.23
  21. Went wrong, had perfectly parsable BOTHER at 1d and a hard to parse BISTRO for 1a. Otherwise did it all in half an hour but didn’t enjoy it much. Liked DADAISM.
  22. I liked Odysseus, and Begged. Didn’t know the term used for bicycle, but I do know quite a few Labs who seem to do nothing else except sitting up to beg so that went in without difficulty. Nice blog, z. Thanks setter, ed
  23. I worried about the spelling of interminable/interminible but chose the right vowel.

    COD: Pother. Great word. I must use it.

  24. On the harder side of average and most enjoyable with some clever stuff, the wintery &Lit probably being the highlight.

    I’m far from being a classical music buff but I know enough to have been able to get the letters of Pavarotti’s kebab van in the right order.

    1. It doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny but a speed solver might reason that B = Bowled and OTHER = out. I very nearly went there myself.
  26. Much happier with this one than yesterday’s. Surprised by the higher snitch.

    PASTRY/POTHER took a little time to get.

    DADAISM was the key to the others around where I got stuck.

  27. After five minutes of alphabet trawling I couldn’t find a better answer than hedged though I knew it must be wrong. Shame because the aria was a write in for me and I knew the bike reference. But I did like the puzzle so thank you setter and Z. 45 mins with the one error.
  28. … by entering BOTHER. Yes I know I can’t parse it either. NHO POTHER, being half the problem. DNK MORDOR either. Looked it up. So anther DNF. Not doing well this week. Harvesting going on apace around me at the moment so I think I’ll go for a glass of Rose in self commiseration. Hey ho there’s always tomorrow. Oh no, it’s Friday!
  29. This continues my streak of finding 15×15 puzzles easier than the quickies! Got lucky that FLAMINGO and SIT-UP-etc were getting without full understanding because it took the blog to fully parse.

    I would have finished in 17 minutes or so if not for two clues, POTHER and BEGGED, which took the rest of the time. Fortunately I was able to put both in confidently!

  30. Didn’t get a hint of anything until 28 ac. Then I gradually accelerated back to the top and finished in 28 minutes. Guess I had to synchronise with the setter. Liked the construction of ‘begged’, and enjoyed the puzzle immensely.
  31. Late solve today. 2 problems Not knowing anything about arias I had somehow heard of this, but took some time to work out that it was DON Carlos, initially I thought the D was coming from mad. That finally gave the elusive E in the middle.
    And then I had the same problem as Jack above with HEDGED. Clever clue because it had me raising EGG and not succeeding.
  32. My slowest for a while at just over 36 minutes but I’m glad I persevered.
    I biffed CLEANLINESS, MOUSSE and SWEARWORD and DNK DADAISM or MORDOR so thanks to Z for the helpful blog.
    I did know the aria and the bike and I smiled at BILLOWING, ALONGSIDE and BEGGED but my COD has to go to my LOI, ERICA, which I’m sure I’ve seen before but it took a long time for the penny to drop today.
    Thanks to the setter for the challenge.
  34. 20:17. Pleased to polish this off in a decent time because there were some chewy bits and I had trouble getting started. Didn’t help that I was sure ‘former railway’ in 1ac was going to be BR. Sit-up-and-beg held out for a long time, the three-letter word at the end beginning with B surely had to be a bus? Apparently not. Evita and Eliza came to mind long before Am-Erica. I’m no opera buff but 5dn was a write-in.
  35. By inexplicably entering “Mousie” instead of “Mousse”.
    Otherwise OK and I thought it was a smart puzzle today. “Begged” took a while to spot.

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